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Jug McKenzie

Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (December 2019)

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I do t think being a pre-existing fan matters that much as a barometer of how quality will turn out personally. Nicholas Meyer had never seen an episode of Star Trek prior to making Wrath of Khan. Conversely Chris Chibnall was a massive pre-existing fan of Doctor Who.

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18 minutes ago, Harsin said:

I do t think being a pre-existing fan matters that much as a barometer of how quality will turn out personally. Nicholas Meyer had never seen an episode of Star Trek prior to making Wrath of Khan. Conversely Chris Chibnall was a massive pre-existing fan of Doctor Who.


Yeah there’s plenty of examples of it being detrimental. Mark Steven Johnson was a massive Daredevil fan, didn’t do the film any favours.
 

I’m a huge skeptic of the idea that fans know best in general, I think it kills creativity and leads to naval-gazing fan service with an impenetrable devotion to canon a lot of the time. I reckon it’s much easier for a professional with no emotional attachment to get to the heart of a story and figure out what actually works.

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1 hour ago, jcafarley said:

The flip side of that is Star Trek Nemesis.

 

It had both extremes- the writer was a big fan, the director clearly did not like Star Trek.

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Frigging hell, totally missed this. When the force ghosts talk to Rey, put the subtitles on. It lists (at least, on Disney+) all the Jedi that talk to her - I hadn’t even twigged that Ahsoka Tano and Kanan Jarrus are two of them.

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On 09/05/2020 at 11:10, Dirty Harry Potter said:

Does anyone really imagine Kennedy was a Star Wars fan before heading Lucasfilm? She has been asked the question directly and replied something along the lines of “I respect its place in cinema history”. 

 

Now do you think Favreau and Filoni were fans? And then lets look at the quality of the output of both. 

 

Like it or not - she has run cinema’s biggest sure thing into the ground. What Star Wars needed was a big Kev from Marvel figure running it, not someone who demonstrates only an academic interest in the ins and outs of space wizards. 

 

Bob Iger and the board have also played a major part in the franchise’s woes. JJ must have been under enormous pressure to create something that would please fans, both times. The last film especially feels like a film directed by committee (which is why It pleases mostly noone except casual audiences).

 

 

Kennedy is over all of the output you're praising and criticising.

You're assigning the stuff you don't like to her and Iger 'pressurising' JJ and the stuff you like to have been made despite her. With no evidence.

 

Also, JJ 'pressurised' to make film exactly like his others.

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I doubt directing the last SW film was like the pressure to direct his others (TFA included). The goodwill was burned and the pressure on him (from Disney) to get the fan base back onside must have been immense. And TROS feels like a film that has been edited by committee - hence it making zero coherent sense. 

 

Kennedy has taken a public back seat since Solo, and thats no co-incidence. Corporations at that level are run like game of thrones (as anyone that has ever worked in one will attest) and her power and influence have clearly run their course. But thats not really my point - Do you really imagine Kennedy was into Star Wars before Lucas offered her the job? She was employed as a corporate gatekeeper - not someone that was invested in the franchise. And Yes that does really matter in terms of the success of the creative output for something like SW imo. 

 

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It's basically got the same things wrong with it as STiD, and that was an unforced error. The only new mistake is the inclusion of a bunch of retconning to get back to where The Force Awakens left off. So I'm not convinced that anything Lucasfilm were asking for has anything to do with it.

 

The simpler explanation is that this is simply what happens when J J Abrams has to direct a sequel to his own film. Given his attitude to story structure I wouldn't be surprised if we see him turn in another increasingly unwieldy tangle of divergent plot threads if he's given the chance to do a two-parter again in the future.

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I’m saying that whatever input Disney may have had, what’s wrong with the movie is basically what likely would’ve been wrong with a J J Abrams Star Wars sequel regardless. I find the notion of an Abrams masterpiece ruined by Disney interference very far fetched.

 

(People want to try to reverse engineer these things in a way that doesn’t speak to how movies are actually made.)

 

And it’s not like I’m exonerating the producers here, they’re the ones who went running to the master of the third act damp squib to cap off their trilogy. The buck still stops with them.

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It does. And whilst I am far from JJ's biggest fan, this was his worst film to date (imo) and seems very compromised. When you spend that much money, there will be many more opinions in the room - than just the directors. Especially on a film that many see the firm's investment riding on.

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Turns out an earlier draft had Kylo find Palps on a now-desolate, ash-covered Coruscant, with streets overrun by giant wolves. Palpy was hiding out in the deepest levels of the former Jedi temple.

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12 hours ago, JohnC said:

Turns out an earlier draft had Kylo find Palps on a now-desolate, ash-covered Coruscant, with streets overrun by giant wolves. Palpy was hiding out in the deepest levels of the former Jedi temple.

 

Oh my God, they killed Coruscant!

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Probably had to remove that because half the audience would still think they blew it up in TFA.

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Re watched the prequels before watching the Disney. Now I hated the prequels but re watching Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith I really enjoyed it this time round. The dialogue is so bad its almost comical how it got on screen and the CG looks dated, wishing it was more practical. But the point is it sort has coloured my opinion on the Rise of the Skywalker, while at the time I found it flawed I now find it pretty terrible in some aspects. Power levels are all over the place, Finn is annoying and the biggest simp on the planet, Palaptine is a bad James Bond villain and still has problems with lightning hands. Stupid plot devices all over the place, and it sucks because I really like Rey too.

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I watched TPM and AotC yesterday, and for all their sins, I take some solace in it’s what George wanted, his vision, on celluloid (as it were), for better or worse.

 

of course, rogue one is a good Star Wars film, and not one of George’s, so maybe that comparison doesn’t holdo water...

 

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On 18/05/2020 at 11:48, Alex W. said:

The simpler explanation is that this is simply what happens when J J Abrams has to direct a sequel to his own film.

 

No that's STID. This was a sequel to someone else's film. Neither of them went well.

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They undid everything that happened in TLJ that they could possibly undo, even if it meant wasting precious screen time. This was a sequel to his movie, even if it had one in between chronologically.

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A video praising one technical aspect of Episode IX:

 

 

If you only want to watch one bit, skip to 5:20 when it shows almost exactly the same shot being used in three Abrams films. They're fine shots, but it's funny seeing them one after the other like that!

 

 

Here's the Brad Bird video he mentions. At 2:48 ("Bad robot!") he talks about a shot from Abrams' STID that is an example of this sort of nicely-blocked camera movement offering no advantage for storytelling:

 

 

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He could still do one. I'd love to see a Brad Bird Star Wars film. The Iron Giant could have a cameo!

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On 02/06/2020 at 14:32, SeanR said:

I watched TPM and AotC yesterday, and for all their sins, I take some solace in it’s what George wanted, his vision, on celluloid (as it were), for better or worse.

 

of course, rogue one is a good Star Wars film, and not one of George’s, so maybe that comparison doesn’t holdo water...

 

 

Another thing is the prequels felt like we were sharing an universe with aliens and creatures, and the world building in terms of design was amazing. The sequels I didn't feel I was on another planet, it was more humans and sometimes an alien or creature here or there.

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On 04/06/2020 at 11:21, Dirty Harry Potter said:

+1!

 

I just wish Brad Bird had directed The Force Awakens (as he was originally rumoured to be before JJ happened to it). 

I dunno, as fantastic a director of animation as he is, both of his live-action features are forgettable wank. 

 

Tomorrowland especially. 

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15 hours ago, John Edward Gammell said:

I dunno, as fantastic a director of animation as he is, both of his live-action features are forgettable wank. 

 

Tomorrowland especially. 

Boooo. I always think Tomorrowland is unfairly maligned and was good counter programming to Fury Road, I mean that was literally the point of the story of Tomorrowland.

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12 hours ago, womblingfree said:

TFA was a pretty conservative and derivative soft-reboot of the OT. Decent pacing, mostly fun with the usual JJ trope of misunderstanding major franchise motifs for a cheap trick; death of Han and Starkiller base being the most obvious.

 

TLJ was a mostly coherent story which introduced some genuinely interesting new elements, mostly hit the mark aside from some ill judged CGI scenes due to an out of control budget and some misplaced humour, although some well judged humour too. Rey from nowhere was this trilogy’s best moment for me by far, a real revelation.

 

RoS was a barely coherent, poorly edited, poorly directed and badly scripted hot-mess. Despite that it was at least entertaining, mostly due to it moving along at such a pace there was barely a second to think about the fact it made no sense before you were off to the next action scene. New characters that went nowhere and had no arc, old characters unexplained until you looked in an illustrated Star Wars encyclopaedia for some background, daft as a brush set-pieces with no logic to them. Yet it was still kind of ok. It’s biggest crime is taking the ideas of TLJ and replacing them with derivative crap, leaving the trilogy’s, and I use the term lightly, legacy all the poorer for those that have to follow it.

Or to put it another way the only way is up from here.

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