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Plissken

Football Thread 2018/19

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You aren't part of the club. You are a paying customer. You may well have a group of associates who you enjoy spending time with at the club but I'd guess you'd enjoy their company outside of a football stadium if you could find something else to experience together.

 

I really don't understand the tribal football thing "real" fans enjoy.

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14 minutes ago, neoELITE said:

 

Not really as I, along with the 6-7,000 fans who attend regularly feel like we're part of a "club", a community and a group. I doubt the 10 million Man Utd fans around the World feel the same. Your lack of nuance..... 

Spot on.

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This has been brought up recently due to the Sterling race debate, but I was just reading an article in The Guardian regarding Pogba and the way the media supposedly refer to his pace, power and athleticism before his technical ability, calling it unconscious bias. Also the mention of black players being called 'beasts', which I did discuss with someone on the forum previously.  Being white-British it's tricky for me to fully understand this as I've never knowingly used these terms specifically refering to black players, I'd call a big strong player a beast whatever colour and is it not obvious to say Paul Pogba is a tall, strong, athletic player, much like Steven Gerrard for example.

Is this all getting too much? Are we to live in a world where you have to literally not use certain words (meant in a positive way) when referring to certain ethnicities? Perhaps someone on the forum can help me understand this a bit clearer, perhaps I'm missing the point totally!

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On 20 January 2019 at 12:59, dr_manhattan^ said:

This is the worst news

 

Yep - been using this all season for away games and the couple of home games I've missed although the way we played against Newcastle I'm not counting the days to watching us at the Emirates.

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50 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

This has been brought up recently due to the Sterling race debate, but I was just reading an article in The Guardian regarding Pogba and the way the media supposedly refer to his pace, power and athleticism before his technical ability, calling it unconscious bias. Also the mention of black players being called 'beasts', which I did discuss with someone on the forum previously.  Being white-British it's tricky for me to fully understand this as I've never knowingly used these terms specifically refering to black players, I'd call a big strong player a beast whatever colour and is it not obvious to say Paul Pogba is a tall, strong, athletic player, much like Steven Gerrard for example.

 

I don't know, but I do agree with the "beast" thing - especially as the white equivalent would be Andy Carroll or Alan Shearer who probably would be more likely to be called "an old-fashioned centre forward".  Which means that the use of "old-fashioned" suddenly becomes incredibly loaded.

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@Chewylegs Pogba is massive though,

when I saw him vs Watford this season or last it looked like he was playing a bunch of children. Although I think we did have Femenia on the pitch and Gerard D and Mariappa too.

 

I don't think that many people really use the term 'beast' either, at least professionals in the media don't. I certainly don't believe it has racial connotations, off the top of my head I thought of a few examples like Giroud, Ibrahimovic, Fellaini, Diego Costa etc who turn up several hits when you search for the term. (Struggling to think of any English ones though.)

 

Random thoughts:

 

1. That ham-fisted attempt to use an Everton fan site for an Andre Gomes 'media comparison' completely misses the point.

 

2. Dembele is actually the opposite, he's famed for his technical ability - I saw some insane dribbling stats in the lead up to his departure from Spurs last week. 'Beasts' generally don't have long term hip problems.

 

 

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I can only use Liverpool as my point of reference, but the groups I used to see regularly on match days all knew each other and acted like small communities within something bigger. Yes there are millions of fans all around the world, but those you see at the ground regularly all got on and would stop have a chat and a drink and look out for each other. 

 

A meeting point for many of us was in the HJC Shop across the way from the ground prior to the game. Go in have a chat with Gerry, buy a hat or scarf, get some stickers before heading to the Sandon, then onto the ground. Such was the sense of community that even when we stopped going to actual games (because of money and new kid) we'd still head down to see everyone. 

 

The sense of community you hear about with so called 'lower league teams' is still there at bigger clubs, you just don't hear about it all the time. We're the inner city council estate communities to your village community. 

 

I generally don't have an issue with the tribalistic nature of football, as it is something not unique to the sport, but what I do hate is how much hatred there is between sets of fans, with terms like 'scum' being bandied around way to easily and the outright vitriol that is bellowed out at rival fans. I hear that just as much at non-league games, as I did at Anfield, White Hart Lane, Old Trafford or any of the bigger grounds. In fact the worst I have heard was at Chelmsford City, where I just didn't feel all that comfortable throughout the game. 

 

Also this notion that you are special because you go to games... That is and always will be bullshit. Sometimes it just isn't possible for a multitude of reasons. I used to go to Anfield all the time, travelling up 2-3 times each moth from Essex, before eventually moving. But then things changed and I was priced out of being able to get tickets, meaning it became a full on event being able to get them and go to the ground. It is the same with lower league football, I never once had the money to go to Roots Hall and watch Southend and have only been to Chelmsford and Dagenham a handful of times. The last game I could afford was at Crawley las easter when they did a pay what you want scheme. That doesn't make me any less of a fan than someone who has the income to go to every home, and away domestic or euro fixture. I could be a loyal Grays Athletic supporter, but would still be unable to get to games. It just so happens I support a 'massive' club. 

 

It really doesn't matter what level your club is, or how much you love that your team, As long as you personally get something out of it, that is all that does matter. 

 

Besides, real fans are starting to go to watch Women's football, so they can support the rise of that part of the sport before it becomes too big ;) 

 

Seriously though, get down and support your local women's team and help them grow. My daughter loves watching Liverpool on TV, especially Bobby Firmino, but we are exposing her to the Women's game, so she has something to aspire to. As I don't think the world is ready for another Roxy* yet!

 

*Bonus points if you get the reference,

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A plane went missing between Nantes and Cardiff last night and the rumours are increasing that our new signing, Sala might have been on board!

 

Obviously a terrible situation whoever was on the plane.

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11 minutes ago, Ork1927 said:

A plane went missing between Nantes and Cardiff last night and the rumours are increasing that our new signing, Sala might have been on board!

 

Obviously a terrible situation whoever was on the plane.

 

Just saw this on Sky News.  Bloody awful.  Poor people.

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Just now, dr_manhattan^ said:

 

Just saw this on Sky News.  Bloody awful.  Poor people.

 

French press association seem to be confirming he was on board.

 

Worried my son will hear this at school now - sure he'll be okay, but last night we were playing FIFA together, won the Champions League with Sala who he had added to the City squad and was excited about seeing him play.

 

It's horrible anyway whoever is involved, but our record transfer signing may have just died  before he even started in training in a second tragic football aircraft disaster this season :(

 

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Jesus, that's terrible news. Doesn't sound good, but hope there is at least a small chance everyone is ok. 

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Appears he'd flown back to say goodbye to his teammates and was on his way back last night to start training with us this morning.

 

 

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Horrible news. As a Leicester fan can totally empathise with the impact this could have on club, fans, community and (obviously) friends and family. I know this thread was criticised earlier in the week, but horrible events like this show what a tight, caring community football can be and how tribal nonsense pales into insignificance. Hope for positive news. 

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13 hours ago, neoELITE said:

 

My League 1, 2 etc. thread is a nice thread and people are respectful

 

yeah, your thread doesn't have periodic wind-up visits from a guy with a chip on his shoulder about the clubs mainly talked about in there, that probably helps a bit with keeping it friendly. Repetetive bants!

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4 hours ago, Chewylegs said:

Is this all getting too much? Are we to live in a world where you have to literally not use certain words (meant in a positive way) when referring to certain ethnicities? Perhaps someone on the forum can help me understand this a bit clearer, perhaps I'm missing the point totally!

 

It's a cumulative issue rather than an individual thing. Use whatever words you like, but if you are aware that certain words are more likely to be used to describe certain ethnicities, then you can make a conscious decision to not contribute to that.

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3 hours ago, Yobo Ahoy said:

I don't think that many people really use the term 'beast' either, at least professionals in the media don't. I certainly don't believe it has racial connotations, off the top of my head I thought of a few examples like Giroud, Ibrahimovic, Fellaini, Diego Costa etc who turn up several hits when you search for the term. (Struggling to think of any English ones though.)

 

These are my thoughts too really, though I suppose you can only ever be anecdotal about it. 'Unit' and 'beast' have always seemed interchangeably used to me, irrespective of race. Joel Lynch was always 'a unit' while last season Laurent Depoitre was 'a beast' (this season he's been more 'overweight, undermotivated League 2 clogger' but c'est la vie.) There's maybe something in it, sometimes, but I always worry about debatable examples like that because to me they seem to give unnecessary ammunition to the fucking anti-'PC Brigade' brigade.

 

What HAS always bothered me though is the assumption that black players 'don't have a football brain' until they prove otherwise because that's always seemed loaded with the idea that they don't have a brain in general. That's been a thing for as long I can remember following football, so 25 years at least and probably much longer. With white players it's always the other way around, they're assumed to have one until they prove they have poor positioning or decision-making or whatever but even then it's a phrase you very rarely hear used to describe them.

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You don't really hear media professionals saying "beast" to describe a powerful (often black) footballer, that's more of a Twitter idiot kinda thing.  I do have to take issue with @Chewylegs assertion that these comments are "meant in a positive way" though. That really doesn't matter. It's the same line of thought people use to defend saying all black guys have big dicks. "What's wrong with having a big dick?? It's a compliment!!" Whereas if you dig a little deeper, it's not a compliment at all and is pretty offensive.

 

One thing you do see in the media is (presumably subconscious) focusing on physical characteristics of black players. You'll often see journalists discussing impending signings hyping up their pace and power even when the player in question isn't known for that at all if you actually know anything about them. It's cringey as hell.

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Sala confirmed on board missing plane with no sign of it so far. Looks incredibly unlikely than him and the pilot could possibly be alive.

 

I never got round to posting last night how the wheels were coming off at Cardiff with Warnock's Brexit rant, 2 bad performances against relegation rivals, Arter possibly falling out with Warnock/being sold by Bournemouth and our captain nearly dieing from a burst appendix and being out for months, but the ray of hope was our new record signing striker who should have been gearing up to debut and upset Arsenal

at the Emirates next Tuesday.

 

 

 

 

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Search finished until the morning although some floating objects were spotted, but couldn't be identified.

 

Even if they somehow miracously managed to land on some tiny uninhabited island unharmed last night it won't matter by tomorrow morning.

 

Best hope now is they manage to find the crash site early tomorrow so the families can know for sure.

 

 

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7 hours ago, milko said:

 

yeah, your thread doesn't have periodic wind-up visits from a guy with a chip on his shoulder about the clubs mainly talked about in there, that probably helps a bit with keeping it friendly. Repetetive bants!

 

Plissken's ok really. That's harsh.

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Forgive me for sounding insensitive, but what happens with all the money tied up in this Sala deal if he has died?  I'd guess everyone is insured up to the eyeballs on this one, Nantes still get their fee, Cardiff claim it back and Sala's next of kin would receive a proportion of his salary under some kind of death in service clause?  I'm not trying to be ghoulish or anything, I'm just genuinely curious. Had Cardiff even registered him as a player yet?

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It's sad news but that had also crossed my mind. 

 

In lighter news I see Barcelona have signed Kevin-Prince Boateng which I don't think anyone was expecting. I reckon  they got confused and were meant to sign Jerome. Must be the same bloke that signed Aleix Vidal by mistake when the club wanted Arturo. 

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I don't understand why someone would fly over that area of sea in that weather in a light aircraft. It seems mad in hindsight. The weather last night in the south west was terrible. The wind and rain woke me up twice so I imagine the Bay of Biscay and The Channel were bad too. Terribly sad though.

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I think we'd officially signed him so I assume there is insurance.

 

The important thing would be his family being looked after. In the insane land of transfer fees £15 mil is nothing to the clubs in the grand scheme of things.

 

Dunno about the flights - it looks like the club gave him permission to fly back to say goodbye to teammates and supplied the plane. 

 

Still very shocked by it on top of the sadness as most Cardiff fans seem to be - very weird feeling for a player that never kicked a ball for us, but will become this tragic what if figure.

 

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2 hours ago, Ork1927 said:

I think we'd officially signed him so I assume there is insurance.

 

 

 

It seems to me very unlikely any insurers will cover it - I don't know if football player insurance is different but normal life insurance policies typically exclude deaths caused flying on non-commercial or licenced chartered flights. 

 

This would appear to have been just some guy's plane. What Cardiff were thinking putting him on such a thing is beyond me. 

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17 hours ago, The Fox said:

I do have to take issue with @Chewylegs assertion that these comments are "meant in a positive way" though. That really doesn't matter. It's the same line of thought people use to defend saying all black guys have big dicks. "What's wrong with having a big dick?? It's a compliment!!" Whereas if you dig a little deeper, it's not a compliment at all and is pretty offensive.

It's not really the same line of thought though is it? Big dick jokes are a stereotype and a nonsense, where as surely describing someones look, is a bit different. I'd say that's a terrible comparison Fox.

 

How about this for example. You're asked to write up a piece on say Patrick Viera who has literally just ran the show in midfield and bossed it. He's used his physical presence to win everything. Are we honestly having to sit there and say that we must remove words that would be obvious to use because in the past some people have used them in an offensive way? Are you saying Graeme Sounds and Jamie Redknapp in the instances in the report are knowingly being offensive? I'm just thinking surely for someone like Pogba this is appropriate words where as if you used it for say Deli Alli then you could say it is out of context?? I really don't know.

 

How about Adebayo Akinfenwa, who actually runs a clothing line called Beast Mode On, do you think he is offended by reports using terms such as strong, physical or even beast in this instance?

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I read a book by Akala recently called Natives and he addresses the attitudes towards black men in sport and absolutely emphasises the point that black men do tend to be assessed by their biology (particularly in sports like sprinting and boxing) and physicality and genetics. I can see that terms like "beast" are very much linked to biology and physicality. 

 

Akala - Natives

 

How often, when a white heavyweight emerges is he referred to as The Great White Hope? Hope against what? Other than Peter Crouch, I can't think of a white player who is known mainly for his physical presence.

 

 

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