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Xbox Series X - out November

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2 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Microsoft’s big gamble is that by the time developers are spun up enough to want to do Xbox Series and PS5 exclusives, the previous gen machines will be dead anyway. And looking at the big cross-generation overlap for, what, the first 18 months of the PS4 and Xbox One, they might not be wrong.

 

Surely they have internal studios deep in production on Series X/S exclusives slated for sometime after 2021 already?

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1 minute ago, Pob said:

 

Surely they have internal studios deep in production on Series X/S exclusives slated for sometime after 2021 already?


Right, and based on the release dates of some of Sony’s big first party games they’re not going to be far behind the competition.

 

It’s a bold and unconventional strategy but I wouldn’t bet against it.

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49 minutes ago, Dudley said:

It has to have the same CPU, and if a game starts using the GPU for physics calculations you've just limited that ability even on an X if you require it to run on something less powerful.

 

Depends. You suddenly get to use a lot of APUs from the Series X run which you'd otherwise have to throw away - because you only need a quarter of the CUs to be functioning, not all but two of them. That's a huge cost saving overall.

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I hadn’t even thought about binning. If they only need two thirds of the GPU to work that’s a tonne of chips.

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It's a much bigger cost saving^ than "remove the disk drive", but I imagine they might do that too.

 

^ And it's one that they could choose to amortise over the whole set of consoles.

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16 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I hadn’t even thought about binning. If they only need two thirds of the GPU to work that’s a tonne of chips.

 

XSX yields will only improve over time.  Remember that they do have redundant CU's built into the XSX SOC as well to increase yields.  Unless they expect to sell substantially less S's than X's, then it makes more sense to have a dedicated S chip. 

 

The binned XSX chips will probably end up in Azure.

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1 hour ago, Dudley said:

It has to have the same CPU, and if a game starts using the GPU for physics calculations you've just limited that ability even on an X if you require it to run on something less powerful.

 

Thats very unlikely to happen, as they have actual cpus! Physics was offset to the gpu, as cpus in the bone and ps4 were utterly pathetic.

 

edit: i started writing this before everybody else pointed out binning too :)

 

The XsS, if it exists, will most likely also remove the UHD drive, be a cube shape (xbox game cube anyboduy?). The graphics sliders and res will simply slide down a bit, the core game will be the same, as the game logic will be run from the cpu, as it should be.

 

They will also be able to make it cheaper as they can use gpu silicon that didnt bin well enough for the higher end one, meaning they can get a better return. I would guess they would massivly undercut the PS5 in price here, while the XsX will be the same price.

 

Would probably be a good gamepass machine for a kids room.

 

 

 

Oh, and the people going on about native 4k, just stop, its not needed, its a massive waste of resources. What is needed, is a dlss equivalent, because you literally cannot tell by looking which a dlss quality setting game and 4k native are, its that good, and gives massive performance increases. While the keep talking about vrs, that, doesnt offer much. Have a look -

 

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39 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

I hadn’t even thought about binning. If they only need two thirds of the GPU to work that’s a tonne of chips.

 

Is it? I thought AMD's 7mm process was pretty robust, there's chip yield figures of 70-80% floating around. Given the cheaper console is likely to significantly outsell the more expensive one I'm not sure the economics of that make much sense. 

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6 minutes ago, petrolgirls said:

 

Is it? I thought AMD's 7mm process was pretty robust, there's chip yield figures of 70-80% floating around. Given the cheaper console will significantly outsell the more expensive one I'm not sure the economics of that make much sense. 

Ryzen chiplets are much smaller than a big piece of GPU silicon though. 

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I'm being facetious, but doesn't having a Series S that is the same as a Series X in all but resolution sort of undermine the new "Optimized for Series X" badging of games?

 

Don't get me wrong, I think getting het up about the names is largely nonsense and just a means to poke fun. But I can see it being a bit weird for non-hardcore Joe Bloggs consumer perhaps buying themselves/a child a brand new 'next gen' Series S console and then seeing that all the games are optimized for something else. 

 

I'm not disputing the product range (I actually think scaling performance against various price points is a solid way to try and increase their install base) but the messaging isn't great. Strange because so much else (like Smart Delivery) is working well for them.

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16 minutes ago, layten said:

Ryzen chiplets are much smaller than a big piece of GPU silicon though. 

 

Sure, even then does it seem likely that the proportion of binned chips good enough to support a Series S, but not an X will be in anything like the right proportion? Seems unlikely to me given the S will presumably require the CPU part of the SoC to be exactly as functional as the X.

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1 minute ago, petrolgirls said:

Sure, even then does it seem likely that the proportion of binned chips good enough to support a Series S, but not an X will be in anything like the right proportion? Seems unlikely to me given the S will presumably require the CPU part of the SoC to be exactly as functional as the X.

 

Probably, but then you can introduce an S version of the chip later.

Whatever else, it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

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M Machine Learning also contributes to the image quality freeing up resources previously held up by 4K textures. At leat that's my layman's understanding. 

 

Basically the next gen xboxes are built for efficiency. Freeing up dev time and giving the user the best image quality framerates etc...

 

BEAST.

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I guess I’m imagining one big production operation that’s shared between Series X and Series S. Same CPU; different numbers of the same RAM chips; and GPU that go in to only the Series S if they’re lower spec, or either console if they’re higher spec.

 

If that means putting Series X-grade GPUs in Series S consoles and marking some cores as unavailable, that’s hardly without precedent.

 

Or just have a separate Series S operation, probably. They would still make a big efficiency saving on R&D.

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1 minute ago, footle said:

Probably, but then you can introduce an S version of the chip later.

 

The series S is likely to sell more from the off. A change of chip with different thermal profiles and so forth doesn't strike me as an easy swap. All told it seems like a pretty convoluted approach, makes more sense to me that the S just has a bespoke chipset.

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30 minutes ago, FiveFootNinja said:

I'm not disputing the product range (I actually think scaling performance against various price points is a solid way to try and increase their install base) but the messaging isn't great. Strange because so much else (like Smart Delivery) is working well for them.

 

It's all rumour though at the moment, there is no messaging at all. If (when) the thing is actually announced would probably be a better time to comment on the messaging.

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2 hours ago, JPL said:

It’s really very simple. Both the Series S and X will play the same games. The Series S at 1080 and the X at 4K. The first wave or two of games will also run on the current Xbox.

 

If the rumours are true, of course.

 

Yes, which is why I'm saying it's not much of a saving because it'll still need virtually all the power of the X to guarantee that, or you're seriously limiting what people can do on the X.

 

1 hour ago, 5R7 said:

 

Thats very unlikely to happen, as they have actual cpus! Physics was offset to the gpu, as cpus in the bone and ps4 were utterly pathetic.

 

 

And NVIDIA PhysX exists on the PC because...?

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1 minute ago, Dudley said:

And NVIDIA PhysX exists on the PC because...?

 

GPU accelerated PhysX is barely used.

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The problem is it literally needs to be used once for the Series S to need to be quick enough to support it or for MS to accept the game won't run on it.

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The huge power disparity between the first generation Xbox One and the Xbox One X didn’t stop games using PhysX across both.

 

Actually that’s not a bad comparison if I do say so, it’s a smaller same power difference between those and the mooted Series consoles.

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18 minutes ago, Dudley said:

The problem is it literally needs to be used once for the Series S to need to be quick enough to support it or for MS to accept the game won't run on it.

 

Not if it's PhysX on CPU. My understanding is that's how nearly all current gen console games run PhysX.

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26 minutes ago, Dudley said:

The problem is it literally needs to be used once for the Series S to need to be quick enough to support it or for MS to accept the game won't run on it.


Yeah, so you don’t use it. The cpus they’re putting in these things are so much more powerful than the cpus they’ve previously had, or the cpus that were about when GPU phyx was a thing.

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44 minutes ago, Dudley said:

 

Yes, which is why I'm saying it's not much of a saving because it'll still need virtually all the power of the X to guarantee that, or you're seriously limiting what people can do on the X.

No idea why I quoted you, I’m sure I was replying to Dirty Harry Potter’s post, but seeing as I’m here my understanding would be that the S will be pretty much the same console, but with the GPU and RAM dialled down for 1080 output, rather than 4K. I’ve no idea how much of a saving that’d be, but I can’t see it being all that insignificant.

 

It seems like a really logical way to allow them to release a cut down console that will play anything that the Series X will.

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4 hours ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

What’s going to be the difference between the X and the series S? Is the X more powerful?

 

(And Jesus Microsoft you have made this convoluted and confusing. Lord knows how the general consumer will navigate your naming conventions.)

 

How? It really is simple. People who are tying themselves in knots over things must have massive problems when buying most tech or cars. 

 

Oh shit, I don't know if this £22,000 Ford Focus is the new one or the one from 2004! So confusing!!!!

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10 minutes ago, Mr Tony said:

 

How? It really is simple. People who are tying themselves in knots over things must have massive problems when buying most tech or cars. 

 

Oh shit, I don't know if this £22,000 Ford Focus is the new one or the one from 2004! So confusing!!!!

 

you're right, except this is more like two ford focus (focii?), from the same year, but one is an ST, and the other is an ST-Line.

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4 minutes ago, SeanR said:

 

you're right, except this is more like two ford focus (focii?), from the same year, but one is an ST, and the other is an ST-Line.

Which are also really easy to differentiate. I’ve honestly no idea how anyone with even a passing interest would get confused. I think it’s probably just a bit of silly console wars nonsense masquerading as concern.

 

Aha, so that’s what concern trolling is!

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8 minutes ago, SeanR said:

 

you're right, except this is more like two ford focus (focii?), from the same year, but one is an ST, and the other is an ST-Line.

 

Or iPad. Is that iPad or iPad pro this years or last years model? I have no idea! What about the Mac? Oh man they have 5 different configurations, and those configurations are changed every year, but they all have the same name! How will I ever know which one I am buying!

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2 minutes ago, Mr Tony said:

 

Or iPad. Is that iPad or iPad pro this years or last years model? I have no idea! What about the Mac? Oh man they have 5 different configurations, and those configurations are changed every year, but they all have the same name! How will I ever know which one I am buying!

 

the most expensive one is the best one?

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