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PlayStation 5 - Mark Cerny reveals many details in WIRED exclusive

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21 hours ago, Stanley said:

Hilarious innit, and we all end up buying every console anyway.

 

Not any more. I've not got an Xbone nor any reason to get one.

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3 minutes ago, SeanR said:

 

wireless charging

 

Yeah I'm hoping now that you have it with phones that it will be possible with pads too.

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9 minutes ago, Capwn said:

Something nobody mentions but they really need to sort out the DS pad charging issue. Drives me mad, even when in a period of mainly using the PS4 for tv/movies I find my two fully charged DS pads run out of juice every 2 hours. Have to keep switching and hook them up to the charge cable all the time. When I forget to do this, I often find myself having to use the pad whilst it's connected to a charge cable.

Buy a charge station

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LIDIWEE-Controller-Charging-PlayStation-Indicator/dp/B07HRJCVSG/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=ps4+charging+station&qid=1557312215&s=gateway&sr=8-6

 

(may not be availble in Canada)

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36 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

 

I'd be inclined to buy the official one for a few quid more, it charges from the bottom of the controller so doesn't risk knackering your controllers USB port.

 

Edit: fixed link.

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1 minute ago, petrolgirls said:

 

I'd be inclined to buy the official one for a few quid more, it charges from the bottom of the controller so doesn't risk knackering your controllers USB port. 

Your link apears to be a bit broken...

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58 minutes ago, Capwn said:

Something nobody mentions but they really need to sort out the DS pad charging issue. Drives me mad, even when in a period of mainly using the PS4 for tv/movies I find my two fully charged DS pads run out of juice every 2 hours. Have to keep switching and hook them up to the charge cable all the time. When I forget to do this, I often find myself having to use the pad whilst it's connected to a charge cable.

 

2 hours? I have the pads set to turn off after 10 mins of inactivity.

When I'm watching a film on the PS4, they turn off & I can still enjoy the film. Obviously, if I need to pause the film I need to activate the pad again.

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2 hours ago, petrolgirls said:

 

I'd be inclined to buy the official one for a few quid more, it charges from the bottom of the controller so doesn't risk knackering your controllers USB port.

 

Edit: fixed link.

 

I bought a stand from Amazon that does hold the PS Move dildoes, like the other unofficial one, but uses a little dongle to use the USB sockets, but without putting daily stress on them.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M9ILWT3/

 

I am happy with it so far.

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1 minute ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

 

I bought a stand from Amazon that does hold the PS Move dildoes, like the other unofficial one, but uses a little dongle to use the USB sockets, but without putting daily stress on them.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01M9ILWT3/

 

I am happy with it so far.

yeah thats what I've got. And I've only lost one of the dongles so far...

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I mailed the vendor through Amazon, and they sent me an extra one for free, when I asked if they sold them separately (as I had 3 controllers.) Nice people.

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On 07/05/2019 at 11:40, Broker said:

I'd LOVE for Microsoft to turn up with incredible looking new games and sell me a new Xbox straight out of the gate. 

 

In hindsight, the PS2 gen was a purple patch for creativity. I had all three consoles, and the Xbox was my favourite by 2004.

 

On 07/05/2019 at 13:58, Vorgot said:

It amazes (and scares) me in some ways that companies can inspire such brand loyalty. 

 

I do understand it when you've got a machine that you love, and how that inspires a favourable opinion of its manufacturer. Same with cars, bikes and everything else. But things can soon change, and we don't know for sure if we'll like a company's next product until we have it.

 

I used to love second-hand Peugeots in the '90s, but wouldn't touch 'em now, etc. I've been disappointed with everything this gen, but bought a PS4 as it has the most coverage (and briefly a Switch). I'm open to PS5 and Nextbox now, since Nintendo are out of generational sync and no longer offering comparable power.

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On 07/05/2019 at 14:45, Orbital2060 said:

What playstation exlusives are you guys talking about specifically?

 

I can see how Bloodborne, God of War, Detroit and Astro Bot are reckoned as great games, but the rest of their recent releases? Horizon, Days Gone, Spider-Man, Uncharted 4 are all mediocre games in my view. And there was nothing for like 4 or 5 years - until q1 2017 when Horizon was released. Before that there was Knack and Bloodborne. Am I missing something? I dont get where this idea that playstation exclusives are so great, comes from.

 

And as for the idea that exclusives are so important: when did this become a fact? Havent third party relations always been more important than exclusives to every platform in the business, except maybe for Nintendo in some respects. I think even they are dependant on third party games now for the Switch to be successful, I doubt they would have survived with only their own games on that.

 

So where does this leave Sony now when they dont even attend E3 this year for the first time in history - E3 being the centrepoint of third party networking during the year. They are not going to sell the PS5 on a couple of exclusives alone.

 

Days Gone aside, those are all critically acclaimed games that sold very well. So whatever your personal opinion is, they are games many people like.

You left out one of my personal faves btw, The Last Guardian.

 

As for selling: PS5 will sell on the power of the brand, the fact that many people invested in the PS ecosystem and the exclusives.

 

They don't need E3 to sell 15 million copies of The Last of Us 2, but I'm pretty certain they'll be back next year.

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On 07/05/2019 at 21:53, Orbital2060 said:

 

Go fuck yourself.

 

Apologies for the tardy response to the reports of the post above, but Orbital2060 has now been banned for 72 hours.

 

It seems as if the discussion remained civil afterwards, but as a polite warning please note that the next person who makes a bullshit post like that in the thread will get a week's ban.

/mod

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A GDC talk about the technical specs of Insomniac's Spider-Man game was posted recently, gives some useful detail on how that game works under the hood, but it is most definitely not for the average consumer to understand. It's an interesting peek into what it takes to make a modern openworld game and just how crippled things are by the storage subsystem in terms of both disk access and streamable size.

 

It also gives a baseline number for the comparisons made by Mark Cerny about how much of an improvement the PS5 brings to the exact same game.

 

 

 
 

 

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Would it be uncharitable for me to suggest that the increased size of the resources will eat up that speed advantage? Is this a development that’s really expected to change the experience, or just a way to keep storage speed in balance with everything else?

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1 hour ago, JohnC said:

https://www.engadget.com/2019/05/20/sony-playstation-5-immersive-seamless/

 

Something about 10 times faster loading and a comparison in loading complex scenes between 4 Pro and 5

 

 

SSD's are fast...but they're not that fast.

 

I still think it will come with a traditional Hard Drive (2TB) which will cache data to a small (128-256Gb) NVME M2 SSD type storage in the background. You could basically store an entire game in the SSD, ready to load anything you want at 3-4GB a second type speeds.

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3 hours ago, MpM said:

 

SSD's are fast...but they're not that fast.

 

I do have to laugh at the claims some people like to spread about how magical SSDs are in terms of loading speed of games to the point that I think they can't be trusted to reliably measure the difference.

 

Take NVMe SSDs, on paper they have a upto ~700% linear transfer rate advantage, and maybe upto double random small block transfer advantage over a normal SATA SSD, which in itself has a 100X small block and 500% linear transfer rate advantage over a mechanical drive.

 

Given these oh so impressive penis comparisons, most people would be forgiven for expecting SSDs to be able to load games in the blink of an eye... ;)

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Is it safe to assume that with Sony not bothering to show up for E3 that there's little chance of PS5 releasing next year? Or is it more likely they'll announce at TGS or something instead?

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On 21/05/2019 at 15:04, PC Master Race said:

Someone needs a better computer. 

 

No matter how much you spend on your PC, the ability of any commercially available SSD to make games load way, way faster is inherently limited, even if you go for the nuclear option of stuffing some server class motherboard with a shitload of RAM and dumping the entire game into memory, which is the fastest storage sub-system available.

 

Feel free to prove me wrong with proof that you can make game loading improvements which scale with storage bandwidth as they don't. For most current games, you can get a meaningful improvement over a mechanical drive, but nowhere to the extent you would get if doing a simple large file transfer, which is about the only thing which does scale in practical terms with storage bandwidth and the only large realworld advantage of a NVMe drive at present.

 

 

gofreak at ResetEra dug up some patents from 2015/2016 which might give some clues as to the secret sauce Sony could apply to finally unleash the extra bandwidth and massive IOP advantage solid state storage has for games:

 

 

Quote

Here are the hardware changes the patent proposes vs a 'typical' SSD system:

- SRAM instead of DRAM inside the SSD for lower latency and higher throughput access between the flash memory controller and the address lookup data. The patent proposes using a coarser granularity of data access for data that is written once, and not re-written - e.g. game install data. This larger block size can allow for address lookup tables as small as 32KB, instead of 1GB. Data read by the memory controller can also be buffered in SRAM for ECC checks instead of DRAM (because of changes made further up the stack, described later). The patent also notes that by ditching DRAM, reduced complexity and cost may be possible, and cost will scale better with larger SSDs that would otherwise need e.g. 2GB of DRAM for 2TB of storage, and so on.

- The SSD's read unit is 'expanded and unified' for efficient read operations.

- A secondary CPU, a DMAC, and a hardware accelerator for decoding, tamper checking and decompression.

- The main CPU, the secondary CPU, the system memory controller and the IO bus are connected by a coherent bus. The patent notes that the secondary CPU can be different in instruction set etc. from the main CPU, as long as they use the same page size and are connected by a coherent bus.

- The hardware accelerator and the IO controller are connected to the IO bus.

 


 

Quote

 

At a software level, the system adds a new file system, the 'File Archive API', designed primarily for write-once data like game installs. Unlike a more generic virtual file system, it's optimised for NAND data access. It sits at the interface between the application and the NAND drivers, and the hardware accelerator drivers.

The secondary CPU handles a priority on access to the SSD. When read requests are made through the File Archive API, all other read and write requests can be prohibited to maximise read throughput.

When a read request is made by the main CPU, it sends it to the secondary CPU, which splits the request into a larger number of small data accesses. It does this for two reasons - to maximise parallel use of the NAND devices and channels (the 'expanded read unit'), and to make blocks small enough to be buffered and checked inside the SSD SRAM. The metadata the secondary CPU needs to traverse is much simpler (and thus faster to process) than under a typical virtual file system.

The NAND memory controller can be flexible about what granularity of data it uses - for data requests send through the File Archive API, it uses granularities that allow the address lookup table to be stored entirely in SRAM for minimal bottlenecking. Other granularities can be used for data that needs to be rewritten more often - user save data for example. In these cases, the SRAM partially caches the lookup tables.

When the SSD has checked its retrieved data, it's sent from SSD SRAM to kernel memory in the system RAM. The hardware accelerator then uses a DMAC to read that data, do its processing, and then write it back to user memory in system RAM. The coordination of this happens with signals between the components, and not involving the main CPU. The main CPU is then finally signalled when data is ready, but is uninvolved until that point.


 

 

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ps5-a-patent-dive-into-what-might-be-the-tech-behind-sonys-ssd-customisations-technical.118587/

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Pretty sure they do scale with how they are utilised given random and low queue depth read speeds. XPoint does some investing things here. Perhaps you can read and post something from GAF/Era about it. 

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I have old Crucial M4 SSDs in my computer and games load so stupidly fast it doesn’t even bear comparison with consoles. Those gameplay tips in loading screens are unreadable. 

 

The Witcher 3 loads take about 1 second vs the minute plus they take on console. 

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Always had an SSD in my PS4 (+ later Pro) and it’s painful when I use a friends machine with a standard HDD, especially for open world games. Makes a much bigger difference on the Pro than the OG unit.

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I think using NVME SSD's that are also sitting on the newer PCI-e 4 interface is going to give the consoles a huge speed boost.  Forget any other tech sitting on the SSD. 

 

Here's a comparison in speeds between a normal mechanical HDD like you'd see in a console vs the sort of SSD that's been in PC's for years vs the newer SSD's that use a M2 slot. 

This is on current PC tech and SATA 3 or PCI-e 3 in the M2's case.      PCI-e 4 will give M2 slot SSD's a read speed somewhere in the 5000 MB/s range.  50 times faster than the mechanical HDD's you see in consoles currently.   I think we'll see Spiderman demo level loading speeds on both new consoles without any need of special sauce. 

 

https://photographylife.com/nvme-vs-ssd-vs-hdd-performance

image.png.f6f6b0d375d82df10e43bc2d9aec30b4.png

 

It also possibly explains why Sony went early with the "reveal" and claims that it would use drive technology not currently existing.  It suddenly existed in the PC space when it got announced earlier this week. So Sony got the PR it wanted and could also claim to have been telling the truth at the time. 

 

World's first PCIe 4.0 M.2 SSD anounced this week

https://www.eteknix.com/worlds-first-pcie-4-0-m-2-nvme-ssd-announced-by-gigabyte/

 

 

PCI-e 4 (check out PCI-e 5 coming in the next few years!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_4.0

 

 

NVME (M2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NVM_Express

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