PlayStation 5 - Next gen is expensive

[Alex W.]

1 minute ago, teddymeow said:

Does what Cerny day about running at higher clocks mean that if you out a PS4 game in the PS5 and run it at "PS5 spec" then it may not run correctly as the hardware is so much more advanced so, by slowing the PS5 CPU, they can get games to run 100% correctly.

See, I’ve been wondering about this. Microsoft say that the Series X is always running at its full speed even in compatibility mode, and Cerny talked about how the PS5 boosts are extremely large for PS4 games. I wonder if the new hardware can even run at a “legacy” speed; it might simply not be able to go slow enough.

[rgraves]

So, I just watched it again - here's the thing:

 

He confirms that they have "incorporated previous console logic" into the chips, and that the legacy logic is available when the new chip is running in BC mode. What he does not confirm is that the machine can play PS4 games at original specs - he actually says - and I'm going to quote here:

 

"Running PS4 and PS4 Pro titles at boosted frequencies has added complexity. The boost is truly massive this time around, and some game code just can't handle it. Testing has to be done on a title-by-title basis."

 

But here's the kicker for me:

 

"Results are excellent though. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by playtime, and we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5"

 

Surely if BC was baked into the chip, and a 'native-clock' mode was there, he would not need to say that last "almost". It would be here you'd just say they'll all play, and loads of them could also be better using higher clocks or something - hurrah!

 

So - I've just heard it, and it's a masterful class is actually avoiding the point - he has every opportunity in the world to just say - woo, your PS4 library will come with you- but instead he very carefully gives us a guarded statement about how hard they are trying to make sure 'almost all' of the 'top 100' will be there at launch.

 

Whatever the final situation, Sony have been far from clear on this. They are being, if anything, deliberately vague at this point (possibly to buy some time while they continue work on it).

 

 

[Spacehost]

1 minute ago, rgraves said:

It would be here you'd just say they'll all play, and loads of them could also be better using higher clocks or something.

You wouldn't, because if it turns out a couple of big titles aren't able to run on PS5 at launch because of factors out of your control, a bunch of quote-lawyering Redditors would threaten a class action lawsuit for promising 100% compatibility with at least 100 PS4 games.

[FiveFootNinja]

I think it's pretty clear there is a commitment from both that the lions share of current gen games should 'work' on the new consoles. I think the question is what benefits you get from that regarding the new hardware (e.g. increased performance, shines, etc...) and that is more debatable (and will be until it's all out in the open and seen in action).

 

For some this is probably a big deal (probably for the same people that get caught up on frame rates, etc...) and MS certainly seem to be ahead on it from the bits I've read/heard, but that could just be a better package/PR wrap around very similar end solutions. For me however I just want the convenience that if I have a PS4 game I've yet to play, or want to play again, it'll just work without me having to faff about and hook up my PS4. If it looks/works better then that's a bonus, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it if a PS4 game looks like a PS4 game.

 

It's interesting that lots of Xbox fans seem to really champion this and I'm not sure if it's something they actually use a lot, or if it's just something they can champion because it's something Sony have traditionally been bad at. It obviously makes sense for Xbox as they move towards this goal of it being a gaming platform not a hardware choice. But on my Xbox One I've played a whopping 1 BC title this entire generation (and don't feel like I've missed out on any PS3 games) so it's not really a killer feature for me.

[rgraves]

6 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

You wouldn't, because if it turns out a couple of big titles aren't able to run on PS5 at launch because of factors out of your control, a bunch of quote-lawyering Redditors would threaten a class action lawsuit for promising 100% compatibility with at least 100 PS4 games.

 

OBJECTION! He doesn't name the games though - so he'd just say 'they weren't part of the 100' we were referring to. CASE DISMISSED!

[Alex W.]

But we’re back to the point I made which is that Microsoft have said the same things: they’ve incorporated previous console logic in to the new chips, they run at a radically increased speed compared to the original, and they’ve been testing every single game in the previous console library to make sure it works.

 

That Microsoft says “several thousand” Xbox games now work on the new system and Sony says “the vast majority of” the 4000+ PS4 games should work on their system seems like desperately grabbing for a difference that doesn’t exist.

[Spacehost]

10 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

OBJECTION! He doesn't name the games though - so he'd just say 'they weren't part of the 100' we were referring to. CASE DISMISSED!

I'd caveat the fuck out of everything. Gamers get very annoyed when you suggest you'll do one thing and it's not as they imagined.

[Alex W.]

Microsoft even say they they’re fixing games where they encounter back compatibility problems, which suggests, y’know, there are back compatibility problems. I suspect the big difference is that Microsoft probably go to the publisher with a proposed fix and Sony probably threaten to ban the developers’ PSN accounts if they don’t mend it.

 

That’s the sort of difference we should expect to see, and even then probably only on PS4-exclusives. Cross-platform games will probably get BC patched on both systems or neither.

[rgraves]

5 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

But we’re back to the point I made which is that Microsoft have said the same things: they’ve incorporated previous console logic in to the new chips, they run at a radically increased speed compared to the original, and they’ve been testing every single game in the previous console library to make sure it works.

 

That Microsoft says “several thousand” Xbox games now work on the new system and Sony says “the vast majority of” the 4000+ PS4 games should work on their system seems like desperately grabbing for a difference that doesn’t exist.

 

I don't think you're wrong. What I do think, it that MS have been significantly clearer on this than Sony have. They may well be saying the same things, but one of them is saying them with significantly more confidence, clarity, and detail. The other is leaving itself with lots of room to manoeuvre and being almost deliberately vague - it's painting an outline, but coloring nothing in.

[Alex W.]

14 minutes ago, rgraves said:

 

I don't think you're wrong. What I do think, it that MS have been significantly clearer on this than Sony have. They may well be saying the same things, but one of them is saying them with significantly more confidence, clarity, and detail. The other is leaving itself with lots of room to manoeuvre and being almost deliberately vague - it's painting an outline, but coloring nothing in.

What they’ve said is the same as what Microsoft have said. I think I’ve demonstrated that pretty clearly. It doesn’t give them any room to land far away from the Series X in terms of features, except on boosts. (I doubt Sony will have anything like MS’s HDR etc.)
 

Yes, Sony’s messaging about this has been piecemeal. I really don’t think they meant to let on much of anything, given that all we know is from a brief tangent in a discussion on chipset design. But that is terribly unlikely to be by design. Why say that the vast majority of games should work on the system if they probably won’t? Why describe a hardware setup that offers the same BC features as the Series X hardware just to break them or not use them? Why set expectations of near-complete compatibility if it won’t do that?

It just isn’t plausible.
 

Edit - A priori, even without any information on either console’s BC, PS5 BC would be extremely likely to be similar to the Series X BC. They’re very similar systems running games from very similar previous systems. I don’t think that anything Sony and Microsoft have said makes it less likely.

[jonamok]

The PS5 will play Squadrons, TLOU2 and CP2077. I won’t really care what other PS4 games it plays for a long while.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, and Ghost of Tsushima. Thanks @gospvg

[Stanley]

1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

It’s the same commitment that Microsoft have made, using almost the same language (both in terms of numbers and how it’s actually implemented at a hardware level). You don’t have to take anyone at their word, even the laziest approach by Sony (by all accounts the one they’re taking) will give the results they’re claiming.
 

Given the inherent similarities in the consoles underneath and Microsoft’s strong focus on the value-add they’re going to bring to the table beyond just running the games, we’re going to be talking a difference of degrees in terms of what proportion of games run.

 

Edit - Short version, Microsoft are going to completely outdo Sony on BC, obviously, but not through any fundamental failure of BC on Sony’s side. They’ll simply outclass them.

I think this is true but on the other hand Sony have completely outclassed MS when it comes to exclusives, to the point it’s not even funny anymore, hopefully MS can pull it back. 

[Uzi]

Freaking out about the new consoles not being able to play games from the previous gens is like freaking out you can't play pc games in 2020 because you bought them on your older pc a few years ago. 

 

Hardware wise these new consoles are essentially pcs and the old consoles were pcs. They're far more compatible from the offset. They might need to do testing and validation the same way devs do for pc games to make sure it works on a wider range of hardware but it will work. Relax Bois jeez. 

 

[gospvg]

11 minutes ago, jonamok said:

The PS5 will play Squadrons, TLOU2 and CP2077. I won’t really care what other PS4 games it plays for a long while.

 

Add Ghosts of Tshushima to that list and that is my 2020/21 gaming sorted.

[Spacehost]

7 minutes ago, Uzi said:

Freaking out about the new consoles not being able to play games from the previous gens is like freaking out you can't play pc games in 2020 because you bought them on your older pc a few years ago. 

 

Hardware wise these new consoles are essentially pcs and the old consoles were pcs. They're far more compatible from the offset. They might need to do testing and validation the same way devs do for pc games to make sure it works on a wider range of hardware but it will work. Relax Bois jeez. 

 

The difference is that Sony and Microsoft can whitelist titles that are known to work and block the rest, whereas I know I can at least try to run that disc copy of Blade Runner I have sitting next to me on my significantly faster PC without The Man stopping me.

[SeanR]

9 minutes ago, Spacehost said:

The difference is that Sony and Microsoft can whitelist titles that are known to work and block the rest, whereas I know I can at least try to run that disc copy of Blade Runner I have sitting next to me on my significantly faster PC without The Man stopping me.

the shooting gallery won’t load properly...

[Spacehost]

6 minutes ago, SeanR said:

the shooting gallery won’t load properly...

And now I get to spend three to nine hours getting increasingly angry as I try to debug it until I give up and play Apex Legends. As is my God-given right as a PC gamer.

[SeanR]

Dosbox.

[Spacehost]

1 minute ago, SeanR said:

Dosbox.

You're a dosbox.

[Flanders]

I reckon Sony’s weaker messaging on BC is partially because theirs isn’t quite as good, but more so because as the market leader they don’t see it as a huge thing to shout about. 
 

A bit like how PS Now is miles better than it used to be - the actual downloadable game selection isn’t that far off Game Pass - but Sony haven’t bothered to include it in any of their PS5 messaging because they don’t seem to think it’s that important. Which is either foolish arrogance or a good understanding of what’s best for their bottom line.

 

[Superunknown]

1 hour ago, rgraves said:

"Results are excellent though. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by playtime, and we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5"

 

Isn't this because historically Sony have allowed devs lower level access to the hardware than Microsoft who require all hardware access to be via their APIs? So there may be PS4 titles that are adversely impacted by the massive increase in power.

 

The alternative was for Cerny to lie and say "every PS4 game will work flawlessly on the PS5".

[Alex W.]

I had a long hard think at lunch and realised that an implicit premise of my argument is “even Sony couldn’t fuck this up” and now I’m worried I am going to be humiliated in the very near future.

[Alex W.]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Isn't this because historically Sony have allowed devs lower level access to the hardware than Microsoft who require all hardware access to be via their APIs? So there may be PS4 titles that are adversely impacted by the massive increase in power.

 

The alternative was for Cerny to lie and say "every PS4 game will work flawlessly on the PS5".

The quote everyone should be thinking about is:

 

Quote

A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4’s catalog, we’ve devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5.

 

[...]

We have already tested hundreds of titles and are preparing to test thousands more as we move toward launch.

 

[SeanR]

14 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I had a long hard think at lunch and realised that an implicit premise of my argument is “even Sony couldn’t fuck this up” and now I’m worried I am going to be humiliated in the very near future.

hey, at least you get to keep both your testicles...

[Popo]

4 hours ago, Spacehost said:

This. I've got a backlog on my PS4 and being able to play them on PS5 is going to make the switch more appealling.

I’m in the same boat, and being able to play a souped up version of those games is particularly appealing, although I fail to see what that has to do with the Switch. 

[Superunknown]

2 hours ago, Alex W. said:

The quote everyone should be thinking about is:

 

 

Stop talking sense. They should promise the moon on a stick so people can get mad if something doesn’t work quite right.

[teddymeow]

2 hours ago, Alex W. said:

I had a long hard think at lunch and realised that an implicit premise of my argument is “even Sony couldn’t fuck this up” and now I’m worried I am going to be humiliated in the very near future.

 

A bit like when people think "Trump can't possibly win?!" 

 

On the flipside, Jim Ryan has said there's loads still to talk about and still about 5 months to launch so maybe, maybe, MAYBE, Sony are holding back for a huge announcement.

 

"One more thing... PS5 is backwards compatible with every disc based console system ever".

[Superunknown]

That’s the real secret Sega news. Not fog gaming, Mega CD games on PS5!

[teddymeow]

3 hours ago, SeanR said:

Dosbox.

 

No thanks, I only want a single gaming console. 

[teddymeow]

Just now, Phil said:

That’s the real secret Sega news. Not fog gaming, Mega CD games on PS5!

 

You know it!!