PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive

[FiveFootNinja]

46 minutes ago, Vemsie said:

I wonder what we're gonna see at the August State of Play. We'll probably know what the launch line-up will be. Spider-Man, Astro Bot and Demon's Souls would be my guess, but it would be nice to have a Housemarque game at launch for this gen as well. But they also have Kena, Deathloop and Bugsnax, so they're probably gonna space it out a little.

 

Given the last one was basically their software showcase the next one surely has to have a bigger focus on hardware.

 

I'd really like to get a launch month (ideally a proper date and a price, but I think we may still be waiting for that while MS and Sony suss each other out), some more details on the compatibility with both older games, but also hardware bits like the PSVR, PS4 accessories, etc... (selfishly so I can plan my setup for Star Wars Squadrons properly).

 

In fact some sort of indication of what VR looks like for them over this next gen would be nice. I've been very tempted to drop some cash on a PSVRv2 unit recently as they have said that will definitely work... but with the new camera design, and the fact that the pad doesn't feature the lights their current system uses for tracking, I want to know if there is a whole new approach on the horizon and if so how far off it's likely to be before parting with another few hundred quid.

 

Obviously we all want more quality games to show what the system can actually do. There are several rumours floating about that they still have a couple of decent titles in their back pocket for launch but I'm not sure where that's coming from of how reliable it is. If they do though... God of War 2? More of Elden Ring? Something from Quantic Dream? Wipeout?

 

GoW seems like the big one for them that hasn't been mentioned/seen yet and is definitely something that could shift some launch day units if they had it available or coming soon after launch. I think it's unlikely though.

[pinholestar]

They might tease it but I don't think we'll see a full reveal of a God of War sequel for at least a year or two yet. It's only been two years since the original and with development cycles being what they are these days and it likely to be a very ambitious title, I'd wager on it not being released until around 2022 or thereabouts.

 

It's also a massive feather in their cap that will cause a huge stir when they finally do reveal it, so I can see them saving it for its own special moment at a big trade show or something. They'll also no doubt have a nice plan to unleash their big hitters on some kind of annual schedule, so Spider-Man at launch, Horizon 2021, God of War 2022, something along those lines. Don't want to blow their load all at once.

 

 

[Robo_1]

Really interesting analysis of the PS5 GPU from tech channel, Red Gaming Tech:

 

 

Talks about how the geometry engine works, the RDNA categorisation of the chip, the SSD and IO set up.

 

I'd you're interested in tech explanation and speculation, then it's worth your time.

 

One of the most interesting bits of information to come out of it, is that the modified CU they're using as their audio processor, can be repurposed to do any sort of other processing. Now considering that it packs as much processing power as the entire jaguar CPU in the PS4, that's quite a chunk of horsepower the PS5 has available to it.

[FiveFootNinja]

So what do we reckon to the PS4 Thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS being forwards compatible with PS5?

 

I've not been able to find anything official about it (just a few reddit opinions) and Thrustmaster have ignored my messages to them directly. 

 

My assumption was it probably would work as Sony seem to be looking at the backward compatibility thing in general with slightly more open eyes... however people got burned with the PS3 version being basically the same as the PS4 one except for the firmware chip and were still forced to buy the new one. Not sure.

[Fargo]

My dream day one games would be Demon Souls and GT7, plus a 4K/60 patch for the Last of Us 2. Make it happen Sony! 

[layten]

22 hours ago, Robo_1 said:

Really interesting analysis of the PS5 GPU from tech channel, Red Gaming Tech:

 

 

Talks about how the geometry engine works, the RDNA categorisation of the chip, the SSD and IO set up.

 

I'd you're interested in tech explanation and speculation, then it's worth your time.

 

One of the most interesting bits of information to come out of it, is that the modified CU they're using as their audio processor, can be repurposed to do any sort of other processing. Now considering that it packs as much processing power as the entire jaguar CPU in the PS4, that's quite a chunk of horsepower the PS5 has available to it.

I love how random Youtubers have in depth knowledge of unreleased console hardware. Especially given that a Sony engineer let slip the GPU was a RDNA 1 and 2 hybrid.

The screenshot is from a DM with this guy https://twitter.com/Gavavva/status/1284409882083557376 He deleted the DM but not before people got screenshots.

 

[Pavey]

I've not really been following; what's the story with the PSVR - will it work with the PS5 and be enhanced in any way?

[footle]

50 minutes ago, FiveFootNinja said:

So what do we reckon to the PS4 Thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS being forwards compatible with PS5?

 

I've not been able to find anything official about it (just a few reddit opinions) and Thrustmaster have ignored my messages to them directly. 

 

My assumption was it probably would work as Sony seem to be looking at the backward compatibility thing in general with slightly more open eyes... however people got burned with the PS3 version being basically the same as the PS4 one except for the firmware chip and were still forced to buy the new one. Not sure.

backwards compatibility of controllers, etc. Not confirmed.

[Robo_1]

26 minutes ago, layten said:

I love how random Youtubers have in depth knowledge of unreleased console hardware.

 

Paul is widely considered to be one of the good guys. He's always very clear about what is rumour and speculation and what information has come from his supposed sources. I mean with this sort of stuff, you either take it or leave it. Ultimately we're just filling the time until Cerny sits down with Digital Foundry and we get all the juicy details confirmed. I know you're always very sceptical of these sorts of things (as you should be) but I only share the videos I feel have some degree of credibility.

 

I think it's perfectly possible that some of the more popular commentators have a few sources who work in game development and can fill in a few blanks about the specs based on development kits. Where I become sceptical, is when he talks about yield rates of the APU. I would assume information like that would be limited to a small circle of Sony engineers and wouldn't be common knowledge.

Anyhoo, for those who don't feel like watching the video, I found a neat summary on YouTube:

 

• Github was early silicon testing and not reflective of final PS5 hardware and several features of the GPU were disabled including VRS for this testing
• Github results were very old even at the time of the leak
• PS5 did NOT have RDNA 2 features like Ray-tracing bolted on, this would have been almost impossible from a technical and hardware engineering perspective
• PS5 has custom features which will influence AMD's future Roadmap just as the PS4 did
• PS5 features a highly customised RDNA 2 GPU however has certain features removed because Sony did not find them useful for their console
• The variable frequency approach was not a last minute decision, this is stupid. This feature has a major influence on silicon functionality and system functions.
• PS5 has a more advanced geometry handler than what is featured on RDNA 2 and is found on the PS5 GE block and will be very important for VR as well, this customisation and revisions Cerny has made to the Geometry Engine will be featured on RDNA 3 and the larger GPU caches that PS5 features will also feature on RDNA 3
• PS5 handles mesh shaders differently to the Series X but is pretty much the same
• PS5's VRS (Variable Rate Shading) capability will benefit heavily from the PS5's Geometry Engine and will work very efficiently together
• Microsoft has done customisations on Series X APU but no where near as extensive as the customisations Sony have made on the PS5 APU
• Both consoles will benefit greatly from the IPC (Instructions Per Clock) gains from RDNA 1 to RDNA 2
• PS5 teardown which highlights the cooling solution will be shown sometime in August (Maybe)
• PS5 ray-tracing is done through the RDNA 2 method however Sony has made customisations which allow the ray-tracing to run at different frequencies (take this with a grain of salt)
• PS5's SSD can be updated through micro code and this will allow higher levels of compression if newer compression algorithms are available
• Tempest Engine will be able to adjust it's power budget to divert power to the CPU/GPU and is able to handle tasks other than audio and does a good job of handling certain CPU/GPU tasks
• PS5 has customisations made on the CPU such as unified CCX clusters which will feature on Zen 3 however the PS5 CPU is still a custom Zen 2, this will allow for lower latency when accessing the caches
• Unreal Engine 5 has tech which has not yet been shown off, Lumen is a software based ray-tracing approach however it can be hardware accelerated with PS5's RT cores and maybe the same for Series X
• PS5 spec bump is not likely and RAM bandwidth is not a big issue because PS5 has a very good data compression system as well as cache access
• More revised dev kits of PS5 will be sent out soon but will feature optimisations and better code, nothing major.
• EDIT: PS5’s APU can shift the power budget in under 2ms which is insane

 

Quote

Especially given that a Sony engineer let slip the GPU was a RDNA 1 and 2 hybrid.

 

 

He apparently clarified his comments via a DM:

 

Quote

Inevitably ended in the midst of a fierce controversy, the engineer clarified his statements to make people understand exactly how things are. His new messages, which are also private and unfortunately shared on social media, are very interesting:

"RDNA 2 is a commercial theme to simplify the market, otherwise GPUs with completely random features would come out and it would be difficult for the average user to choose," wrote Leonardi.

"For example, support for ray tracing is not present in any AMD GPU currently on the market. (...) The PlayStation 5 GPU is unique, it cannot be classified as RDNA 1, 2, 3 or 4."

"It is based on RDNA 2, but it has more features and, it seems to me, one less. That message turned out badly, I was tired and I shouldn't have written the things I wrote", continued the engineer, complaining that he received insults for his statements.

 

https://multiplayer.it/notizie/ps5-architettura-rdna2-via-mezzo-rdna1-2-conferma-ingegnere-sony.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

The two statements appear pretty far apart, as fundamentally, the first is saying PS5 is RDNA1 + whilst the second is saying it's RDNA2 + with a bit of -. I'd personally be surprised (not to mention disappointed) if PS5 was largely a RDNA1 design, as the clock gains afforded by RDNA2 alone would see Series X power far, far ahead of the PS5.

That deep dive can't come soon enough!

[Marlew]

51 minutes ago, Pavey said:

I've not really been following; what's the story with the PSVR - will it work with the PS5 and be enhanced in any way?

 

It will be compatible but no further word so far. 

[layten]

5 minutes ago, Robo_1 said:

He apparently clarified his comments via a DM:

I imagine he did once his bosses found out what he had let slip. There have been many leaks that point to a RDNA 1 based design and then he says this... 

[Robo_1]

1 minute ago, layten said:

I imagine he did once his bosses found out what he had let slip.

 

Well if that's the case, they can only keep it a secret for so long!

[layten]

3 minutes ago, Robo_1 said:

 

Well if that's the case, they can only keep it a secret for so long!

It'll be nice to have something other than random youtubers falling over themselves as to why the less powerful machine is actually more powerful because of *reasons*, which is all we have had since the worlds most boring console announcement/whyhdd'sarebadlecture.

[Uzi]

As interesting as the tech rumours can be, I just look at stuff like TLOU2 being made to run on a base PS4 and I wonder what insanity Sony will eventually be able to pull off with much stronger hardware. 

 

For the record I had a 2080ti (a 14tf gpu?) and TLOU2 still blew me away visually running on a pro which has less than a third of the power my pc did

 

Sonys studios will pull off some fucking magic with a proper cpu that ssd and 10tf. Given how halo infinite looks honestly worse visually than some ps4 games I don't think power will be the end all anyway 

[Robo_1]

Just now, layten said:

It'll be nice to have something other than random youtubers falling over themselves as to why the less powerful machine is actually more powerful because of *reasons*, which is all we have had since the worlds most boring console announcement/whyhdd'sarebadlecture.

 

Just curious, did you watch the video or do you just view things like this as a complete waste of time? I mean obviously you know your tech, I'd genuinely be curious if you found anything he said to be implausible. He does seem at pains to come across as neutral, there's no console cheerleading, in fact the video is a pretty dry tech analysis which covers the information he says he has about the GPU design.

 

Commentators like this only get so much rope. If the deep dive comes and it's confirmed that PS5 is largely RDNA1, then his credibility is shot to shit. There'll be another batch to take his place in time for PS6 of course, but if he is blowing bubbles, then given the tech nature of his channel, I think his 70k subs will shrink pretty quickly.

 

1 minute ago, Uzi said:

As interesting as the tech rumours can be, I just look at stuff like TLOU2 being made to run on a base PS4 and I wonder what insanity Sony will eventually be able to pull off with much stronger hardware. 

 

For the record I had a 2080ti (a 14tf gpu?) and TLOU2 still blew me away visually running on a pro which has less than a third of the power my pc did

 

Oh yeah, so much of it is about art direction these days.

 

Maybe I'm just particularly sad, but I love this part of the console cycle, the rumours, the speculation, the leaks. For me it's all great fun.  I know there are some who get super invested in which plastic box wins the power stakes, but I just love watching it all unfold. For all the drama that unfolded last gen about the power difference between Xbox One and PS4, I still think Ryse is one of the most beautiful games of the gen, so ultimately, I don't think it means that much.

 

RDNA1 vs RDNA2 would leave Sony at a serious deficit though.

[layten]

A long, long time ago I worked for AMD (pre ATI buy out), and people who are not NDA'd up the wazoo just wont have the information they purport to have in these 'technical deepdive' video's. I dont have any time for them unless they either come from the OEM itself, can show a verified source or have a history of reliable information.

 

People who are in the know do 'talk', I once let slip some GPU information (early 2000's and it was pixel pipeline count for an upcoming range of GPU's) I knew that wasn't public on this forum before hastily asking for it's removal, but it would be some one very foolish to go public in a video or talk to somebody who would.

 

That's why I think the first DM from the Sony engineer is telling us a lot more than they would like. It was off the cuff when he probably wasnt thinking carefully enough. Unfortunately these days everything gets picked up immediately. Unlike when you could say stuff on what was the worlds second most cuntiest forum and nobody gave a fuck.

[Uzi]

13 minutes ago, Robo_1 said:

 

Just curious, did you watch the video or do you just view things like this as a complete waste of time? I mean obviously you know your tech, I'd genuinely be curious if you found anything he said to be implausible. He does seem at pains to come across as neutral, there's no console cheerleading, in fact the video is a pretty dry tech analysis which covers the information he says he has about the GPU design.

 

Commentators like this only get so much rope. If the deep dive comes and it's confirmed that PS5 is largely RDNA1, then his credibility is shot to shit. There'll be another batch to take his place in time for PS6 of course, but if he is blowing bubbles, then given the tech nature of his channel, I think his 70k subs will shrink pretty quickly.

 

 

Oh yeah, so much of it is about art direction these days.

 

Maybe I'm just particularly sad, but I love this part of the console cycle, the rumours, the speculation, the leaks. For me it's all great fun.  I know there are some who get super invested in which plastic box wins the power stakes, but I just love watching it all unfold. For all the drama that unfolded last gen about the power difference between Xbox One and PS4, I still think Ryse is one of the most beautiful games of the gen, so ultimately, I don't think it means that much.

 

RDNA1 vs RDNA2 would leave Sony at a serious deficit though.

 

Not just art direction I think but the tech skills to squeeze hardware by certain studios. TLOU2 just looks amazing technically given what it is running on.

 

AMD graphics hardware wasn't particularly impressive last gen in the pc space and yet on console you're getting games that have no right to look as good as they should do give the restraints of that hardware. I just can't imagine what studios like naughty dog, santa monica and guerilla will do next only having to worry about one powerful set of hardware and not being held back by a horrible cpu or slow hard disk.

 

I wouldn't worry about the RDNA1 vs 2 vs 3 or something inbetween. I would wait to see what those games will look like and I suspect they will blow our fucking socks off. 

[JoeK]

24 minutes ago, Uzi said:

As interesting as the tech rumours can be, I just look at stuff like TLOU2 being made to run on a base PS4 and I wonder what insanity Sony will eventually be able to pull off with much stronger hardware. 

 

For the record I had a 2080ti (a 14tf gpu?) and TLOU2 still blew me away visually running on a pro which has less than a third of the power my pc did

 

Sonys studios will pull off some fucking magic with a proper cpu that ssd and 10tf. Given how halo infinite looks honestly worse visually than some ps4 games I don't think power will be the end all anyway 

 

Agreed! 

 

As you know, same card here, predominantly a PC gamer, but the most visually extraordinary games I've played have come from the consoles. I don't think there's going to be anything coming out on PC that will ever push the machines like they can do with bags of money and set-in-stone tech to fiddle with. 

 

Cyberpunk looks great and it's looking like it's dead cert going to be an amazing game, but as good as those graphics are I've yet to be blown away by how it looks, yet I see what companies like Rockstar and Naughty Dog did on consoles and just get very excited about the potential of the new consoles.

 

[rafaqat]

37 minutes ago, Robo_1 said:

Maybe I'm just particularly sad, but I love this part of the console cycle, the rumours, the speculation, the leaks. For me it's all great fun.

 

I love this sort of stuff also.  Keep posting stuff like it.  Makes my teeth tingle when they start to dive into tech details either after a teardown or when they make some educated guesses based on snippets they've learned here and there.

 

I don't think his cred would be too damaged if it turned out he was wrong. He just has to say his sources fucked him and he'll try harder to verify next time and on he goes

 

Part of me thinks, no way would Sony go RDNA 1+ unless they were aiming for something pretty cheap. Part of me thinks maybe they've done it again where they get caugh short on something.   The PS3 didn't have a traditional GPU until fairly late in the day, the PS4 was going to have 4gb of Ram until it got doubled late in the day.  They've got history of making the odd misstep here and there.   Their first party content is absolutely amazing though so even when they do fuck up they can pull it back like they did with the PS3.   I don't see MS winning the hardware sales race. Sony just don't have to fuck up and they'll be fine.  Even with an RDNA1+ part they'll be fine .

 

 

 

[teddymeow]

So what does RDNA2 do that RDNA1 doesn't?

[JPL]

1 minute ago, teddymeow said:

So what does RDNA2 do that RDNA1 doesn't?

Twice as much.

[rafaqat]

18 minutes ago, teddymeow said:

So what does RDNA2 do that RDNA1 doesn't?

 

 

Both Sony and MS have customised their version of whatever chip they've got off AMD.   Hence the talk of Sony doing RDNA1+.  They added some of their own stuff to improve efficiency and they've taken some bits off RDNA2 (hardware ray tracing perhaps?).   

 

MS have done the same but sounds like they've started with a RDNA2 base and modified that. 

 

RDNA2 is more efficient for one thing.  50% better performance for the same watts supposedly.  So if you want similar performance to an RDNA2 chip you're going to have to rev it higher and produce more heat.  Which kinda then makes you think about those rumours about Sony pushing the clockspeed up and Cerny saying that clockspeed will be more useful rather than more cores and that they've built a console where the heat output is managed to be a really consistent thing no matter what the workload is.  Given all that chat about clockspeeds, heat etc I'm starting to lean towards Sony being on a RDNA1+ custom chip expecting MS to do the same and then spending their budget on a crazy fast SSD.

 

https://www.gpumag.com/amd-rdna-2/

 

I guess we'll find out back end of the year. Ultimately we're going to have great games to play and maybe Sony gets the price/power balance that appeals.   If they can control the heat output, generate visuals that don't look too different to the Series X and are oike 100 quid cheaper then the mass market will not care whether it's RDNA1 or 2.

 

[JoeK]

If having RDNA1 is in there, then by summoning my inner Sherlock Holmes I can divine that:

 

1: The PS5 could be a nice chunk cheaper than the Series X (in-spite of the fancy ssd)

2: That Sony have watched MS do the whole ‘everything’s compatible with everything’ so any advantages there might be won’t actually be seen for so long as to make it effectively redundant

3: That with top devs, the advantages of RDNA2 are not enough to worry about.

 

There. All done.

 

(I take no responsibility for any of this even being a small amount true. I am an imbecile most of the time). 

 

 

[rafaqat]

4 minutes ago, JoeK said:

If having RDNA1 is in there, then by summoning my inner Sherlock Holmes I can divine that:

 

1: The PS5 could be a nice chunk cheaper than the Series X (in-spite of the fancy ssd)

2: That Sony have watched MS do the whole ‘everything’s compatible with everything’ so any advantages there might be won’t actually be seen for so long as to make it effectively redundant

3: That with top devs, the advantages of RDNA2 are not enough to worry about.

 

There. All done.

 

(I take no responsibility for any of this even being a small amount true. I am an imbecile most of the time). 

 

 

 

Yup.  Entirely possible.   I guess IF there's a big difference in power and features it will be really important to manage the message early on that the differences are small and other system tweaks will make it all go away. I think that's why there's so much talk about next gen SSD speeds.   It's partly about the fact it actually is an insanely fast SSD but maybe it's partly about not focussing on your weaker GPU.  It's what anyone would do.   Emphasis the strengths (SSD and first party big hitters and other system exclusives).    Carry that on past launch with announcements for big new games and some well loved older game remasters and you've got the gamers chomping at the bit.  Winner!  

[footle]

It could all be right, I suppose, including the contradictory stuff. Yields on APUs are presumably price sensitive information at this point though?

[AI]

This article states from the horse's mouth (Cerny) that the PS5 will use a custom RDNA 2 GPU. Why set yourself up for PR 'Flakback' (new word) if you had an RDNA 1 GPU with lipstick on?

 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/rdna-2-sony-ps5-gpu-pc

 

But whatever the case, I'm sure Sony's studios will cope considering what they squeezed out of a base PS4. 

[Alex W.]

It’s amazing that we’re speculating about whether the PS5 is using RDNA 1 based on an obscure internet rumour when Sony and AMD revealed it’s using the RDNA 2 architecture back when they announced the fucking thing.

[JoeK]

Just now, Alex W. said:

It’s amazing that we’re speculating about whether the PS5 is using RDNA 1 based on an obscure internet rumour when Sony and AMD revealed it’s using the RDNA 2 architecture back when they announced the fucking thing.

You’ve been here long enough Alex to know how the game plays.

 

Mass hysteria, delusions and misjudgment are par for the course

 

 

[Alex W.]

I mean PS5 is literally one of the big things used to promote the RDNA 2 architecture on the AMD web site. Even the fucking UE5 demo *on the PS5* is the thing they use to highlight what RDNA 2 can do.
 

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/rdna-2

 

They don’t even have an Xbox showreel on there. Maybe Xbox doesn’t even use RDNA 1. Maybe AMD wants to design a next gen GPU and push it forward through revisions for the next five years and they based it on technology from 2008. Anything’s possible! Magic is real!

[footle]

6 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I mean PS5 is literally one of the big things used to promote the RDNA 2 architecture on the AMD web site. Even the fucking UE5 demo *on the PS5* is the thing they use to highlight what RDNA 2 can do.
 

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/rdna-2

 

They don’t even have an Xbox showreel on there. Maybe Xbox doesn’t even use RDNA 1. Maybe AMD wants to design a next gen GPU and push it forward through revisions for the next five years and they based it on technology from 2008. Anything’s possible! Magic is real!

yeah, but what would an Xbox showreel look like?