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Bungie and Activision part ways, Bungie keep Destiny IP

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Yup, entirely agree. But that is the 'great stuff' of Destiny. It's a shame many people seem to ignore it in favour of characterising the whole game as a Skinner Box (bleuch) and pretending it hasn't got any high quality, challenging gameplay or engrossing combat/puzzle scenarios. It has some of the most memorable encounters and discoveries, has provided some of the greatest feelings of tension, of achievement, in any game I've ever played. It'll be a real shame if that were to die out because not enough people can, or want to, play it. Ironically, without having that content to aim for, it might just become the aimless endless looter grinder that many wrongly accuse of it being. 

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Wasn't there also the issue with D1 (And quite obviously D2 given how agile they aren't) that their content creation pipeline is mega, mega slow? I remember stuff like having to leave a map rendering overnight just to test one tiny change. If they haven't managed to get that sorted there's no hope for them. You need to be super agile with a GaaS. Epic with Fortnite and DE with Warframe seem to have gotten this nailed. Bungie not so much

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1 minute ago, Gorf King said:

Yup, entirely agree. But that is the 'great stuff' of Destiny. It's a shame many people seem to ignore it in favour of characterising the whole game as a Skinner Box (bleuch) and pretending it hasn't got any high quality, challenging gameplay or engrossing combat/puzzle scenarios. It has some of the most memorable encounters and discoveries, has provided some of the greatest feelings of tension, of achievement, in any game I've ever played. It'll be a real shame if that were to die out because not enough people can, or want to, play it. Ironically, without having that content to aim for, it might just become the aimless endless looter grinder that many wrongly accuse of it being. 

 

Markets change. It reminds me of most of the MMO WoW clones that were coming out for ages all being heavily into PvP when all signs pointed to the market for that in MMOs falling off a cliff. Look at the puzzle thing Bungie just caved on in Destiny 2. That was never anything the general player base was ever going to contribute to solving. They expected a very hardcore bunch of hardcore streamers to solve it in a few hours. Why even bother wasting the money making it?

 

It's a shame though I agree. I'm not one for that sort of super hardcore content myself (I burned out on the drama during Wrath of the Lich King) but done well I can see the appeal. If the player number aren't there for that sort of content I'm not sure what you can do to get it back to be honest.

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They miscalculated how fast the community would solve those puzzles. And, yes, the puzzles were really badly designed, which it has to be said is a first for Bungie. They've done similarly obscure surprise quests before, and they've been greeted with delight (and success). This one, they swung and missed.

 

Both Fortnite (especially that one) and Warframe are entirely different games. For Fortnite, you develop a new map or cosmetic. That's not the same as developing raids and all the other content or a regular schedule, to the quality Bungie need to. When it comes to Warframe, many WF fans regarded almost the whole of 2018 as a content drought. In fact, what DE did last year was to actually remove all their three 'raids' from the game because they were a buggy broken mess which DE said they couldn't keep trying to fix. So they simply removed the endgame and put more grinding activities in instead - the whole of the latest expansion is just another new area to do endless grind in, to keep player time engaged in while they come up with new cosmetic packs and prime packs to sell them. I'd absolutely hate Destiny to become like that. 

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Comparing Fortnite (a single map which is constantly iterated on) and Warframe (a heavily tile based with a couple of, admittedly large, but bland open world areas) to Destiny world/level design is quite dumb.

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I'm not comparing the games. I'm saying the development process needs to be fast and agile. Are Bungie fast and agile?

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But you cited Warframe. DE couldn't even develop or sustain the type of content that's 'designed encounters', like a raid, that Bungie produces. They ended up just taking their 'raids' out of the game altogether after a couple of broken years because they couldn't find the time to fix them. They said that themselves - they took up too much of their time. How is that fast and agile? How has their process led to them developing high quality content quickly and managing and fixing it rapidly? I'd argue it hasn't.

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Did RJ actually delete that whole embarrassing post about his "trap"? I assume it didn't quite work out.

 

The ongoing trend of overly-ignorant Destiny complaints from those who don't play it continues, it seems.

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2 minutes ago, Gorf King said:

But you cited Warframe. DE couldn't even develop or sustain the type of content that's 'designed encounters', like a raid, that Bungie produces. They ended up just taking their 'raids' out of the game altogether after a couple of broken years because they couldn't find the time to fix them. They said that themselves - they took up too much of their time. How is that fast and agile? How has their process led to them developing high quality content quickly and managing and fixing it rapidly? I'd argue it hasn't.

 

Can Bungie with its 750 strong studio put out enough content fast enough and with enough quality to satisfy the current player base and do enough to attract and retain a new playerbase. I'd argue they can't. They certainly couldn't with Activision and another couple of studios supporting them.

 

 

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I already said I doubt they can, because Bungie try to do too many things with Destiny. But that has nothing to do with being 'agile'. If DE are 'agile' it hasn't helped them produce even a fraction of the high quality endgame content that Bungie have. And Fortnite doesn't even have that layer of content, so I have no idea why you brought them both into it.

 

I simply don't think you can make the best pure FPS, the best PvP game, the best online co-op looter shooter, the best MMO-like raid endgame, all in one game. And continue to satisfy an incessant demand for new content. That's regardless of whether you are 'agile' or not. And certainly nothing to do with what the Fornite and Warframe developers do, or do not do, with their games. It's to do with the player base being absolutely insatiable, and Bungie being super ambitious in trying to do all this in the first place. Something will have to give.

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2 minutes ago, Bojangle said:

 

 

Of course not. ;)

 

:) This is where the video game fans get super defensive that people like different stuff. 

 

Look. I really enjoyed the story missions in the original Destiny 2. It was very satisfying. I just don't find their version of the progression grind something appealing and not being a fan of ultra hard content and raids there's nothing really in the current iteration of the game for me. That other people like that stuff is fine. That I don't like it is fine. None of it  has any baring on how Bungie can go about making a GaaS that's worth them continuing to invest in. Is there a big enough market for this sort of content that will support a 750 strong dev team and hungry investors?

 

Guys. It's going to be a far more interesting and productive discussion if you stop being so sensitive when people talk about stuff like this. I don't hate the game. I just like ribbing it from time to time :)

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27 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Did RJ actually delete that whole embarrassing post about his "trap"? I assume it didn't quite work out.

 

The ongoing trend of overly-ignorant Destiny complaints from those who don't play it continues, it seems.

 

I did find bits and pieces scattered in different thread, but not really something I could link to as a zinger. Click back to the start of the D2 thread and there's lots of people who talked about it being more open (they expected a lot of things that probably disappointed them, like getting answers about the Darkness and the Traveller), and there's an exchange in the Xbox One thread that does involve people contesting previewed content is re-used from base D1 or TTK and that they'll rework it to be more open. I count my pre-release prediction though:

 

Quote

Nothing they showed of the levels looked particularly more open than Destiny 1.

 

The released game still felt like it was that corridor/arena/corridor structure designed to fit into the last-gen consoles 512MB of RAM, even though it released four years into the current generation. And also I do have the game you know, they literally gave it away free on PC.

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7 minutes ago, Flub said:

 

:) This is where the video game fans get super defensive that people like different stuff. 


Not at all defensive, I just find it super hard to read your comments in here in good faith when you're posting cringey as fuck gamer stuff like the above screenshot.

I casually play both Warframe and Destiny 2 and enjoy them both for different reasons. There's room for both in the market and there's no need to shit on one because you're currently addicted to the other.

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4 minutes ago, K said:

Wait, what's all this about a trap?

 

RJ said 'people here swore up and down that D2 zones would be massive, open, and have settlements within them', to which I replied 'citation needed'. Because they did nothing of the sort. It's just RJ imagining this vast, rabid, uncritical mass of Destiny fanboys that he's duty-bound to wade into with his fists of righteous historical justice, but they don't actually exist so he's punching air and that tends to make you unbalanced and prone to falling flat on your face.

 

RJ then quoted me and said something almost exactly like 'It was you, actually. TRAP SPRUNG! I’ll go and dig it out.' I almost quoted him with a view to future delight, knowing full well this was bollocks, but I usually can't be bothered with the sort of idiotic, childish, fact and insight-free shite that passes for discussion on the forum these days. Not always, mind, but usually. So I didn't. And obviously after much digging he found out that his fiendishly constructed and carefully sprung 'trap' had closed on air, so he just deleted his pre-coup de grace boast about his forthcoming ZINGER instead of just owning up that he'd been talking shite about people again. 

 

ZINGER.

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As somebody who played Destiny casually but still did a few Raids and shit, all I can say is that I hope the fucking psychologists they hired on staff were attributed to the Activision side of things.

 

'See, if you make this colour just a little bit more blue, they're 99% more likely to buy shit lootboxes!'

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11 minutes ago, Bojangle said:

Not at all defensive, I just find it super hard to read your comments in here in good faith when you're posting cringey as fuck gamer stuff like the above screenshot.

I casually play both Warframe and Destiny 2 and enjoy them both for different reasons. There's room for both in the market and there's no need to shit on one because you're currently addicted to the other.

 

I've played both pretty extensively. All the 'fuck game x lolol' stuff is immensely tiresome, and super childish, as well as usually being deeply ignorant. Actually puts you off playing (and certainly puts you off the 'community' involved). Like, you can't have a well-informed critical discussion for all the transparently console war-y stuff that gets in the way, almost every time.

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6 minutes ago, Bojangle said:


Not at all defensive, I just find it super hard to read your comments in here in good faith when you're posting cringey as fuck gamer stuff like the above screenshot.

 

 

Believe me. I am totally trying to discuss this in good faith. I love the idea of Destiny. A sci-fi shooter is like cat nip to me. I'm supremely bummed that the grind in Destiny isn't for me. I'd fucking love to be as into it as you guys are.

 

What I am very interested in is development processes for what has come to be known as games as a service. I'm a very longtime player of MMOs and there's a lot of similarities. Endgame, raids, insatiable player bases. There's huge amounts of work involved in building and running one of these. I'm fascinated by the different approaches. UO early on with its emphasis on making your own fun and PvP. The huge switch to the WoW style that still dominates. Team shooters evolving, the rise of Battle Royale.

 

GaaS is the direction the industry is heading in now (For now anyway) since it seems to be the best way for them to make even more money so seeing how different companies go about it and discussing it is really interesting to me. 

 

I've really tried not to come across in this thread as a prick. I really want to see what Bungie do next.

 

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But if posting one joke picture in a thread means you're just going to jump down my throat then fair enough. I'll leave you to it.

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Man, what a clusterfuck this has been. All that wasted potential, and so much hard work gone into the production of all of it. God damn.

 

I dont think Bungie are going to turn Destiny around, though, unfortunately. Maybe they can use everything theyve done so far to start an entirely new IP in the same genre but that should probably be with a new name. And maybe try to deliver on their ideas for what they imagined Destiny to become in the first place.

 

And dont they have 500+ employees? Whether they stay independent or have other plans, that is a large number of people to manage. Theyre probably too big for Microsoft to be interested in buying them out, and a merger with another studio would probably mean that a lot of people would have to go.

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1 hour ago, Gorf King said:

I certainly don't think any company has the time and resources to make a full, Halo-style cinematic campaign, and a great online co-op game, and a top level grindy looter, and a great PvP game, and an RPG, and top quality raids and hidden quests and secrets, and keep the insatiable demand for new content satisfied every few months. No one game can do this, and I think something has to go from Destiny for Bungie to be able to do the rest of the game justice. My fear is that it might be the best quality stuff - the raids etc - that have to go, for commercial reasons. Personally, I'd rather see them kill off, say, PvP altogether. You can get that fix lots of other places. But then you'd be making content for such a relatively small group of players.

 

Maybe Bungie will commit commercial suicide trying to do just that. But they surely can't keep trying to do everything, the way they have been.

This nails it for me. The saying 'Jack of all trades, master of none' comes to mind, but that'd be a bit unfair, as it really does excel in a lot of areas. They're just trying to do far too much with it.

 

The problem is, for me at least, that alongside that top quality content there's also a lot of shit. Keeping the raids, strikes, challenges, secrets, etc and ditching all the grinding, cosmetics and looting would be my ideal game, but I can imagine other people want different things from it, which leaves them struggling to make anyone happy. My worry is, like you say, that all the good stuff is very time consuming for them to make and all the other stuff is relatively quick to produce, so they'll stick to that.

 

It'll be interesting to see where they head in the future.

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It'll be interesting to see if they can move away from having to release a large chunk of content yearly on top of the quarterly expansions and instead do smaller, but much more focused content updates.

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750 employees I believe. They’re a massive studio.

 

For comparison:

 

Epic: 700 (but remember that includes their engine business and associated support)

Naughty Dog: 225

Treyarch: 250

Bethesda: 400

 

Although apparently 900 people work at CD Projeckt Red!

 

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16 hours ago, Gizamaluke said:

My gut is that this is all because Bungie want to do more Destiny and Activision don't. I guess time will tell.

 

Activision's most recent comment about Destiny was to express disappointment about its commercial success so they've allowed Bungie out of their original 10 year deal early it would seem. They barely delivered half of what was originally agreed to in terms of releases.

 

 

It reminds me of the Square-Enix and IO Interactive situation, S-E thought it better to invest their money elsewhere and allowed IO to do a MBO and even keep the Hitman brand.

 

I don't doubt Activision would have held Bungie to their 10 year deal if Destiny was blowing the doors off commercially.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Nate Dogg III said:

I've also got some pals at Activision I hope will be okay, but that roster looks slim as fuck right now. COD's on the wane but it's pretty much all that's left (yes there's Blizzard but it's run as a separate entity, at least for now). Eric Hirshberg's hit-factory approach was very short-termist, and I do wonder where they go from here.

 

Since they ran Skylanders/plastic instruments/Tony Hawk, etc into the ground, the only new source of moneyprinting Activision have discovered is nostalgia (somebody on here will be overjoyed to here that one ;) ) so that should be mineable for a short while at least until the general public tire of it and want a new bandwagon fad to jump on.

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4 hours ago, Broker said:

 

I can't see myself ever wanting to invest time in a Destiny game again, mainly because after 600 hours across 2 games I actually ended up feeling really negative towards the franchise, which is really rare for me. Usually I either dislike things early or love them, it's incredibly rare for me to get invested in a game to that degree but not remember it very fondly. Although a lot of that problem is me always thinking the game was nearly great but it never quite reaching it's potential, with every new thing promising to achieve that quality but it never quite managing it, so maybe a numbered sequel would have that effect.

 

Whoa, Broker. Replace the word Destiny with heroin and it sounds like you've had a debilitating habit over the last few years. ;-)

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2 hours ago, Gorf King said:

 

RJ said 'people here swore up and down that D2 zones would be massive, open, and have settlements within them', to which I replied 'citation needed'. Because they did nothing of the sort. It's just RJ imagining this vast, rabid, uncritical mass of Destiny fanboys that he's duty-bound to wade into with his fists of righteous historical justice, but they don't actually exist so he's punching air and that tends to make you unbalanced and prone to falling flat on your face.

 

RJ then quoted me and said something almost exactly like 'It was you, actually. TRAP SPRUNG! I’ll go and dig it out.' I almost quoted him with a view to future delight, knowing full well this was bollocks, but I usually can't be bothered with the sort of idiotic, childish, fact and insight-free shite that passes for discussion on the forum these days. Not always, mind, but usually. So I didn't. And obviously after much digging he found out that his fiendishly constructed and carefully sprung 'trap' had closed on air, so he just deleted his pre-coup de grace boast about his forthcoming ZINGER instead of just owning up that he'd been talking shite about people again. 

 

ZINGER.

 

Sounds like a new puzzle in game, what’s the reward - Galamathorn?

 

 

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