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Almost Everything Is Too Long (this isn't a new show)

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Think there has always been stuff made that’s too long. Pure self indulgence. See Ben Hur, Gone With The Wind, Deer Hunter, Godfather, loads of old classics. All could’ve halved their run times and still been as good. 

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1 hour ago, the_debaser said:

Think there has always been stuff made that’s too long. Pure self indulgence. See Ben Hur, Gone With The Wind, Deer Hunter, Godfather, loads of old classics. All could’ve halved their run times and still been as good. 

 

I was thinking more Judd Apatow comedies, Wolf of Wall Street, Age of Ultron...

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Its the main reason why I don't get into most TV like people here do. A successful show gets padded out and a failure gets cut too short. Meaning precious few feel perfectly paced and plotted.

Last year I gave up on loads of shows where I really liked season 1. Ozark, Handmaids Tail etc. Because I can't be bothered with the dance around the houses to get to the point. I guess growing up on movies, while I enjoy the adventure, I need it to have a point. And I love an ending. A decent ending is the pinnacle of storytelling. In TV, the ratio of adventure/ending is way off. 

Things are starting to change. Runtimes are getting shorter (Altlanta, The end of the fucking world) and shows like Feud and American horror Story have worked out that self contained series' help control the drop off rate. I loved the Versace show for example. 

But films still give me all I need, and theres still more than 300 films on my 'to watch' list, so fuck it, for now TV can take a back seat. 

Some films are too long sure, but unlike TV, films get to be as long as they need to be, rather than trying to fit the story into the slot and give a cliffhanger every 11 mins. 

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4 minutes ago, kerraig UK said:

Its the main reason why I don't get into most TV like people here do. A successful show gets padded out and a failure gets cut too short. Meaning precious few feel perfectly paced and plotted out.

Last year I gave up on loads of shows where I really liked season 1. Ozark, Handmaids Tail etc. Because I can't be bothered with the dance around the houses to get to the point. I guess growing up on movies, while I enjoy the adventure, I need it to have a point. And I love an ending. A decent ending is the pinnacle of storytelling. In TV, the ratio of adventure/ending is way off. 

Things are starting to change. Runtimes are getting shorter (Altlanta, The end of the fucking world) and shows like Feud and American horror Story have worked out that self contained series' help control the drop off rate. I loved the Versace show for example. 

But films still give me all I need, and theres still more than 300 films on my 'to watch' list, so fuck it, for now TV can take a back seat. 

Some films are too long sure, but unlike TV, films get to be as long as they need to be, rather than trying to fit the story into the slot and give a cliffhanger every 11 mins. 

But there are a handful of shows worth the time - Goliath, Taboo, Killing Eve. It’s the majority that are just filler.

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Just now, linkster said:

But there are a handful of shows worth the time - Goliath, Taboo, Killing Eve. It’s the majority that are just filler.


Killing Eve was terrible. Taboo was cracking, but its part of that good TV i'm talking about. Its essentially a 6 hour movie, with each act taking 2 hours. When season 2 drops I won't bother watching it in the same way I don't bother with 98% of movie sequels. 

Haven't seen Goliath. 

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1 hour ago, kerraig UK said:



Things are starting to change. Runtimes are getting shorter (Altlanta, The end of the fucking world) 

 

Did you like those 2? I thought Atlanta lost it’s way a bit in season 2 but I was happy a show existed that let Donald Glover make whatever was in his head.

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1 hour ago, Silent Runner said:

 

Did you like those 2? I thought Atlanta lost it’s way a bit in season 2 but I was happy a show existed that let Donald Glover make whatever was in his head.

 

I loved both of them. I only saw Atlanta season 1, cos as I said before, I've got my fill of that world and those characters. No need to carry on 

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5 minutes ago, kerraig UK said:

 

I loved both of them. I only saw Atlanta season 1, cos as I said before, I've got my fill of that world and those characters. No need to carry on 

 

Fwiw, season 2 is fucking strange. The mid-season has a run of single character episodes that are isolated stories going off on weird tangents.

It doesn't just plod along continuing the same story. It's oddball.

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31 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

 

Fwiw, season 2 is fucking strange. The mid-season has a run of single character episodes that are isolated stories going off on weird tangents.

It doesn't just plod along continuing the same story. It's oddball.

 

I just don't bother with sequels and I'm not much of a TV watcher in general. I gave up half way through You, Maniac, Stranger Things, The Sinner, The Bodyguard...

 

They all have pacing and padding problems. I'd rather watch 4 films all crafted and structured from beginning to end. And have a satisfying story resolution every evening rather than once every 4 months. 

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12 hours ago, ZOK said:

A lot of the reason LA Takedown is wildly superior to Heat is that it’s half the length - and it doesn’t have Al Pacino stinking it right up too, of course.

 

But people generally applaud the bum-numbing latter, because it has a couple of decent scenes in it and a tasty shootout.

 

Heat is worth it for this scene:

 

 

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15 hours ago, kerraig UK said:

 

I just don't bother with sequels and I'm not much of a TV watcher in general. I gave up half way through You, Maniac, Stranger Things, The Sinner, The Bodyguard...

 

They all have pacing and padding problems. I'd rather watch 4 films all crafted and structured from beginning to end. And have a satisfying story resolution every evening rather than once every 4 months. 

Stranger Things is toss, It! did a much better job of basically the same thing. 

 

That The Bodyguard won a golden globe for best actor kind of makes me think actually they just have got confused and thought he really did all that stuff 

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I don't believe there's a length that a movie 'should be'. For me it just boils down to how I feel about the pacing while watching. As noted above, 180 minutes of The Wolf of Wall Street go by in a flash, but I can point to countless 80-minute slasher films that I've become impatient with to the point of distraction. I don't care how long something is if I'm engaged throughout. 

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On 11/01/2019 at 09:34, Stigweard said:

The straw that broke the camels back was when

 

That Straw was when George died :quote:

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Just compare The Simpsons to Matt Groening's Enchantment on Netflix. Obviously it doesn't help that Enchantment turned out to be quite rubbish, but each episode was lasting 30-40 minutes with absolutely no justification whatsoever. By contrast, classic era Simpsons is an absolute marvel of economy. 22 minutes in which to tell, pretty much from scratch, a fully developed three act story and cram it full of gag after gag on top of that? Just another reason why it's one of the best written shows ever. 

 

On 12/01/2019 at 17:51, kerraig UK said:

I'd rather watch 4 films all crafted and structured from beginning to end. And have a satisfying story resolution every evening rather than once every 4 months. 

 

This is a wee bit dismissive of TV I think. The best TV (I'm talking stuff like Mad Men and The Sopranos) are able to give you a satisfying story arc within each episode in addition to the season long story arc. I can feel just as 'full' and satisfied after a single episode of those shows as I do after watching a good movie. Plus, of course, you get the benefits of being able to flesh out an entire world and the characters within them, down to relatively minor side characters, to a level of depth you could only dream of in most movies.

 

The art of making each episode of a TV series satisfying in its own right does seem to be getting lost a little though, particularly on Netflix. Because they want to you to carry on binging, they don't particularly want you to feel 'full' after one episode, they want a cliffhanger to keep you watching the next one. Something like Stranger Things (especially season 2) is basically a ten hour long movie told in rather arbritrary hour long chunks rather than a show with ten episodes which each stand on their own merits. Shout out to Haunting of Hill House for being one of the few Netflix shows I've seen to even come close to pulling this off.

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3 hours ago, Majora said:

Just compare The Simpsons to Matt Groening's Enchantment on Netflix. Obviously it doesn't help that Enchantment turned out to be quite rubbish, but each episode was lasting 30-40 minutes with absolutely no justification whatsoever. By contrast, classic era Simpsons is an absolute marvel of economy. 22 minutes in which to tell, pretty much from scratch, a fully developed three act story and cram it full of gag after gag on top of that? Just another reason why it's one of the best written shows ever. 

 

 

This is a wee bit dismissive of TV I think. The best TV (I'm talking stuff like Mad Men and The Sopranos) are able to give you a satisfying story arc within each episode in addition to the season long story arc. I can feel just as 'full' and satisfied after a single episode of those shows as I do after watching a good movie. Plus, of course, you get the benefits of being able to flesh out an entire world and the characters within them, down to relatively minor side characters, to a level of depth you could only dream of in most movies.

 

The art of making each episode of a TV series satisfying in its own right does seem to be getting lost a little though, particularly on Netflix. Because they want to you to carry on binging, they don't particularly want you to feel 'full' after one episode, they want a cliffhanger to keep you watching the next one. Something like Stranger Things (especially season 2) is basically a ten hour long movie told in rather arbritrary hour long chunks rather than a show with ten episodes which each stand on their own merits. Shout out to Haunting of Hill House for being one of the few Netflix shows I've seen to even come close to pulling this off.

 

There are loads of positives of TV. and theres loads of brilliant TV. It's just not my preferred format.

 

I absolutely adored Deadwood. I loved that world so much. So for it to not really have an ending or be able to tie up the things it needed to just seemed so cruel. Like a loss to the arts or something. A loss to humanity. That it couldn't exist as this perfect bookended thing.

 

Tonight I watched a double bill of Hedwig and Frank. Two stories about mentally ill musicians that are absolutely perfect little capsule universes. I laughed and cried even 

 

I really like the way TV allows you to live somewhere. The Expanse on Netflix feels like a real world. So does Albert Square. But when I'm being told a story, I personally want it to resolve. 

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7 hours ago, kerraig UK said:

 

There are loads of positives of TV. and theres loads of brilliant TV. It's just not my preferred format.

 

I absolutely adored Deadwood. I loved that world so much. So for it to not really have an ending or be able to tie up the things it needed to just seemed so cruel. Like a loss to the arts or something. A loss to humanity. That it couldn't exist as this perfect bookended thing.

 

Tonight I watched a double bill of Hedwig and Frank. Two stories about mentally ill musicians that are absolutely perfect little capsule universes. I laughed and cried even 

 

I really like the way TV allows you to live somewhere. The Expanse on Netflix feels like a real world. So does Albert Square. But when I'm being told a story, I personally want it to resolve. 

 

But by your own admission you gave up TV stuff before the resolve. TV shows have an story arc over a whole season, if you just give up on them you're not letting it get resolved. Unless each episode is a stand alone thing (like The Simpsons mentioned before), you're not allowing the show the resovle you're after. Some of those shows you mentioned are very good imo and I didn't see any pacing issues with them. Stranger Things and The Sinner only had 8 episodes, nothing was really dragged out. If you feel unsatified after the conclussion then rightly so, bin any future series off, I've done that. But also loving a show and then saying at the end of the first season you've have enough of that world seem totally bizzarre to me, epsecially when some shows that have strong starts get even better as the show goes on e.g. The Sopranos, The Shield, The Wire, Better Call Saul etc. Imagine just giving up on the Sopranos after one season.

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1 minute ago, Stigweard said:

 

But by your own admission you gave up TV stuff before the resolve. TV shows have an story arc over a whole season, if you just give up on them you're not letting it get resolved. Unless each episode is a stand alone thing (like The Simpsons mentioned before), you're not allowing the show the resovle you're after. Some of those shows you mentioned are very good imo and I didn't see any pacing issues with them. Stranger Things and The Sinner only had 8 episodes, nothing was really dragged out. If you feel unsatified after the conclussion then rightly so, bin any future series off, I've done that. But also loving a show and then saying at the end of the first season you've have enough of that world seem totally bizzarre to me, epsecially when some shows that have strong starts get even better as the show goes on e.g. The Sopranos, The Shield, The Wire, Better Call Saul etc. Imagine just giving up on the Sopranos after one season.

 

Firstly, you can't mention the Sopranos in these discussions anymore. It's like Godwins law, Sopranos is a different beast to 99% of telly. It's like comparing a high street kebab to the Cinnamon Club and saying you don't like curry. 

Secondly, I never give up after one episode unless something is really shit. I watched all of Ozark Season 1 and gave up around 6 eps into season 2. Series 1 did not resolve. And after 16 hours i'd very much had my fill of the same danger loop.

Likewise Handmaids Tale, gave up in season 2 because it's going to keep creating new jeopardy for as long as viewing figures are high then it's going to tie everything up as quickly and cheaply as possible when they drop. It's not respecting the viewer.

I gave up on Stranger things after 4 eps just cos I thought it was crap. 

When TV is absolutely stellar (Like the recent A Very British Scandal or Breaking Bad)) I enjoy it immensely. But I only have so much time and while there are still hundreds of masterpiece movies that can get me in and out in 2 hours and give me a full 3 course meal, I don't see any need to keep going to the buffet cart.

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Fair enough. I do love a good buffet though.

 

But what if you know from the get go that everything is leading to something? For example GOT and Better Call Saul are all leading us to a place we know where it's going* but doesn't resolve it each season, we're just seeing a massivly long story inbetween and how it all played out to get there. I guess it's probably different if the show is good enough to keep you interested to see it out though.

 

 

 

*I realise we don't know exactly how GOT ends, but we do know it's leading to a victor on the Iron Throne.

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On 12/01/2019 at 14:48, kerraig UK said:

Haven't seen Goliath. 

 

On 12/01/2019 at 14:58, linkster said:

Billy Bob’s finest work IMO

 

Goliath is great, but Season 2 does have some pacing issues/extraneous episodes. Not many, but I distinctly remember my wife and I forcing ourselves through the lull.

 

Mind you, even the Sopranos has the lull.

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1 minute ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

 

Goliath is great, but Season 2 does have some pacing issues/extraneous episodes. Not many, but I distinctly remember my wife and I forcing ourselves through the lull.

 

Mind you, even the Sopranos has the lull.

OK in fairness I couldn't even make it through a couple of episodes of S2, much like Murder One actually. Such a shame but doesn't detract from how outstanding they both were for a time.

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