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Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (December 2019)

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2 hours ago, macosx said:

Just back from seeing it and thought

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Why did Leia’s green lightsaber turn blue after the training screen with Luke. Green and blue make yellow.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Hers was blue, Lukes is green.

 

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Already been covered, stig. 

 

As for Rose, it wouldn't surprise me at all if JJ had to fight to include her at all. They could have left her out completely saying she died at the end of TLJ, and given the massive (and ridiculous) backlash against her after TLJ, I can easily see the execs saying "just leave her out".  Wasn't there a poster released with her edited out, with the original artist having to come out and say he did include her? It did stink that she was sidelined in TRoS, especially when the film introduced new characters that weren't really necessary. 

 

People are laying all the perceived faults of TLJ and TRoS solely at the feet of the films' respective directors. I feel it's nowhere near that simple. 

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50 minutes ago, yakumo said:

To be fair JJ was in a kobayashi maru situation.

Had to google that as am not a Star Trek fan, guess it means no win situation?  Don’t buy that. There were lots of interesting ways you could have taken the story after TLJ. Taking the force away from one small family, and extending it to a spark that ignited an uprising was an incredibly exciting prospect.
 

Regardless of what people felt of TLJ, it was a far better directed film. Scenes and characters were given room to breathe. Action was often followed by reflection. And it had a far greater through line.

 

I do think that the new film improves on reflection, but it’s first half an hour really hinders it. I sat there for that period thinking, damn this is a bit ropey, but over time it won me over. Could’ve been so much more though.

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The problem with Rose is where do you put her? The Finn love interest angle was rightly dropped - it came out of nowhere in TLJ with zero chemistry. Its already a busy film. I don't think there's in anything sinister in it, I suspect they didn't know what to do with her. 

 

And I know they added a fair few side characters for various quests, but the film really pulled back to the core characters from TFA for the most part. And I much prefer them making the world bigger by introducing new people that reusing old ones. 

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46 minutes ago, Thor said:

Already been covered, stig. 

 

As for Rose, it wouldn't surprise me at all if JJ had to fight to include her at all. They could have left her out completely saying she died at the end of TLJ, and given the massive (and ridiculous) backlash against her after TLJ, I can easily see the execs saying "just leave her out".  Wasn't there a poster released with her edited out, with the original artist having to come out and say he did include her? It did stink that she was sidelined in TRoS, especially when the film introduced new characters that weren't really necessary. 

 

Was Felicity really just introduced to no-homo Poe? I just realised she had little other purpose.

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Just as an aside, I think there is a little over estimation in just how much impact ‘the internet’ has had on Star Wars creative direction, despite what many would like to think. Maybe we assume fan reaction is more potent than it is to qualify our own varying time spent online or to think a global corporation gives two shits about individuals.

 

The Last Jedi made $1.3b worldwide. Speculatively, even if that audience saw it an average of twice, with average cinema tickets costing just under nine dollars (based on the US market, I’m fairly sure the global average will be lower), that would equate to 74 million unique viewers. I’d assume some saw it more than twice, but the majority only once. Even so, if you take a generous average of three views per person, that would be around 50 million people that watched the film.

 

Contrastingly, barely over 200,000 people registered a vote on rotten tomatoes, one of the more visible platforms cited in the fan backlash, and not all of those votes will have been negative. There are loudmouths on Twitter and petitions sure. I found a negative YouTube video with 8.4m views, which sounds high but is perhaps still only 17% of a total audience if that 8.4m is counted as unique views AND everyone who watched it also saw The Last Jedi. Which it almost certainly isn’t the case.

 

A lot of the creative decisions seen in Rise might appear to be appeasing a vocal minority, but I think they can similarly be explained by JJ Abrams’ ego, having seen much of his own plot lines dismissed and altered by Rian Johnson, some for the better, some not so much. A lot make sense purely from a writing angle even if the end result is chaotic; in Rise Abrams focuses mainly on the characters he created and wrote for The Force Awakens. Rose’s relegation is perhaps the most glaring discontinued role, but, whisper it, her character was poorly written in The Last Jedi, and the love story with Finn was already unrequited before the end of that film (he looks positively bewildered when she kisses him) That’s not to say Tran deserved any kind of backlash; she did the best she could with flimsy, inconsistent material.

 

The over-arching problems with this trilogy - and the Disney era - are largely due to no long-term structure being put in place, and a rush to release films. There have been five different films since 2015, which is a ludicrously hectic pace, clearly reflected in some of the decisions made along the way, and in the need for extensive reshoots and directorial changes.

 

We’re left with a mixed bag of a trilogy, and one good, one mixed spin-off. But thinking this is due to a fan backlash feels wide of the mark and over-empowering people with very little actual sway.
 

Disney rushed these films, and created an uphill battle for themselves with some of the decisions they alone took. Everyone involved is no doubt NDA-ed to the gills, so we’ll likely never get the full story behind the trilogy, but with a little more care and attention the mixed bag could have been rather more special, rather than the entertaining nonsense it turned out to be.

 

TL:DR - don’t think the internet had much impact, more that Disney rushed things and we got less than we would have with a few deep breaths by the studio heads behind the films.

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I didn’t like it. The decision made re: Rey’s past is terrible.

 

It felt at times like it was two different films stitched together.

 

And to waste that rebel fleet at the end by not giving us a great space battle? Unforgivable.

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14 minutes ago, glb said:

Just as an aside, I think there is a little over estimation in just how much impact ‘the internet’ has had on Star Wars creative direction, despite what many would like to think. Maybe we assume fan reaction is more potent than it is to qualify our own varying time spent online or to think a global corporation gives two shits about individuals.

 

The Last Jedi made $1.3b worldwide. Speculatively, even if that audience saw it an average of twice, with average cinema tickets costing just under nine dollars (based on the US market, I’m fairly sure the global average will be lower), that would equate to 74 million unique viewers. I’d assume some saw it more than twice, but the majority only once. Even so, if you take a generous average of three views per person, that would be around 50 million people that watched the film.

 

Contrastingly, barely over 200,000 people registered a vote on rotten tomatoes, one of the more visible platforms cited in the fan backlash, and not all of those votes will have been negative. There are loudmouths on Twitter and petitions sure. I found a negative YouTube video with 8.4m views, which sounds high but is perhaps still only 17% of a total audience if that 8.4m is counted as unique views AND everyone who watched it also saw The Last Jedi. Which it almost certainly isn’t the case.

 

A lot of the creative decisions seen in Rise might appear to be appeasing a vocal minority, but I think they can similarly be explained by JJ Abrams’ ego, having seen much of his own plot lines dismissed and altered by Rian Johnson, some for the better, some not so much. A lot make sense purely from a writing angle even if the end result is chaotic; in Rise Abrams focuses mainly on the characters he created and wrote for The Force Awakens. Rose’s relegation is perhaps the most glaring discontinued role, but, whisper it, her character was poorly written in The Last Jedi, and the love story with Finn was already unrequited before the end of that film (he looks positively bewildered when she kisses him) That’s not to say Tran deserved any kind of backlash; she did the best she could with flimsy, inconsistent material.

 

The over-arching problems with this trilogy - and the Disney era - are largely due to no long-term structure being put in place, and a rush to release films. There have been five different films since 2015, which is a ludicrously hectic pace, clearly reflected in some of the decisions made along the way, and in the need for extensive reshoots and directorial changes.

 

We’re left with a mixed bag of a trilogy, and one good, one mixed spin-off. But thinking this is due to a fan backlash feels wide of the mark and over-empowering people with very little actual sway.
 

Disney rushed these films, and created an uphill battle for themselves with some of the decisions they alone took. Everyone involved is no doubt NDA-ed to the gills, so we’ll likely never get the full story behind the trilogy, but with a little more care and attention the mixed bag could have been rather more special, rather than the entertaining nonsense it turned out to be.

 

TL:DR - don’t think the internet had much impact, more that Disney rushed things and we got less than we would have with a few deep breaths by the studio heads behind the films.

 

Nonsense. I mean, it wasn't just the internet - they'll have done focus groups, surveys and everything else - but 200,000 voices is a solid bit of statistical data no matter how you cut it. We predict elections on less than that.

 

TLJ made 700m less than TFA. There's no way Disney saw that as anything less than a failure. It only made a bit more than RO, and then categorically Han Solo bombed as well. 

 

Disney have shit the bed and done everything they can - including being clear this is The End - to rescue things and retain good will. Yes, their rushed schedule has affected the output, but they also seem to have run scared.

 

(Which is interesting given Avengers went the other way and stuck two fingers up at internet manbabies, based on the fact it'd make all the money anyway)

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2 hours ago, JLM said:

I’m more critical of it because I love it and really wanted to like this film. I am disappointed at being left cold by something that should be a guaranteed home run for me. The idea that you can’t feel let down by something you’re a fan of is pretty ridiculous to me. I’m glad people enjoyed it though, and I was sad that so many people hated TLJ, but I love a good ramble about Star Wars either way. 


You see I find that odd. I love my missus. I don’t focus on the fact she snores, that she’s untidy or that she’s careless with things.
 

I love my dog. I don’t focus on the fact she barks incessantly first thing on a morning when we’re getting ready to go out and the noise goes right through me. I don’t focus on the fact that I’ve got to take her out despite really not wanting to in the cold, wet and wind some days. 
 

I ignore all of those slight downsides because overall the positive things they both bring to my life outweigh the bad and doing so makes me happy. I suppose I could dwell on all the things that aren’t perfect but I’m really not sure what it would achieve other than a lonely life where I die alone. 

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I’m surprised how negative a reaction this is getting.

 

I enjoyed it a lot Thursday night despite being distracted for the first ten minutes trying to convince the people next to me that it wasn’t the time to transfer data between their phones and I think watching it in 4DX wasn’t the way to go.

 

Watched it again this morning in 2D and upgraded from really liked it to loved it.

 

Yeah - it’s McGuffin heavy and a bit unfocused at times, but I enjoyed the new characters all sticking together for their treasure hunt; I thought Daisy Ridley was awesome despite not being 100% sold on her in the past. The rest of the main cast all got some decent time; there was the right amount of fan service and the Rey/Ren battles were great.

 

I don’t think it had a real stand out scene, like the Throne Room in TLJ, but equally it didn’t have anything terrible like the Casino/CGI horse thing section.

 

I didn’t really go in with massive expectation. I enjoyed TFA, I enjoyed TLJ (although I think it’s a mix of great and ocassionly bad), but I went in feeling I wasn’t that excited to see the fate of Rey and Ren - but I quickly got sucked in on both viewings and really enjoyed it.

 

I do think the trilogy would have been better served by a single director, if nothing else because I’ve never been convinced that Johnson just ripped up JJ’s plans and that JJ has now reversed it all. They should have had a more coherent plan anyway, but one director might have dampened down this tribalism around the different movies??

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3 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:

One last thing. Big Lime of course used to post here but no longer does not. I feel his Twitter take absolute hits the nail on the head for me. He couldn’t have said it better. 
 

 


I’m not sure that blind devotion to an IP just because of iconography, regardless of small things like differences in craft and quality between iterations is really something to be crowing about. He probably didn’t mean it that way, but that's how it reads.

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3 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Holy shit, just saw the post two above that appears to be unironically comparing a massive designed by committee blockbuster to the love for a wife or a family pet and intimating that people who didn't like it as much as them, and dared to do things like apply critical thinking to a piece of media instead of just loving it unconditionally, are lonely and will 'die alone'.

 

Fuck a duck modern fandom is a bit scary sometimes.

 

Apologies if that was a parody post and I've just McBain'd myself.


I think you’ve read it wrong or misunderstood. I’m not comparing anything, I’m just making the point that you can either over look some stuff that pisses you off because overall it makes you happy or you can dwell on the bad things and be a miserable cunt. 
 

I think in reality there’s a lot of people who just like to have something to complain about. 

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2 hours ago, yakumo said:

To be fair JJ was in a kobayashi maru situation.

 

You could use the Holdo manuever to beat the Kobayashi maru.

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1 minute ago, bridger said:


I think you’ve read it wrong or misunderstood. I’m not comparing anything, I’m just making the point that you can either over look some stuff that pisses you off because overall it makes you happy or you can dwell on the bad things and be a miserable cunt. 
 

I think in reality there’s a lot of people who just like to have something to complain about. 

Wow, imagine living with this guy.:rolleyes:

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45 minutes ago, bridger said:


You see I find that odd. I love my missus. I don’t focus on the fact she snores, that she’s untidy or that she’s careless with things.
 

I love my dog. I don’t focus on the fact she barks incessantly first thing on a morning when we’re getting ready to go out and the noise goes right through me. I don’t focus on the fact that I’ve got to take her out despite really not wanting to in the cold, wet and wind some days. 
 

I ignore all of those slight downsides because overall the positive things they both bring to my life outweigh the bad and doing so makes me happy. I suppose I could dwell on all the things that aren’t perfect but I’m really not sure what it would achieve other than a lonely life where I die alone. 

 

It's a movie though, not your wife or your dog. 

If you enjoyed the movie fair enough, if you didn't like it that's also fair enough. 

 

It's totally fine to dislike bits of a movie- especially in a discussion thread!

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And now we're up to people who don't like a film as much as you being 'miserable cunt(s)' and only doing so because they're actively looking to complain about anything rather than actually having any critical faculties of their own? Whereas people who came to the conclusion they liked the film are all true 100% genuine reactions I guess?

 

I truly hope you've never, ever made a post criticising anything at all ever on here, or you'd look like a massive hypocrite.

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41 minutes ago, bridger said:


You see I find that odd. I love my missus. I don’t focus on the fact she snores, that she’s untidy or that she’s careless with things.
 

I love my dog. I don’t focus on the fact she barks incessantly 

 

but I’m really not sure what it would achieve other than a lonely life where I die alone. 

 

 

319.jpg

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Just home from seeing this. Need sometime to process but I feel a bit "meh".

 

It looked lovely but just felt really safe.

 

I could tell I wasn't really into it as I kept forgetting in my seat.

 

I really liked TFA and TLJ as well as a lot of JJs other work so was looking forward to this but some of the choices just felt underwhelming.

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I thought it was funny when 

Spoiler

The Emporer offers Rey ultimate power. Essentially, "look at my surroundings - all this can be yours..." 

 

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1 minute ago, Mawdlin said:

I thought it was funny when 

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The Emporer offers Rey ultimate power. Essentially, "look at my surroundings - all this can be yours..." 

 

Spoiler

KIll me and all this can be yours.

 

Kills him gets nothing.

 

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I Iie in my lonely deathbed. My only company the beeping of the nearby machines. Even the nurses barely bother to check on me anymore. Occasionally I hear the joyful sound of friends and relatives visiting loved ones. Never me though. No, never me. I reminisce on how I ended up in this predicament. If only I'd just said I liked Disney blockbuster #7373637256537 and then bought a limited edition silver First Order Jet Trooper Funko Pop, things could have been so different.

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2 minutes ago, Harsin said:

I Iie in my lonely deathbed. My only company the beeping of the nearby machines. Even the nurses barely bother to check on me anymore. Occasionally I hear the joyful sound of friends and relatives visiting loved ones. Never me though. No, never me. I reminisce on how I ended up in this predicament. If only I'd just said I liked Disney blockbuster #7373637256537 and then bought a limited edition silver First Order Jet Trooper Funko Pop, things could have been so different.

 

more machine now than man, bitter and twisted and lonely

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On 20/12/2019 at 10:02, Treble said:

It's very strange to see a JJ film so badly edited, by the way He's a perfectionist on the level of his hero Spielberg. Having so little time and so many script revisions that had to be polished into a cohesive whole - and then still ending up messy - must be killing him!

 

After a night's sleep, I'm glad to say I want to watch this again, and soon. I feel the central story of Rey & Ren is fantastic, and the acting chops of Daisy and Adam strong enough to drag you through the weaker parts of the story. 

 

The Palpatine stuff is really going to divide audiences. I loved it; my wife disliked it. She called him:

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Davros-Sauron, and felt that they were slipping into the kind of 'no-one really dies' kind of storytelling that leaves you irritated.

 

I think from a film making perspective, JJ pivoted the story around Palps pretty well, and you'll get more from it if:

 

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You are a follower of the wider universe and a fan of the EU. The idea of teleporting/pathways through other dimensions/Sith religion etc. is far more alive in the like of Rebels, Dark Empire etc. Not saying that stuff is always good, not by any means, but the Skywalker saga has been fairly narrow - ontologically speaking - and TROS rips that wide open.

 

 

Having watched TFA, TROS, MI3, Star Trek 09, Into Darkness and all of Alias I can categorically and professionally JJ Abrams is NOT a perfectionist.

 

I would go further and suggest that he should never again make a film or TV that involves Space. Or technology. Or anything that involves geo-politics. Or economics. Or armed forces. Or anything where distance might be a plot point. Or anything that involves the passage of time longer than a few months.

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Yes, because everyone wants realism in movies with laser swords, floating rocks, and little green men. :coffee:

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1 hour ago, Pelekophoros said:

TLJ made 700m less than TFA. There's no way Disney saw that as anything less than a failure. It only made a bit more than RO, and then categorically Han Solo bombed as well. 


https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/highest-grossing-movies-all-time/

 

Quote

Rian Johnson’s The Last Jedi took the standard dip that had afflicted other middle films in the franchise. The Empire Strikes Back made 31.9% less than A New Hope, Attack of the Clones made 34.6% less than The Phantom Menace, and The Last Jedi fell 33.8% off The Force Awakens.

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36 minutes ago, macosx said:
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KIll me and all this can be yours.

 

Kills him gets nothing.

 


 



She reflects back his force lightning meaning he effectively kills himself. 

The Windu manoeuvre. 

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