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Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (December 2019)


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1 hour ago, JLM said:

Then Luke completes his own redemptive arc by saving the resistance from the latest Ben Solo atrocity and checking out in the most Force-y, Luke Skywalker-y and Jedi-y way imagineable.

 

I agree with most of your points about TLJ but the trilogy's use of the OT characters, and in particular their deaths, was another sore point for me. For Luke specifically, what was the purpose of his sacrifice? His death itself was nicely handled, sure, but when he finally stepped in and consumed the last of his powers in doing so, as far as I recall all he did was point out a back door and buy them about ten minutes headstart, after which they ended up in the same chase as they would have anyway. It just didn't feel that noble to me, more - and I suspect unintentionally - a desperate and rather ineffective last minute gesture. Of course, Han's demise was even worse: just cheap shorthand to establish how terrible Ren was, as far as I remember. I'm not even sure that

Spoiler

Leia's was any better, as it just seemed to be a momentary distraction in the fight, and it was Rey's decision to save Ren that actually made him reconsider. It seemed like this could have happened quite easily without Leia's involvement at all - e.g. the usual snatching victory from the jaws of defeat trope - so rendering that a bit unsatisfactory as well.

 

I mean, I understand it was a somewhat difficult balancing act - either the trilogy ends up dominated by the original characters, or you have to find ways of only sporadically involving them - but it was another dramatic aspect that they didn't really get right for me.

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33 minutes ago, Mr Combo Breaker said:

Nah, it just annoyed me and they tried to do a Bilbo Baggins scary teeth thing and it was stupid.


I was more distracted by her dumb toyetic lightsaber. Which of course you can already buy replicas of.

 

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See also her pulling out a lightsaber at the end and showing it to the camera and then turning it on for no reason whatsoever, just so that Disney can flog more merch.

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TLJ is s far more coherent film

than ROS, and a far more interesting film than TFA, so by default is the best of the new trilogy. There’s nothing in ROS as dumb as BB8 in a walker or CGI casino though, although attack of the space gnus comes close.
 

The crap CGI casino was shoehorned in by the techies who told Johnson there was no money left to do them as live action scenes, despite them already building an enormous casino set. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, K said:

The approach for the new Star Wars stuff was to have director-led films that give each director a lot of leeway to do what they want, rather than to have producer-led films that follow an overarching plan. The Marvel films (with a few exceptions) are not director-led at all, and are generally helmed by TV directors, older journeyman directors for hire, and younger directors who can copy the house style. 
 

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either approach in itself, and I’d say it’s resulted in more interesting films on the Star Wars side, but it does mean there’s less consistency. I strongly suspect that you’d find it more difficult to recruit a-list directors to make a Star Wars film if you told them they’d have to follow the overall plan, rather than telling them they’d have a blank page (subject to the producers liking their take on it).

I think you hit the nail on the head. But when I watch an absolute mess like RoS it seems to be abundantly clear that there should have been more of an overall plan and just making it up as you go has resulted in miserable failure. I don't think there is anything wrong with resurrecting the Emperor as such but that has to be built up to, not tacked on at the end to placate the fanboys -- it reeks of desperation, which itself stinks of complete mismanagement! 

If you think that most successful films have a three act structure and are actually pretty disciplined about how that works, then it follows that a trilogy scales that up. At the end of the day, you need nine acts which hang together. There can be plenty of freedom for creativity within that structure but it needs to exist.

Disney spent a billion dollars making a trilogy but it really seems like nobody ever thought to put nine post it notes on a board and think about how it worked. I'm not saying it's easy but it needs to be attempted and not even trying suggests a gobsmacking level of hubris on the part of those involved.

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On 29/08/2019 at 08:42, mdn2 said:

I genuinely hope they don't back down from the 'Rey's parents being nobodies' thing. It was my favourite thing from TLJ by far. They even doubled down on the 'Anyone can be special' at the end with the slave kid with Force powers. If it turns out that Rey is Palpatine's illegitimate daughter or something it'll probably kill the trilogy for me. 

I genuinely don't remember writing this until I got a notification someone had upvoted it. :blink:

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3 hours ago, JLM said:

The idea that Luke would be happy with everything that happened in the OT  because his dad came around in the end is insane to me. The rebellion lost many many people, entire planets were destroyed, what his father became was utterly horrifying despite his eventual redemption (and death!). I think the events of the OT would give him many many reasons to question whether or not this Jedi thing was a great idea. 

 

 

But we don't see that, we only assume that in order to make sense of the incoherent choices he makes in TLJ. That is the main problem. None of Luke's shifts are justifiable by storytelling, we can only assume this or that based on our interpretation because we need to justify what he does and fill the holes. In the end of the OT Luke's faith in the the light side is so strong that he brings down the empire. Surely this win should be what makes him feel vindicated by his choice. The Jedi win, the world is saved and the war ends. And as in all wars, there are mistakes, casualties and sacrifices.

 

If he wants to question the Jedi ways make a story about it and show us his struggle and his doubts. That would make his character arc make sense in this trilogy.

 

 

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2 hours ago, labarte said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with resurrecting the Emperor as such but that has to be built up to, not tacked on at the end to placate the fanboys -- it reeks of desperation, which itself stinks of complete mismanagement! 

 

While I agree Palps needed foreshadowing, I'm not sure I agree it was there to placate the fanboys. 

 

After TLJ, where do you go? Either you are all in on Kylo Ren being bad - entirely plausible, he killed Han Solo and became Grand High Evil Wizard - or...? 

You need something else or some other threat, and you've only a film to set it up and resolve it. There's a limited set of options. The Emperor is there, known and on hand. 

 

 

Interviews from the writers seem to confirm they hadn't a fucking clue where to go next. 

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5 minutes ago, kensei said:

Interviews from the writers seem to confirm they hadn't a fucking clue where to go next. 

Got any links for this?

 

I’d love to know how it all turned out to be such a mess. It seems like they really didn’t have a plan from the outset and we’ve all said it many times in here, but I do wonder if that’s actually the case. It seems like complete madness to not even have an outlined grand plot to take through the trilogy, but maybe it was just badly handled.

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5 hours ago, K said:

The approach for the new Star Wars stuff was to have director-led films that give each director a lot of leeway to do what they want, rather than to have producer-led films that follow an overarching plan. The Marvel films (with a few exceptions) are not director-led at all, and are generally helmed by TV directors, older journeyman directors for hire, and younger directors who can copy the house style. 
 

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either approach in itself, and I’d say it’s resulted in more interesting films on the Star Wars side, but it does mean there’s less consistency. I strongly suspect that you’d find it more difficult to recruit a-list directors to make a Star Wars film if you told them they’d have to follow the overall plan, rather than telling them they’d have a blank page (subject to the producers liking their take on it).

 

The problem with the Star Wars approach is that it’s probably too expensive to have multiple teams working on each main-sequence film, so they only have eighteen to twenty four months to do each one. 

 

Pre Episode 7 - getting A List directors would not have been a problem. I'm sure many of them knocked on Disney's door as it seemed such a dream gig. Now however such is the potential damage I suspect Disney are going to have to pay a lot more to get good people.

 

It didn't have to be this way. Having writer\directors has been the problem. And especially wreckless with no clear plan or arc.

 

Lucasfilm should have had separate writers that were in control of the overall narrative and story beats - and then interesting visionary directors to bring those stories to life visually. Pretty straight forward and standard stuff. I guess the reason this didn't happen is because there was no time to organise and Disney wanted these films out - come what may.

 

I think in the future they will teach classes on the creation of Episode 7, 8 and 9 - as an exercise in how NOT to reinvent a franchise.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

 

Pre Episode 7 - getting A List directors would not have been a problem. I'm sure many of them knocked on Disney's door as it seemed such a dream gig. Now however such is the potential damage I suspect Disney are going to have to pay a lot more to get good people.

 

It didn't have to be this way. Having writer\directors has been the problem. And especially wreckless with no clear plan or arc.

 

Lucasfilm should have had separate writers that were in control of the overall narrative and story beats - and then interesting visionary directors to bring those stories to life visually. Pretty straight forward and standard stuff. I guess the reason this didn't happen is because there was no time to organise and Disney wanted these films out - come what may.

 

I think in the future they will teach classes on the creation of Episode 7, 8 and 9 - as an exercise in how NOT to reinvent a franchise.

 

 


Standard stuff? 

 

Who else is doing this? It’s clear how much people take Feige and Marvel’s accomplishments for granted if that’s seen as standard stuff. 

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40 minutes ago, kensei said:

While I agree Palps needed foreshadowing, I'm not sure I agree it was there to placate the fanboys. 

 

After TLJ, where do you go? Either you are all in on Kylo Ren being bad - entirely plausible, he killed Han Solo and became Grand High Evil Wizard - or...? 

You need something else or some other threat, and you've only a film to set it up and resolve it. There's a limited set of options. The Emperor is there, known and on hand. 

I didn't really mean that Palpatine was there just for the fanboys, but you are right they had nowhere else much to go with it. It wasn't just that Snoke was killed but the link between Rey and Kylo meant they were destined to team up and fight someone other than each other.

The idea that Snoke was a decoy created by the Emperor is actually pretty cool but it needed to be woven into the trilogy much better. Then you have Palpantine's massive fleet of death star-level star destroyers, which makes First Order basically pointless. So was the whole First Order just a decoy too? It's really not worth thinking about because it's all so badly done and doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

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Just now, Sarlaccfood said:


Standard stuff? 

 

Who else is doing this? It’s clear how much people take Feige and Marvel’s accomplishments for granted if that’s seen as standard stuff. 

 

I think standard stuff means they all have directorial style that is pretty consistent across the different films. Though I'd argue that GofG, Thor Ragnorak and WS show there is a range of distinct styles across the franchise. 

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Credits for original trilogy:

 

ANH

Directed by George Lucas

Produced by Gary Kurtz

Written by George Lucas

ESB

Directed by Irvin Kershner

Produced by Gary Kurtz

Screenplay by Leigh Brackett, Lawrence Kasdan

Story by George Lucas

RotJ

Directed by Richard Marquand

Produced by Howard Kazanjian

Screenplay by Lawrence Kasdan, George Lucas

Story by George Lucas

 

Credits for latest trilogy:

 

TFA

Directed by J. J. Abrams

Produced by Kathleen Kennedy, J. J. Abrams, Bryan Burk

Written by Lawrence Kasdan, J. J. Abrams, Michael Arndt

Based on Characters by George Lucas

 

TLJ

Directed by Rian Johnson

Produced by Kathleen Kennedy, Ram Bergman

Written by Rian Johnson

Based on Characters by George Lucas

 

RoS

Directed by J. J. Abrams

Produced by Kathleen Kennedy, J. J. Abrams, Michelle Rejwan

Screenplay by J. J. Abrams, Chris Terrio

Story by Derek Connolly, Colin Trevorrow, J. J. Abrams, Chris Terrio

Based on Characters by George Lucas

 

Too many cooks spoil the broth. By the time you get to RoS you've got four people with story credits!

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3 minutes ago, labarte said:

I didn't really mean that Palpatine was there just for the fanboys, but you are right they had nowhere else much to go with it. It wasn't just that Snoke was killed but the link between Rey and Kylo meant they were destined to team up and fight someone other than each other.

 

 

I don't think this is true, the link could just as easily mean that they were destined to destroy each other - bringing balance to the force.

 

Off the top of my head here are some things they could have done -

 

Rey and Ren fight - during the course of the fight Ren bests Rey but he realises via Liea/Han that he can't bring himself to kill her because that would *truly* and *definitively * commit him to the dark.

( Perhaps, not knowing this, Finn kills him last minute thinking he is saving Rey - because Ren has to die - but Rey knows at the end Ren chose the light and burys him as Ben Solo a la Luke and Vader)

 

Rey turns Ren to the light (maybe this plays out similarly to this movie with Rey healing him), Meanwhile Hux, who is played more like the fanatical space nazi of the first film, has been plotting some mad macguffin and has enlisted the Knights of Ren to his cause. The Knights of Ren will actually be formidable- rather than just a nonsense crew. Ren and Rey have to do a mad fight against them and some elite storm troopers (like Vader in RO.) They have to race against the clock to stop whatever doomsday bollocks Hux has constructed. Ren sacrifices himself to destroy it.

 

Sick of Rens shit, Hux has secretly working to clone Snoke, whom he was truly loyal too (we can add in some rubbish like Snoke is his father, which is why he always resented Snoke, favouring Ren because people love family reveals. But new Snoke kills him because Hux can't use the force and Snoke kinda hates him- here we can get some Snoke back story). He brings Snoke Clone back or (a Snoke Vader type thing back for remember berries.) Ren and Rey defeat it but Ren is mortally wounded.

 

Hux uses Snokes remains to genitically create a big Sith/Jedi killing monster. Hoping to wipe out the force users so he can get rid of the superstitious magic that has been stopping decent space dictators from running an efficient Empire. The Snoke-beast can shoot sith lightening and force push in an animalistic way but is pretty mindless.

 

Rey and Ren team up, and learn that light and dark sides are part of nature and one cannot deny your emotions like the Jedi creed or be a slave to them like the Sith. They fuck up storm troops each using skills from the other side. Ren being calm and Rey accepting her anger but using it for good. In the end, they both go off to seclusion because they realise the force is a natural element and shouldn't be used to influence the galaxy in the name of 'good' or 'evil'. 

 

Now all of these are pretty hokey, but use elements/characters that have been set up in the previous films and could follow on some of the themes of the last movie.I'm sure actual writers could think of something better. 

 

The point is, saying "there is no where to go so we'll have to do some awkward gear changing recon and bring magically bring back a dead character" is just lazy.

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2 hours ago, JPL said:

Got any links for this?

 

I’d love to know how it all turned out to be such a mess. It seems like they really didn’t have a plan from the outset and we’ve all said it many times in here, but I do wonder if that’s actually the case. It seems like complete madness to not even have an outlined grand plot to take through the trilogy, but maybe it was just badly handled.

 

Stuff like this:

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019/12/30/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-writer-chris-terrio-biggest-problem-from-the-last-jedi-snoke-palpatine/

 

They really didn't want Ren to stay bad

 

@Delarg'ey Firstly, it's important to state that Grey Jedi or any variation thereof, are, have been and always will be a shit idea. Star Wars is soapy nonsense and about as sophisticated as WWE. It needs goodies and baddies. That's all part of the fun. No grey jedi was my only wish for this film.

 

Secondly, the other stuff you mention would still have needed set up in previous films. Hux? The Last Jedi turned Hux into a figure of fun in literally one of the worst decisions in the entire series. Tarkin was a malevolent presence in his own right. The Last Jedi actually set up a neat little confrontation between Hux and Kylo in the throne room - who commands the First Order,  with Snoke dead? His apprentice or the commander of the armies? It's actually not necessarily a clear decision. But the Last Jedi blew it, like it blew almost every major potential moment it worked so hard blowing up expectations to create.

 

Personally, I'd have went all in on Supreme Leader Kylo - you kill Han Solo, redemption should be fairly impossible and I'd like to see more exploration of the Dark Side in the main films. But once you don't do that, I totally get how you are in a bit of a corner and reach for bringing Palpatine back - and I think complaining "He definitely died" in this sort of film is madness. They brought Harold from Neighbours back and he definitely died - and the only difference between Soap Opera and Space Opera is lasers. I think no one was crying out for him to return, but once he's in they did about as well as they could. 

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4 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

Secondly, the other stuff you mention would still have needed set up in previous films. Hux? The Last Jedi turned Hux into a figure of fun in literally one of the worst decisions in the entire series. Tarkin was a malevolent presence in his own right. The Last Jedi actually set up a neat little confrontation between Hux and Kylo in the throne room - who commands the First Order,  with Snoke dead? His apprentice or the commander of the armies? It's actually not necessarily a clear decision. But the Last Jedi blew it, like it blew almost every major potential moment it worked so hard blowing up expectations to create.

 

 

It's really not hard to turn that into a character point for Hux, being Humiliated constantly by Ren, was the motivation for him snap to do XYZ.

 

The Last Jedi set up the connection and conflict between Rey and Ren - that's what the finale act should have been.

 

For me bringing back the Emperor is a cheap move. Of course, you can complain about it! Space Opera and Soap Operas are very different things and I think it's not unreasonable to hold this movie to a higher standard than Neighbours!

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2 hours ago, kensei said:

While I agree Palps needed foreshadowing, I'm not sure I agree it was there to placate the fanboys. 

 

After TLJ, where do you go? Either you are all in on Kylo Ren being bad - entirely plausible, he killed Han Solo and became Grand High Evil Wizard - or...? 

You need something else or some other threat, and you've only a film to set it up and resolve it. There's a limited set of options. The Emperor is there, known and on hand. 

 

22 minutes ago, kensei said:

The Last Jedi actually set up a neat little confrontation between Hux and Kylo in the throne room - who commands the First Order,  with Snoke dead? His apprentice or the commander of the armies? It's actually not necessarily a clear decision. But the Last Jedi blew it, like it blew almost every major potential moment it worked so hard blowing up expectations to create.

 

At the risk of going into "this is how would have done it..." fanfic...

 

One thing I've been wondering ever since seeing the film: would it have been better if the Emperor had not been presented as already alive at the start of the film? Would it have been sufficient to have the prospect of the Emperor's resurrection as the final film's overarching threat - in a similar way to how Voldemort was absent from the first four Harry Potter books, but his return (at the hands of his loyal acolytes and puppets) was an ever-present threat?

 

Maybe this means we could get more out of the villains pulling in different directions: Kylo Ren attempts to reshape the First Order in his direction; Hux tries to undermine him (so you keep and expand the spy subplot); Richard E Grant's character secretly works on his own agenda to resurrect Palpatine?

 

Then for the climax of the film, the big reveal is Palpatine's successful resurrection,

Spoiler

with all the sky-filling Force Lightning powers he displays in the released film. IMO it was overkill to introduce that level of Force power in addition to the super-secret fleet of planet-destroying Star Destroyers (with all the associated questions that brings up). Just the Force Lightning and the existing First Order military would have been enough!

 

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Just got back from seeing it.

 

Not as bad as I thought it would be, but it wasnt amazing either. My mate turned to me as that scene near the end with Rey and Ren happened and guessed what would happen next, and said "fucking rubbish". We both facepalmed as it unfolded as he had said it would :facepalm:

 

Other than that, not too bad really. I suppose.

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It was all just so... boring. Lots of big set pieces super glued together for no rhyme or reason. Rey's biggest scene seemed to consist of her being constipated.. was it is with all these rubbish actors and the "I'm just on the toilet look" for rage?

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