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Star Trek: Picard - 'Best Trek Ever' says everyone

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17 minutes ago, davidcotton said:

One thing I don't get is why Picard was so freaked out by being on the borg cube (yes I know assimilation=bad)?  Thought the events of First Contact had more or less brought closure for him?

 

PTSD? Might have brought closure in one sense but still able to be brought back to those situations if in similar situations again.

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Yep Mike even showed his treatise for Star Trek: Galaxy, which was what he'd hoped for from Picard. It sounded ten times better than what we got, and some of the ideas him and Rich threw out during the discussion were pretty good too.

 

I saw that "writer throws Stewart under a bus" thing and just rolled my eyes. I now realise he's only here (as is Jeri Ryan) for the money, and not for the fans.

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I think I've posted this on here before (Ira Steven Behr on the episode 'Captain's Holiday', which ended up a lot different than what he originally pitched).

 

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1 hour ago, Harsin said:

I think I've posted this on here before (Ira Steven Behr on the episode 'Captain's Holiday', which ended up a lot different than what he originally pitched.

 

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I’ve got a lot of love for TNG Stewart, but I don’t think he should be let near the creative side of things. I suspect he’s a lot like himself in Extras but with action scenes instead of ladies’ clothes falling off. I think Nemesis’ silly buggy scene was basically there because he wanted to mess about in a car. 

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The end of this episode made no sense whatsoever.

 

 

Picard and Soji are heading off to a planet in the middle of nowhere to rendezvous with their ship, presumably because they can't just beam back on onboard for reasons. But wait, Space Legolas can beam to their location, so I guess that's working after all. Maybe they'll all beam back together? No, Legolas is going to stand at the end of a long corridor as he brings a sword to a disruptor fight, while Picard carries on regardless.

 

It was like the end of Discovery Season 2 in miniature.

 

Otherwise it was alright, I guess.

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Stewart is a great actor and fantastic as Picard but he should never be allowed any story control re Trek. 

 

This is not a reaction to STP, if you've read any TNG books his ideas about the character are usually not the best. 

 

That's not to say he doesn't deserve credit for parts of the Character but certainly the best aspects of the character were occasionally in spite of Stewart's ideas. 

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4 hours ago, Mr Ben said:

Yep Mike even showed his treatise for Star Trek: Galaxy, which was what he'd hoped for from Picard. It sounded ten times better than what we got, and some of the ideas him and Rich threw out during the discussion were pretty good too.

 

I saw that "writer throws Stewart under a bus" thing and just rolled my eyes. I now realise he's only here (as is Jeri Ryan) for the money, and not for the fans.


Do you have a link to this stuff?

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4 hours ago, Garibaldi said:

Also saw an online Q&A with one of the writers, where he indirectly laid a lot of the blame for the isolationist Federation, Picard giving up etc at the feet of Patrick Stewart. Said he was fixated on drawing on current issues like Brexit and Trump, and that he wanted it to feel significantly different from TNG or he wasn’t coming back. All I can say to that is don’t have him back then.

 

See I actually think that's pretty reasonable. Science fiction has always acted as an allegory of the real world, and Star Trek has always been a product of its time. If TNG's spirit of optimism came from the end of the Cold War and America's economic ascendancy, Picard should reflect that it's written and produced in a very different time.

 

Also, this is far from the only Star Trek series being produced at the moment and each is likely to have its own take. We've already had Discovery (brain-dead pew pew for newcomers to the franchise) and Picard (nostalgia for TNG fans), who knows what Lower Decks or the Pike spin-off or anything else they produce will be? I think there's space for each show to explore one aspect of Trek in detail, and carve out its own path.

 

Anyway. We've already had one half-baked rehash of TNG and it was called Voyager. No-one wants that again, surely?

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24 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

Anyway. We've already had one half-baked rehash of TNG and it was called Voyager. No-one wants that again, surely?

:bye:

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58 minutes ago, Garwoofoo said:

 

See I actually think that's pretty reasonable. Science fiction has always acted as an allegory of the real world, and Star Trek has always been a product of its time. If TNG's spirit of optimism came from the end of the Cold War and America's economic ascendancy, Picard should reflect that it's written and produced in a very different time.

 

 

I have no problem with that, but only if the writers can figure out a way to do it which doesn’t necessitate bending character or setting. Picard does both. Turning the supernova into an empire ending event; Starfleet now using synthetics as a matter of course; the Federation containing 14 bigoted races; no other Admiral standing behind Picard when he threatened to resign. It goes on and on. 

 

Then we have a man who once said: ‘It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. It is life.’ Yet when we see him again he’s been in a fifteen year pity party, not even advocating for the Romulans outside Starfleet, just wallowing. Over an incident that was in no way his fault, and the only reason people are pissed off with him is that he ignored everything but his grapes and his housekeepers for fifteen years. Which is something that Picard would never do, except the plot needed it so he did. 

 

Staying true to a logical progression of A>B or in this case TNG>Picard does not automatically equal rehash, or preclude it from addressing modern day concerns. Unless the writers are hacks. 

 

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Here's that Star Trek Galaxy thing from RLM for those who were interested:

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7 hours ago, McCoy said:

Stewart is a great actor and fantastic as Picard but he should never be allowed any story control re Trek. 

 

This is not a reaction to STP, if you've read any TNG books his ideas about the character are usually not the best. 

 

That's not to say he doesn't deserve credit for parts of the Character but certainly the best aspects of the character were occasionally in spite of Stewart's ideas. 

 

Dune buggy was his idea.

In the book Fade In by Michael Pilar, who wrote Star Trrk Insurrection as well as a load of TNG it seems Stewart and Spiner are awful interfering bastards when it came to Trek scripts.

 

Stewart always wants Picard having 'fun' (i.e. fuxking and fighting) and Spiner seems to be a bit of a dick.

 

Here's the book https://pineapples101.files.wordpress.com

 

Sample quote: Letter from Stewart to Piller after reading Draft One of what became Insurrection:

 

"I think what dismays me most about the story is the dredging up
of the Romulans - a race already unexciting in TNG - as the bad
guys. It is revisionist and backward looking in a most
disappointing way. After the Borg - the Romulans? Oh, my."

 

Oh...

 

"Yes, the Romulan question does mean a lot to me. I think it is a
deadly idea to have even an ‘overhauled’ Romulan villain. After
the Borg Queen it will look as if we just couldn’t come up with
any new bad guys. But we must. Could they be the Federation
Executive Council? (Gene, stop spinning.) Or a cadre inside
the Council? The bad guys are right there in the heart of the
Federation. That is certainly contemporary and, God knows,
depressingly relevant."

 

Oh 2...

 

He explains elsewhere in a letter he prefers Picard less as "Captain/
Diplomat/Philosopher" as he was in the series and more as "Captain/Rebel/Activist" as he was from First Contact on. He feels it's more movie-appropriate. He may be right, but I'll wager that's not the Picard people love.

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8 hours ago, HarryBizzle said:


 

I’ve got a lot of love for TNG Stewart, but I don’t think he should be let near the creative side of things. I suspect he’s a lot like himself in Extras but with action scenes instead of ladies’ clothes falling off. I think Nemesis’ silly buggy scene was basically there because he wanted to mess about in a car. 

 

It literally was, apparently.

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I don't really disagree with Stewart there tbh. After the Borg and Borg queen, making up a new big bad Romulan sounds well dull. Although what we actually got with Insurrection is still shit.

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15 hours ago, Garibaldi said:

 

People accuse them of being haters, but they obviously love Star Trek and make some good points about Picard. 

 

Also saw an online Q&A with one of the writers, where he indirectly laid a lot of the blame for the isolationist Federation, Picard giving up etc at the feet of Patrick Stewart. Said he was fixated on drawing on current issues like Brexit and Trump, and that he wanted it to feel significantly different from TNG or he wasn’t coming back. All I can say to that is don’t have him back then. 

That’s depressing. TNG and DS9 have already tackled analogies to Brexit and Trump half-dozen times each already without overdoing it, and Stewart’s notorious creative meddling made the TNG films dogshit... 

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It's frustrating to see the 9/11 allegory sailing right over the RLM guys' heads though. "But whyyy would the Federation take this action because some unrelated event happened??" Fucking hell lads.

 

Maybe you really do need to make things crashingly obvious for the intended audience to pick up on them.

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11 hours ago, Garwoofoo said:

 

See I actually think that's pretty reasonable. Science fiction has always acted as an allegory of the real world, and Star Trek has always been a product of its time. If TNG's spirit of optimism came from the end of the Cold War and America's economic ascendancy, Picard should reflect that it's written and produced in a very different time.

 

Also, this is far from the only Star Trek series being produced at the moment and each is likely to have its own take. We've already had Discovery (brain-dead pew pew for newcomers to the franchise) and Picard (nostalgia for TNG fans), who knows what Lower Decks or the Pike spin-off or anything else they produce will be? I think there's space for each show to explore one aspect of Trek in detail, and carve out its own path.

 

Anyway. We've already had one half-baked rehash of TNG and it was called Voyager. No-one wants that again, surely?

 

I dunno, Star Trek has been in production through lots of dark times - Vietnam, Nixon etc - and has always chosen to extrapolate the positive aspects of humanity rather than exacerbating the negative, which is what a lot of sci-fi does. Star Trek has depicted internal threats to the core ideals of the Federation plenty of times, most notably in DS9's Homesfront/Paradise Lost two-parter but it's always been about overcoming those threats. 'Picard' depicts a Federation that has become fundamentally insular and racist over the course of 15 years, which doesn't feel true to the franchise and what we've seen before.

 

I don't even agree that it's a good analogy of the real world. Seeing Trump, Brexit etc as evidence that all of humanity is lost its way seems extremely defeatist to me. Star Trek, even DS9, was always optimistic.

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EXTERIOR, SAN FRANCISCO, DAY.
 

PICARD stands on the Golden Gate Bridge facing a large crowd, in front of the smouldering wreckage of the Ultra Mecha Borg Queen.
 

Picard: It was extremes that brought us to this point. Not only the fascistic tendencies of the Romulan Star Empire, but also the outdated and naive socialist values of the old Federation. That is why today I am pleased to announce that we will abolish the United Federation of Planets!

 

Picard rips down the Federation flag. The crowd gasps, then notices a new flag underneath it.

 

Picard: Today I am proud to announce the Centrist Federation of Sensible Moderate Planets. Our first order of business will be to introduce a 5 quatloo fee on the use of self-service replicators.

 

The crowd cheers.

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Reading those excerpts again makes me wonder if Picard having his bluff called when he threatens to resign, then basically being told to fuck off when he returns to Starfleet HQ after twenty years isn't a dig at Stewart, and some wish fulfillment on behalf of the writers. :lol:

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2 minutes ago, Garibaldi said:

Reading those excerpts again makes me wonder if Picard having his bluff called when he threatens to resign, then basically being told to fuck off when he returns to Starfleet HQ after twenty years isn't a dig at Stewart, and some wish fulfillment on behalf of the writers. :lol:

 

Weird thing is, he wasn't wrong about the problems of the original version of Insurrection but all of his 'solutions' were to make the characters more actiony, cooler, and sexier. None of which actually addressed the tv-ish nature of the plot.

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6 hours ago, Festoon said:

Stewart always wants Picard having 'fun' (i.e. fuxking and fighting) and Spiner seems to be a bit of a dick.

 

You're leaving out the bits where Stewart said that he didn't want Picard to be haunted or burdened by something in Insurrection, as he was by the death of his family and the Borg in Generations and First Contact. A lot of Stewart's concerns about the first draft of the script were bang on (Joss, Troi being little more than a convenient sex object). Stewart's aspirations are a bit silly to read now but I think he had an idea of what a 90s audience liked that was informed by their response to First Contact. Unfortunately it's not a perspective that has dated very well!

 

Spiner was simply upfront with his concerns about the story hinging on Data malfunctioning again and having an apparent heel turn after First Contact, plus another weird relationship with a grieving child, as he'd already done this in TNG. He didn't realise that Piller had written for Data as extensively as he had through rewrites on the series. I thought his problems with the story were legitimate but ultimately, like Stewart, he went along with it.

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31 minutes ago, DeciderVT said:

 

You're leaving out the bits where Stewart said that he didn't want Picard to be haunted or burdened by something in Insurrection, as he was by the death of his family and the Borg in Generations and First Contact. A lot of Stewart's concerns about the first draft of the script were bang on (Joss, Troi being little more than a convenient sex object). Stewart's aspirations are a bit silly to read now but I think he had an idea of what a 90s audience liked that was informed by their response to First Contact. Unfortunately it's not a perspective that has dated very well!

 

Spiner was simply upfront with his concerns about the story hinging on Data malfunctioning again and having an apparent heel turn after First Contact, plus another weird relationship with a grieving child, as he'd already done this in TNG. He didn't realise that Piller had written for Data as extensively as he had through rewrites on the series. I thought his problems with the story were legitimate but ultimately, like Stewart, he went along with it.

 

Yeah, they did identify problems but they provided very few solutions and further seemed to shackle the writers with requirements that didn't seem in any way helpful and seemed only to drive it into further tv-style mediocrity. Stewart wasn't moaning about the relationship he was to have even though that was a weak mirror of the already-done The Inner Light. Personally, I though the fountain-of-youth idea, done properly, would have been really great, but weirdly, the writers tiptoeing around the actors vanity  may have preventing them from pushing it more.

 

It's fascinating to see how headline stars can have a huge influence on the writing.

 

I think it's funny when RedLetterMedia are moaning about why Picard is a funny-acting French space pirate when that's exactly the vibe Stewart seems to feel Picard needs. You can see his positive response to the Horatio Hornblower-style opening of Generations.

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18 hours ago, Garibaldi said:

It has echos to the e-mail exchanges between Stewart and the screen-writers of Insurrection, where he basically said, in a roundabout way, that he was tired of Picard standing around making speeches and wanted to kick some arse. There was definitely a point there, and you feel it when reading the e-mails between them, that they should’ve said ‘we’ve done all we can to accommodate you, but this is the way it is,’ because writers acquiescing to the vision of a lead actor never ends well. In fact, it ends with Star Trek:Insurrection. 

 

I start to wonder why an Undiscovered Country-type movie was never considered for the TNG cast. It makes sense to have Picard introduced as a negotiator between two factions, who is set-up, arrested and imprisoned, and has to escape* and battle Starfleet allies to resolve a situation.

 

* By driving a dune buggy across the desert, perhaps.

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6 minutes ago, knightbeat said:

 

I start to wonder why an Undiscovered Country-type movie was never considered for the TNG cast. It makes sense to have Picard introduced as a negotiator between two factions, who is set-up, arrested and imprisoned, and has to escape* and battle Starfleet allies to resolve a situation.

 

* By driving a dune buggy across the desert, perhaps.

 

He didn't like the diplomat stuff.

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1 hour ago, Festoon said:

He didn't like the diplomat stuff.

 

There was very little diplomat stuff in Undiscovered Country, to be honest. My point is that the diplomacy angle acts as a way to justifiably involve Picard in a volatile situation. in which various parties might want him to kill/discredit him, and subsequently allow Stewart to drive dune buggies, fight aliens, etc.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Festoon said:

It's fascinating to see how headline stars can have a huge influence on the writing.

 

 

Absolutely. I bet it happens all the time, but not too many specifics seem to get out. The last big one I remember was Christian Bale apparently demanding that Terminator Salvation be re-written, as John Connor was originally more of a peripheral character and he felt it wouldn’t be worth his time. Could be the original screenplay was just as wobbly, but I’d love to read it and find out. 

 

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