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Marvel's Black Widow solo movie (Simultaneous cinema/Disney+ Premier Access release, July 2021)


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8 hours ago, Stigweard said:

Rey Winston was fucking terrible though, what the fuck was that accent about and The Taskmaster was so underused. I'm disappointed they wasted a good villain for such a pointless role that could have just been a generic super powered Widow instead. 

 

It seemed pretty clear to me that they fully realised how bad Winston was and that was why he was so (mercifully) minimised in the film.

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5 hours ago, taurusnipple said:

Doing a rewatch myself and did a doubtable take at the credits, Olga Kurylenko plays Taskmaster. 

 

I'd never have guessed.  Her face is on screen for about 10 seconds.  Maybe they have plans for her to return then.

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On 12/07/2021 at 08:23, Welrain said:

So the Red Guardian...(Endgame, Widow and Loki spoilers)

 

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Talked about fighting Captain America...chance we are going to see that happen?   I think Loki has confirmed that Captain America's happy ending happens in the main timeline so he is around at the time - so RG isn't lying (and has no reason to).

 

 


 

Spoiler

Based on FatWS I think it’s more likely he fought a Reagan-era cap replacement that probably didn’t work out in the long run.


Replacement Caps are not without precedent in the main comics continuity. Even if Isaiah Bradley and John Walker are accounted for there’s at least two or three others.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Monkeyboy said:

I’ve just read up on Taskmaster on Wikipedia. Seems a lot more interesting than what ended up in the film.

 

He is. They butchered the character here, it's basically taking his ability and doing absolutely nothing with it and pasting it into a cardboard cutout of another character.

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15 hours ago, Chindie said:

Yes

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Pugh is working for the Red Room at that point. It's stated later that she's one of the first generation of Widows to have been chemically subjugated. The gas breaks the effect. Presumably her mission at that point, unbeknownst to her, was to eliminate the threat to the Red Room that the gas represents. Unfortunately for them, the target as a last ditch uses the gas, presumably hoping to have someone pick up the cause.

 


 

Spoiler

Yelena refers to her by name as the gas is having its effects and removing the mind control, so I assume she’s a former widow. 

 

3 hours ago, Welrain said:

I’m hoping it’s a setup for future appearances. 


I think that’s probably the intention, it seems crazy to get anyone famous to play such a small role. Though I thought that about Glenn Close in Guardians and she is way more famous. 
 

That said, I’d bet that whatever stage infinity war was at when they were casting guardians they might have been keeping that option open. So I think the same is probably true of this. I don’t know if we’ll see taskmaster again but I assume right now Marvel are in early production on things that they could theoretically be part of. 

 

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57 minutes ago, MansizeRooster said:

I'm hoping that Taskmaster is more of a designation than an identity, and so the 'real' Taskmaster from the comics is yet to make an appearance.

I don't think so - they had that one scene at the beginning where they're really playing up the analysing terminator aspect, then the rest of it: it's someone who punches things - not adaptively learning.

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I will normally defend Ray Winstone, because of Sexy Beast, but how the fuck did he get past a table reading? 

 

He makes Kenneth Branagh's Russian/Glaswegian accent in Tenet, seem plausible.

 

Aside from that, it's a better Bourne-esque movie, than the last actual Bourne movie IMO.

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Back from seeing this tonight and was really disappointed with it - it'll go in the "Never watch again" pile of MCU films.

 

I was hoping that it would make me miss Black Widow a bit but it didn't, and it made me realise that what I really liked was her relationship with the other Avengers - the Cap in particular, so nothing in this held any emotional weight for me. I also didn't really find the core story itself very interesting and it felt a bit odd having a Marvel film with some slightly coarse language (relatively speaking, of course).

 

It was all therefore quite boring, with the middle of the film in particular dragging and the final act lacked any peril. Even though I only saw it a couple of hours ago, I don't actually remember all that much action, which shows how much I must've thought of it and, to top it off, Ray Winstone was abominable (I like how he went all East London when he started shouting).

 

It did have some funny lines dotted throughout, but there was probably a better story to tell with that cast than what we ended up with. If this is to be 'our' Black Widow's last appearance (because who knows with these films), then it was, for me, very much a damp squib.

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30 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Back from seeing this tonight and was really disappointed with it - it'll go in the "Never watch again" pile of MCU films.

 

I was hoping that it would make me miss Black Widow a bit but it didn't, and it made me realise that what I really liked was her relationship with the other Avengers - the Cap in particular, so nothing in this held any emotional weight for me. I also didn't really find the core story itself very interesting and it felt a bit odd having a Marvel film with some slightly coarse language (relatively speaking, of course).

 

It was all therefore quite boring, with the middle of the film in particular dragging and the final act lacked any peril. Even though I only saw it a couple of hours ago, I don't actually remember all that much action, which shows how much I must've thought of it and, to top it off, Ray Winstone was abominable (I like how he went all East London when he started shouting).

 

It did have some funny lines dotted throughout, but there was probably a better story to tell with that cast than what we ended up with. If this is to be 'our' Black Widow's last appearance (because who knows with these films), then it was, for me, very much a damp squib.

 

What else is in your never watch again column? And have you seen all of the MCU movies?

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On 17/07/2021 at 00:38, drmick said:

 

What else is in your never watch again column? And have you seen all of the MCU movies?

I've watched all of the MCU entries, yes, and perhaps going against the grain on some of them, I don't intend to watch the following ever again (I'll spoiler just in there's somebody out there who hasn't seen them and for whom my comments might ruin stuff):

Spoiler

Iron Man 3: I remember being bored senseless, disengaged with the twist and the real villain reveal, plus it had Super Pepper Potts, urgh.

Thor 2: I barely remember this, other than quite a bit being in Greenwich.

GotG2: Was this before Thor Ragnarok? I don't remember, but this went far too far trying to be funny. Plus it really irked me that they played the whole "I'll give up my mask and suffocate" scene again but killed off Michael Rooker. It held no weight at all - plus the Stallone cameo felt horribly out of place and wooden. Was massively disappointed with this, given how much I loved the first film.

Black Panther: From cheap CGI to feeling that Boseman was a charisma vacuum - I thought he had more gravitas and poise in his Civil War cameo - I really didn't like this at all.

Ant Man and The Wasp: All the quantum realm stuff just didn't grab me, I thought the villain - such as she was - was lacking any kind of presence and it just felt a bit tired. Rudd was still great though.

Black Widow: As above.

 

There are some others that I didn't really like and don't plan to watch again but have either seen bits of because my other half is going through watching all of the films/if they are on in the background I might dip in and out:

 

Spoiler

Thor Ragnarok: I know this is a forum favourite but I thought it was trying too hard to be funny, I don't think the Hulk is a particularly interesting character in the MCU and that whole plotline dragged the film down. The best bit is Hela's introduction.

Iron Man 2: I came out of the cinema angry I'd wasted my money on it. Sam Rockwell steals the show, but everything around him is dire.

Captain America: I don't hate this, but despite loving Evans in the role, I've just never got around to watching it again. I remember feeling the origin stuff dragged a little - and it was definitely less bang-bang-punch-punch that other films - but I thought it was decent on my only watch so far.

Spider-Man Homecoming: Another forum favourite, and I know it isn't properly part of the MCU, but I'd thought I count it anyway. I have actually seen bits of it for a second time but to me it always felt like an Iron Man plus sidekick film and it felt almost like it was pandering specifically to RDJ. I appreciated the smaller scale of it all - in keeping with the 'neighbourhood Spider-Man' theme - but it really was the Iron Man worship that did it for me.

Spider-Man Far From Home: Perhaps not a surprise given the above, but I was pretty non-plussed with this at the cinema too, again dragged-down by the IM stuff. I did actually quite like the set-up of the villain and the camaraderie between Parker and Mysterio though. I'd possibly have this on in the background one day.

 

Overall the whole MCU experience has had its fair share of missteps in my eyes over the years, to the effect that whilst I really did love Infinity War and Endgame, I don't really have much enthusiasm for what's to come; indeed, I was probably going to skip Black Widow but my girlfriend wanted to watch it, so we did (she enjoyed it, for what it's worth.)

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@Gabe I agree with you about Ironman 3 and Black Panther (regrettably, it just does nothing for me) but I would urge you to at least give Ant-Man & the Wasp another chance. Granted, I’m not sure anything will eclipse the gigantic Thomas the Tank Engine moment from the first movie, but the whole thing barrels along with a tremendous sense of fun and irreverence, it’s hard not to enjoy it even a little bit. 

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I enjoyed it very much. Another great block of MCU to add to the world they've helped build in my head. 

 

My only issue was the CGI. It seemed to be running too fast for the vehicle tumbles and armoured personnel carrier thing. 

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12 hours ago, Popo said:

@Gabe I agree with you about Ironman 3 and Black Panther (regrettably, it just does nothing for me) but I would urge you to at least give Ant-Man & the Wasp another chance. Granted, I’m not sure anything will eclipse the gigantic Thomas the Tank Engine moment from the first movie, but the whole thing barrels along with a tremendous sense of fun and irreverence, it’s hard not to enjoy it even a little bit. 

I didn't hate it, I was just bored by it. I think the triumph of the first film was the smaller scale, whereas upping the stakes (shrinking buildings, ghosts, time spent in the quantum realm) didn't really work in my eyes. I think that's in part because Ant-Man as a character doesn't really interest me, what I like is Rudd's 'man on the street' portrayal of him. I also felt Pfeiffer's performance was - ironically, given her situation - weirdly out of place, though I can't really say why.

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On 17/07/2021 at 02:07, Gabe said:

I've watched all of the MCU entries, yes, and perhaps going against the grain on some of them, I don't intend to watch the following ever again (I'll spoiler just in there's somebody out there who hasn't seen them and for whom my comments might ruin stuff):

  Hide contents

Iron Man 3: I remember being bored senseless, disengaged with the twist and the real villain reveal, plus it had Super Pepper Potts, urgh.

Thor 2: I barely remember this, other than quite a bit being in Greenwich.

GotG2: Was this before Thor Ragnarok? I don't remember, but this went far too far trying to be funny. Plus it really irked me that they played the whole "I'll give up my mask and suffocate" scene again but killed off Michael Rooker. It held no weight at all - plus the Stallone cameo felt horribly out of place and wooden. Was massively disappointed with this, given how much I loved the first film.

Black Panther: From cheap CGI to feeling that Boseman was a charisma vacuum - I thought he had more gravitas and poise in his Civil War cameo - I really didn't like this at all.

Ant Man and The Wasp: All the quantum realm stuff just didn't grab me, I thought the villain - such as she was - was lacking any kind of presence and it just felt a bit tired. Rudd was still great though.

Black Widow: As above.

 

There are some others that I didn't really like and don't plan to watch again but have either seen bits of because my other half is going through watching all of the films/if they are on in the background I might dip in and out:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Thor Ragnarok: I know this is a forum favourite but I thought it was trying too hard to be funny, I don't think the Hulk is a particularly interesting character in the MCU and that whole plotline dragged the film down. The best bit is Hela's introduction.

Iron Man 2: I came out of the cinema angry I'd wasted my money on it. Sam Rockwell steals the show, but everything around him is dire.

Captain America: I don't hate this, but despite loving Evans in the role, I've just never got around to watching it again. I remember feeling the origin stuff dragged a little - and it was definitely less bang-bang-punch-punch that other films - but I thought it was decent on my only watch so far.

Spider-Man Homecoming: Another forum favourite, and I know it isn't properly part of the MCU, but I'd thought I count it anyway. I have actually seen bits of it for a second time but to me it always felt like an Iron Man plus sidekick film and it felt almost like it was pandering specifically to RDJ. I appreciated the smaller scale of it all - in keeping with the 'neighbourhood Spider-Man' theme - but it really was the Iron Man worship that did it for me.

Spider-Man Far From Home: Perhaps not a surprise given the above, but I was pretty non-plussed with this at the cinema too, again dragged-down by the IM stuff. I did actually quite like the set-up of the villain and the camaraderie between Parker and Mysterio though. I'd possibly have this on in the background one day.

 

Overall the whole MCU experience has had its fair share of missteps in my eyes over the years, to the effect that whilst I really did love Infinity War and Endgame, I don't really have much enthusiasm for what's to come; indeed, I was probably going to skip Black Widow but my girlfriend wanted to watch it, so we did (she enjoyed it, for what it's worth.)


An excellent list of never watch again, I would add 

Spoiler

Captain Marvel and Iron Man 2

 

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On 07/07/2021 at 15:32, NickC said:

There was one rather awkward bit of dialogue, be interested to see if anyone else thought this was odd:

 

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Post-fight banter begins after the prison break and Alexei scolds his daughters.

 

Yelena punches her father in the face.

 

Alexei says something like "What was that for, are you on your period?!"

 

Natasha and Yelena go on to explain that they can't have periods, and give a fairly detailed explanation of the FGM they suffered when under the control of the authorities in their journey to become Widows.

 

Alexei says something like "Eww, too much information kids!"

 

Post-fight banter resumes.

 

Just felt like quite an interesting topic sandwiched into some light relief dialogue, it didn't land for me.

 

On 09/07/2021 at 18:04, makkuwata said:

I did have a moment of wondering if Jos Whedon had a pass on this script, given the awkward dialogue mentioned above.

 

It’s difficult to understand how that makes the final cut given that it must have been poured over for years since it first wrapped.

Spoiler

That bit was surely Marvel's attempt to acknowledge the infamous scene he wrote into Age of Ultron, which has caused people to spend the last six years debating whether "monster" refers to "former killer" or "woman who can't have children".

 

Also: Alexei's response ("you don't have to get so clinical and nasty!") was delivered in a way that sounded exactly like it could've come from Nandor in What We Do in the Shadows. Not only because of the accent, but also the offended tone. :lol:

 

 

 

First cinema visit since Parasite nearly 18 months ago! :omg: I went today not because of the Freedom Day thing, but because it's been 2 weeks since my vaccination dose #2, and the schools haven't broken up for the holidays yet.

 

A really odd experience walking up towards the cinema after so long - feels like it's only been about 6 months since I was last there!

 

 

 

The film was pretty solidly mid-tier MCU. Roughly on the Ant-Man/Dr Strange/Captain Marvel/Spidey Far From Home level. When it came to the Tom Clancy-esque covert spy/special forces stuff, this was probably the best that side of things has been done in the MCU since the non-Wakanda bits of Black Panther, if not since Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

 

Spoiler

The opening scene wrong-footed me. Yes, my first assumption was that we were seeing Young Natasha - but at the same time, it seemed equally likely that we could be introduced to a family who were going to be the victims of an assassination by Natasha or another Black Widow. (How dark!) So it took me a few minutes before I was sure what we were being shown.

 

It took a lot more from the Mark Waid/Chris Samnee Black Widow comics run than I was expecting. That too was about a new generation of Red Room girls, and had a first issue based around a fall from a sky base (in the comic, a helicarrier).

 

So much collateral damage in the jailbreak scene! How many of those prisoners and guards d'you think survived that avalanche? (Yeah, there's a quick shot of some of them running into a doorway/shelter of some kind, but still...)

 

 

Three things that I thought the movie would do, and then it didn't:

 

1. I thought that Natasha goading Ray Winstone's character into punching her was going to mean he'd break her mind control the same way that she broke Hawkeye's in Avengers. Nope! (Speaking of which: hey, it turns out that Mind Stone Mind Control is easier to break than Pheromone Mind Control!)

 

2. I thought that Red Guardian/Taskmaster fight was going to have Taskmaster using Captain America's fighting style, thus allowing him to finally fulfil his claim that he'd beaten Cap in a fight. But nope: Taskmaster imitates Black Panther instead!

 

3. In the post-credits scene I really thought that the whistling was going to cause the gravestone to open up into a Secret Compartment of Stashed Items. Nope!

 

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Whole thing felt really out of place and should have been released years ago. Can understand why they held off on making a BW film if it was the best they could come up, so bland and happy I didn't waste the cash. I'm just hoping this is the last of the Marvel turds after some awful TV shows.

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I have to say, the more I think about this, the less favourable my view of it becomes.

 

It seems it can't decide what to be: Is it a buddy road movie? A spy thriller? A superhero film? A big blockbuster all-actioned or a smaller character piece? 

 

It's at times all/some/none of those things, often within the same scene and it just feels all so incoherent.

 

Spoiler

The actual villain of the piece has no presence and there's no real show of what he can do or why anybody should care all that much. After all, the most threatening thing we see in the film is Red Guardian having his food eaten :P

 

It feels like it wants to play out a smaller story on a grand scale and fails miserably. The biggest sin, for me, is that I don't feel any closer to Black Widow as a character than before I watched it. Indeed, in the same way I thought Black Panther was far more interesting in his Civil War cameo than his own film, the same is true here. I just didn't get any real sense of who she was, versus the little snippets that were distributed through her other MCU appearences, which made her feel more rounded. 

 

Also, as somebody posted earlier in the thread, they took a line from The Avengers (about Budapest) and tried to make it 'something' here, and again it just didn't land. For starters, the line in The Avengers was played for the lols and BW's delivery of her line is almost wistful and a fun recollection, whereas here they tried to make it some big dark moment in her life. 

 

I wonder what the original treatment for the potential Hawkeye film was like... 

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Spoiler

What annoyed me about this film (well, among other issues) is that at the beginning it felt as if it was going to be the Winter Soldier sequel we didn’t quite get because Civil War was The Avengers 2.5. Then a pivotal scene signifies a gear change, and we get more of an ersatz Phase 1 film instead. I have no idea if this was based on an older script that was revised for the post-Endgame MCU, or it was a deliberate creative decision, or otherwise, but it is my main issue with the film. Apart from the awful dialogue exchange about menstruation, obv.

 

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1 hour ago, MansizeRooster said:

You guys are thinking too hard about this. It's a dumb comic book action movie. 

 

I've watched it twice now. Cracking action set-pieces and hard-hitting combat. I think it gets a 8/10 from me.

If you don't like something then you naturally see more things you regard as flaws, I think the comment "thinking too hard about it" is pretty dismissive and suggests we shouldn't apply any critical thinking to stuff. 

 

Besides, this is a discussion forum and people are just explaining why they did/didn't like it, and discussion is good, no? It's not as if this thread has been littered with loads of drive-by posts. 

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3 hours ago, MansizeRooster said:

You guys are thinking too hard about this. It's a dumb comic book action movie. 

 

I've watched it twice now. Cracking action set-pieces and hard-hitting combat. I think it gets a 8/10 from me.

Perhaps we’re actually aware that these are “comic book action movies”, but expect a certain level of consistent quality? I mean, we know that the MCU and similar genre fare aren’t high art, we’re under no illusions about that. However what we’ve seen over the last decade or more is cinematic adaptations of comics being taken to new levels, better quality entertainment than we’ve ever seen before. We’ve seen the MCU do much better. Popular mass-market entertainment needn’t be crap.

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