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sandman

Does anyone else not give a monkeys about that Sekiro game?

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Yeah, I assumed it was going to be some long-form exploration of difficulty in videogames, and was a bit confused when it seemed to stop at the intro. Love Simon Parkin’s stuff, but it’s a shame it’s so short.  

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How do people feel about smaller developers? Even something as simple as colourblind options adds time and effort that a lot of developers might not have the budget for, let alone a full rebalance of the game which needs its own testing? None of this stuff is free, and I get that FromSoftware could afford to do other things, but if a smaller developer only has the time and budget to balance their game once, do people think they should be obliged to make it easy enough for everyone to enjoy?

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On 19/03/2019 at 06:50, sandman said:

Not a fan of super hard games anymore (if I ever was). 

 

Give me a nice bit of Spider-Man or Far Cry New Dawn any day. Games I can play that are just challenging enough.

Not fussed in the slightest.

 

Didn't enjoy Dark Souls. Didn't enjoy Bloodbourne.

 

They all feel like games that have the difficulty ramped up solely to make you die and redo sections over and over again. I play games to escape the grind of my day to day life. I don't want a game that punishes me for a split second mistake.

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15 hours ago, Broker said:

but if a smaller developer only has the time and budget to balance their game once, do people think they should be obliged to make it easy enough for everyone to enjoy?

 

No, an artist can deliver whatever vision they want, much in the same way a chef is free to deliver their food cooked and seasoned however they want too.

 

The downside of sticking to your guns is if your vision doesn't happen to coincide with a lot of people's tastes is lack of people willing to pay you though, so it's a calculated risk.

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5 hours ago, mushashi said:

 

No, an artist can deliver whatever vision they want, much in the same way a chef is free to deliver their food cooked and seasoned however they want too.

 

The downside of sticking to your guns is if your vision doesn't happen to coincide with a lot of people's tastes is lack of people willing to pay you though, so it's a calculated risk.

 

Not a problem FromSoftware are having though.

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On 08/04/2019 at 13:06, kensei said:

Dark Souls has easy mode. Summon help. Now days you can even summon multiple help. Most bosses are designed for single player and fall quickly to multiple players. Same with Bloodborne.

 

 

This is exactly why I never bought Sekiro. I loved summoning and being summoned in Bloodborne. I really enjoyed the pseudo multiplayer. It wasn’t something that needed to be used all the time but it made the game feel more alive. It was fascinating to see other players builds.

 

I’ve dabbled in Demons Souls, Dark Souls, Dark Souls 2, Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 so it’s been a while since I’ve ignored Froms current offering. When it’s a tenner on PC I’ll give it a go.

 

 

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19 hours ago, mushashi said:

The downside of sticking to your guns is if your vision doesn't happen to coincide with a lot of people's tastes is lack of people willing to pay you though, so it's a calculated risk.

That's the same for all art, you can't please all of the people all of the time. So in the end you need to have the conviction to stay true to your vision, at least as much as is reasonably possible.

 

Below is such a game, I bounced of it almost imediately but I admired the artist's conviction.

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18 hours ago, Broker said:

 

Not a problem FromSoftware are having though.

 

To a certain extent, they'll never enjoy true mainstream success though. There will always be a cap on how many people they can attract who want to get gud, something a variable difficulty option would help address, but that's their choice.

 

Good Arcade games are an interesting thing, easy to get into but with potential to get gud if you really enjoy the experience.

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I do wonder what the completion rate of Sekiro will be compared to their other games with summon/easy mode.

 

Unlike the other Soulsborne’s I’ll never beat this in its current form, and as a result won’t buy another Sekiro game (or similarly hard future From game without a ‘help mode’). And I will continue to warn people off it as a result.

 

I’ll be far from the only one, I imagine. Still, Miyazaki’s artistic vision is what matters. (null)

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Well, on ps4 the platinum has been achieved by 2.4% of players. Bloodborne it is 5.7% but has obviously been out for years, plenty of people in this thread will eventually complete it but haven't yet. 

 

I wouldn't warn people off just because you found it a lot harder than other people seem to, that's a bit dickish when someone else might love the game. 

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5 hours ago, deerokus said:

Well, on ps4 the platinum has been achieved by 2.4% of players. Bloodborne it is 5.7% but has obviously been out for years, plenty of people in this thread will eventually complete it but haven't yet. 

 

I wouldn't warn people off just because you found it a lot harder than other people seem to, that's a bit dickish when someone else might love the game. 

He was doing the same in the hollow Knight thread iirc. 

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16 hours ago, mushashi said:

 

To a certain extent, they'll never enjoy true mainstream success though. There will always be a cap on how many people they can attract who want to get gud, something a variable difficulty option would help address, but that's their choice.

We wouldn't even be having this duscussion if it wasn't for From Software, Dark Souls etc. They've been influential in ways that go beyond sales figures, and that's because they have remained true to their ambition and their art. 

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10 hours ago, jonamok said:

I do wonder what the completion rate of Sekiro will be compared to their other games with summon/easy mode.

 

Unlike the other Soulsborne’s I’ll never beat this in its current form, and as a result won’t buy another Sekiro game (or similarly hard future From game without a ‘help mode’). And I will continue to warn people off it as a result.

 

I’ll be far from the only one, I imagine. Still, Miyazaki’s artistic vision is what matters. (null)

 

7 hours ago, deerokus said:

Well, on ps4 the platinum has been achieved by 2.4% of players. Bloodborne it is 5.7% but has obviously been out for years, plenty of people in this thread will eventually complete it but haven't yet. 

 

I wouldn't warn people off just because you found it a lot harder than other people seem to, that's a bit dickish when someone else might love the game. 

 

 

Yeah, i thought it was a bit of a dickish move to, to be fair. Just because you arent enjoying it, you dont have to warn people off. I'm not a Dark Souls/Bloodborne master by any stretch (completed Bloodborne, but not really played much of any of the Souls games), and i absolutely adore Sekiro. Don't get me wrong, its hard.... like really hard.... but i'm managing to get through each boss little by little, and i feel like the biggest samarai master that ever walked this earth when i do.

 

 

 

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I've always been in two minds when this debate pops up. On the one hand I absolutely think the challenge is a big part of what makes a Souls game what it is, so breezing through on easy mode could result in people having a much worse experience. On the other hand, for people who simply aren't as good at the game for whatever reason, an easier difficulty could still provide them with the right level of challenge.

 

I think on balance I'd like to see these games include an easy mode of some description. It wouldn't affect me in any way, but would allow more people to experience the games the way they want to.

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Yeah I feel the same way. I'm halfway through NG+ on Sekiro and I absolutely love it but it's a bit shit that others can't enjoy it. 

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I've got nothing against an easy mode for people who are struggling. The only problem i have is that i am weak, so if im struggling on a boss, and i know there is an option to change the difficulty, i would probably use that just to get through the boss. The problem with that is that i wouldnt get that massive sense of elation of finally besting a tough boss that has been giving me shit for hours/days/weeks.

 

I guess they could make it so that you choose your difficulty at the start, and then not be able to change it all the way through the game.

 

it is a tough one to be fair. Im glad there is no easy mode personally, because i have to either 'put up, or shut up' and in a weird way, i actually like the punishing nature.

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6 hours ago, Stanley said:

We wouldn't even be having this duscussion if it wasn't for From Software, Dark Souls etc. They've been influential in ways that go beyond sales figures, and that's because they have remained true to their ambition and their art. 

 

That's really no different to artists in other creative fields who never achieved mainstream success then, they were influential on other creatives but outside of a certain circle, they never gained the recognition they might have otherwise deserved for their work.

 

 

1 hour ago, cohen205 said:

I've got nothing against an easy mode for people who are struggling. The only problem i have is that i am weak

 

This is probably a big reason for why some people are so vehemently against options, they themselves are too weak-willed to stick to the path and will absolutely take the easy route if it is available :P  It's either that, or they only want people who are willing to endure as much as them be able to see the game to completion. Depends on your views on art versus a consumer product designed to make money.

 

I don't think adaptive difficulty is a good thing for these sorts of games as that would change the nature of the sense of accomplishment of hard to master games.

 

Maybe we just need to rename difficulty tiers as some people don't want the machismo sapping stigma of admitting to having played on the baby mode :P

 

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So, some context for the judgemental of my “dickish” move.

 

My mate has very limited gaming time, is quite ‘casual’, but had heard about it and asked me what it was like.

 

I told him it was frustratingly difficult, with lots and lots of repetition of maddening bosses, and a high skill threshold that I felt, after a couple of weeks of trying, was beyond me (and still do).

 

He said, “Yeah, that’s definitely not for me.” And went back to playing Spider-Man. Good for him. I believe I saved him wasting his dosh.

 

And a large part of me wishes I’d never bought it either.

 

 

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5 hours ago, mushashi said:

 

That's really no different to artists in other creative fields who never achieved mainstream success then, they were influential on other creatives but outside of a certain circle, they never gained the recognition they might have otherwise deserved for their work.

So now you're arguing that From haven't achieved mainstream success, or haven't received recognition for their work? 

 

What you appear to be saying is that all art is meaningless unless it strives to appeal to a wider or more mainstream audience. I think that's the problem right now in AAA games where success is only graded by how much money a game returns, and how they can be monetised further to carry on milking the audience. IMO it leads to stagnation.

 

And I can't think of any games influenced by Souls that have achieved more mainstream success than it.

 

Demon Souls, three Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro - all in the last decade - they're obviously doing something right or they wouldn't be able to carry on making them.

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5 hours ago, jonamok said:

So, some context for the judgemental of my “dickish” move.

 

My mate has very limited gaming time, is quite ‘casual’, but had heard about it and asked me what it was like.

 

I told him it was frustratingly difficult, with lots and lots of repetition of maddening bosses, and a high skill threshold that I felt, after a couple of weeks of trying, was beyond me (and still do).

 

He said, “Yeah, that’s definitely not for me.” And went back to playing Spider-Man. Good for him. I believe I saved him wasting his dosh.

 

And a large part of me wishes I’d never bought it either.

 

 

 

Why couldn’t you let him make his own mind up? He may have loved it? If you were thinking of selling it anyway, let him lend it for a day and see how he gets on. You and him have nothing to lose by doing this.

 

I introduced my ‘casual’ gaming friend to bloodborne last year, but only after months and months of persuasion. He loved it so much that he started a NG+ immediately after completing it, and he still dips back into it now and then. I only went through the game once. 

 

My point is just because you found the game difficult and frustrating doesn’t mean that every one will. 

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6 hours ago, cohen205 said:

 

Why couldn’t you let him make his own mind up? He may have loved it? If you were thinking of selling it anyway, let him lend it for a day and see how he gets on. You and him have nothing to lose by doing this.

 

I introduced my ‘casual’ gaming friend to bloodborne last year, but only after months and months of persuasion. He loved it so much that he started a NG+ immediately after completing it, and he still dips back into it now and then. I only went through the game once. 

 

My point is just because you found the game difficult and frustrating doesn’t mean that every one will. 

 

Okay, one more time. HE asked MY opinion. I told him my true feelings (spoiler: they differ from yours). HE decided it wasn’t for him.

 

He is on PS4, I am on Xbox. Of course I’d lend it to him if I could FFS.

 

If he still wants to buy it for himself good luck to him.

 

And I’m delighted for your friend. Bloodborne is a truly amazing game. I’ve convinced other people to play it. I’m glad you persuaded your friend to play it. And if he had got stuck he could have summoned his way through the roadblocks. Like I did.

 

All of which is neither here nor there.

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I think it’s their worst designed game.it’s just totally unbalanced in its structure.  

They should have saved the time building the easy bits you beat after three goes and then run through and just built a tower with bosses behind the doors as you go up. 

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1 hour ago, jonamok said:

 

Okay, one more time. HE asked MY opinion. I told him my true feelings (spoiler: they differ from yours). HE decided it wasn’t for him.

 

He is on PS4, I am on Xbox. Of course I’d lend it to him if I could FFS.

 

If he still wants to buy it for himself good luck to him.

 

And I’m delighted for your friend. Bloodborne is a truly amazing game. I’ve convinced other people to play it. I’m glad you persuaded your friend to play it. And if he had got stuck he could have summoned his way through the roadblocks. Like I did.

 

All of which is neither here nor there.

 

Why are you so angry? 

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It's been awesome to see Ian Hamilton get some speaking time in various places about this

 

https://junkee.com/sekiro-game-difficulty/200666

 

He's ridiculously reasonable on the topic (and still gets a load of shit online from git gudders) and he absolutely nails the problem with/resistance to widening access to From games:

 

Quote

“Where Sekiro varies a bit is in having a conflicting design goal of players having all tackled similar barriers so they can have easily relatable discussions with each other. It’s about community. That’s the specific reason why they don’t have as many options as those other examples.”

 

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