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23 minutes ago, Hitcher said:

Are PC games crippled by the minimum specs?

 

There comes a point where you have to cut off outdated old hardware though. The Xbox One was underpowered at launch and is now positively decrepit. Yet that crappy Jaguar CPU will still be the basis of Microsoft's first party games for another year or two. 

 

Sure, Series X will run those games at higher resolutions and framerates and on ultra settings but at a fundamental level they're still games that had to be designed with that CPU and that pool of RAM in mind.

 

It's not that I expect the PS5 to have incredible exclusive software at launch necessarily but the fact remains that if you are currently a Xbox owner, buying a series X console at launch gives you access to precisely zero new first party games for 1-2 years whereas buying a PS5 at launch will mean you have access to both Sony and Microsoft's catalogue. It's just a bit of an odd move to not have at least one Series X exclusive imo, it's practically asking Xbox owners, especially One X owners, to get a PS5 to complement their One X for a couple of years.

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The question I have is whether a game developed exclusively for next gen can use the hardware to provide tangible gameplay differences over a game that has to scale to run on older hardware. Will developers of XSX games still include the sections that mask loading on the slower machines (such sections typically being used to deliver narrative) or will they find ways to avoid that on the much faster hardware without going to the extent of creating separate versions of their games? World streaming speeds will be limited by the mechanical disks in old machines, multiplayer games will have protracted waits in lobbies whilst the old hardware is loading in. 

 

I’m guessing that on fast PCs those things still occur because of needing to support lower specs. So we’ll be waiting for games that are exclusive to the new hardware to see the technology being used to do neat stuff beyond moar graphixs - unless developers are going to do more than just fine tune sliders and frame rate caps.

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1 hour ago, Majora said:

It's not that I expect the PS5 to have incredible exclusive software at launch necessarily but the fact remains that if you are currently a Xbox owner, buying a series X console at launch gives you access to precisely zero new first party games for 1-2 years whereas buying a PS5 at launch will mean you have access to both Sony and Microsoft's catalogue. It's just a bit of an odd move to not have at least one Series X exclusive imo, it's practically asking Xbox owners, especially One X owners, to get a PS5 to complement their One X for a couple of years.

 

You seem to be massively over stating this. How is this situation any different from PC gaming? Everything is on a constant sliding scale. You won't see the old systems taking advantage of the new ultra quick loading or raytracing, If you have a 4K TV You'll be able to play the new exclusives at native 4K/60 instead of 720/900/1080 30fps. And if the specs are true the new Xbox will be the best place to play third parties and indies, Mix that with Game Pass and it's one hell of a package.

 

The first three years of the PS3 and PS4 offered very little in terms of exclusives so the prospect of a PS5 at launch is about as uninteresting as it gets for me unless you like very obvious PS4 remasters and I don't.

 

Be interesting to see if MS Flight Sim runs at all on the older systems, I'd imagine it's something you'd need to play on the new system for the best core experience (non PC)

 

Desktop-Screenshot-2019.12.12-23.27.41.0

 

CockpitDR400_3.png

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Thinking about it, I'll probably have about £200 in Microsoft Reward points by the time the Series X releases. I was going to just put that towards the console, but if there's no new releases Day One, I may as well continue saving my points until there is a reason. 

 

I'll definitely pick one up, but if I can get it cheaper and there's no real reason to upgrade immediately, I'll wait. 

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1 hour ago, Revival said:

You seem to be massively over stating this. How is this situation any different from PC gaming? Everything is on a constant sliding scale. You won't see the old systems taking advantage of the new ultra quick loading or raytracing, If you have a 4K TV You'll be able to play the new exclusives at native 4K/60 instead of 720/900/1080 30fps. And if the specs are true the new Xbox will be the best place to play third parties and indies, Mix that with Game Pass and it's one hell of a package.

 

Game design is constrained by the older/slower hardware on PC. The game might boot faster or have prettier graphics on a higher spec machine, but it'll still have slow walking sections, and traversal or world streaming will be limited to a certain speed. Developing for a more advanced baseline means those constraints are lifted, but it seems that at launch XSX first party games will still have to design around the current hardware's limits.

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15 hours ago, mdn2 said:

True, but it may be something similar to the different versions of Forza Horizon 2 or Rise of the Tomb Raider. 

 

It makes sense from Microsoft's perspective. They want those Gamepass subscriptions so they'll want to keep those who haven't upgraded yet. 

 

Totall, I was all over FH1, then the next ( Current ) gen dropped, and a while later FH2 was out, I played the 360 version and then immediately drove round the corner, picked up FH2 from someone off Gumtree, then drove 55 miles to buy a second hand X1 and couldn't have been happier, the difference in the games was immince, only thing the same was the "story" and the title.

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25 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Game design is constrained by the older/slower hardware on PC. The game might boot faster or have prettier graphics on a higher spec machine, but it'll still have slow walking sections, and traversal or world streaming will be limited to a certain speed. Developing for a more advanced baseline means those constraints are lifted, but it seems that at launch XSX first party games will still have to design around the current hardware's limits.

 

What are we expecting from early next gen games? Bigger game worlds with more npcs or genuine game changers where everything is destructive with super realistic weather conditions and physics? Hopefully those things will come but rarely at launch, It's the kind of evolution we see when development tools mature, I don't understand the fascination with fresh launch games which are usually variants on early tech demos anyway.

 

The only thing you're doing by cutting off the previous gen from day one is removing your ability to sell those games to an installed userbase. Starting again from zero feels like such a dated concept now when it's popular to 'not leave anyone behind' and more important than ever to keep everyone in the same ecosystem.

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57 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Game design is constrained by the older/slower hardware on PC. The game might boot faster or have prettier graphics on a higher spec machine, but it'll still have slow walking sections, and traversal or world streaming will be limited to a certain speed. Developing for a more advanced baseline means those constraints are lifted, but it seems that at launch XSX first party games will still have to design around the current hardware's limits.

 

The derided PC exclusive that may or not ever release as a finished product, Star Citizen is an interesting realworld example of a game with a very high baseline target, it is practically unplayable on a HDD due to the constant pauses for instance as it is designed around SSD asset streaming speeds.

 

 

 

At least Microsoft have been consistent with their messaging on this, as this was their plan from the start.

 

 

 

 

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I'm sorta hoping that whatever RPG Playground are working on isn't included in this cross generation strategy. The idea of a next generation Fable which builds on the idea of a reactive world mirroring your choices and with something like the nemesis system running in the background is very exciting to me. 

 

 

I liked Crackdown 3 more than most people seemed to but freeing rebels and attacking the corporations strongholds never felt like it was more than ticking items off a checklist. Hopefully in the next gen we'll see stuff like that have an effect on the gameworld so something like a Crackdown 4 ( I know it won't happen) would be more replayable as the world would feel different depending on what strategy you use. 

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35 minutes ago, bear said:

I'm sorta hoping that whatever RPG Playground are working on isn't included in this cross generation strategy. The idea of a next generation Fable which builds on the idea of a reactive world mirroring your choices and with something like the nemesis system running in the background is very exciting to me. 

 

 

I liked Crackdown 3 more than most people seemed to but freeing rebels and attacking the corporations strongholds never felt like it was more than ticking items off a checklist. Hopefully in the next gen we'll see stuff like that have an effect on the gameworld so something like a Crackdown 4 ( I know it won't happen) would be more replayable as the world would feel different depending on what strategy you use. 


We have this every generation. Remember when the original Xbox got a hard drive and how it’d change how games played? Apart from Blinx (and I wonder if that could have been done without a hard drive) no games took advantage of a hard drive in the ways people imagined.

 

Yes we got bigger worlds, shorter load times but all the pie in the sky ‘this tree will grow in real time’ or ‘every bullet hole will stay forever’ never really happened. Hardware really isn’t the limiting factor here, money, time, and does it work are. Like more advanced AI, it could be done now but it would probably make a game less fun to play. Games are all smoke and mirrors to make sure you enjoy yourself rather than doing things accurately.

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Man I remember all those generational leaps in gameplay we saw from ps3 to PS4 and Xbox 360 to Xbox one. 
 

pc’s have managed a sliding scale for years. So will consoles. I’d expect the Xbox One family of consoles to just become streaming boxes a year or so after series x launch. 
 

 

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Who is talking about generational leaps in gameplay? I'm talking about the substantial jump in CPU power opening up some possibilities for a handful of specific games. 

 

The PS3 and 360 versions of Shadow of Mordor were lesser games because they couldn't handle the nemesis system as well. I just don't want something like that replicated in a potentially systems heavy game like Fable. 

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3 hours ago, bear said:

Who is talking about generational leaps in gameplay? I'm talking about the substantial jump in CPU power opening up some possibilities for a handful of specific games. 

 

The PS3 and 360 versions of Shadow of Mordor were lesser games because they couldn't handle the nemesis system as well. I just don't want something like that replicated in a potentially systems heavy game like Fable. 

 

The X360 version of Forza Horizon 2 wasn't really the same game, but less prettier either. They basically built two separate games sharing the same name branding for that one.

 

Call of Duty dropped last gen support for the single player for the final last gen entry as they couldn't 'scale' (which seems the magic buzzword du jour that means games work on toasters now ;) ) it down back to last gen. I'm sure a hypothetical last gen version of Red Dead Redemption 2 would have been oh so playable too, it's just graphics that got better with the sequel after all and it was built on the same engine as GTA V.

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15 hours ago, gooner4life said:

All the so called insiders claim the cpu is definitely weaker in the cheaper model, but claim it’s targeting 1080p output and no supersampling. 

 

Do you have a link for these latest rumours? The last credible leak was from Jason Schreier who stated Microsoft are telling devs to target 1440p/60fps for Lockhart compared to 2160p/60fps for XSX which would indicate they can't be gimping it that much if it needs to push that many pixels in comparison to the XSX at the same performance level.

 

The dev comments mentioned in that article do make the current cross-gen games development arguments quite amusing.

 

Quote

Game developers will be expected to support both Anaconda and Lockhart,

Spoiler

which some are worried might hamper their ambitions for next-gen games in the coming years.

 

 

https://kotaku.com/sources-microsoft-is-still-planning-a-cheaper-disc-le-1840203823

 

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1 hour ago, mushashi said:

I'm sure a hypothetical last gen version of Red Dead Redemption 2 would have been oh so playable too

That would be a massive improvement over the unplayable current-gen version we ended up with! I want to play that game :D

 

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I really applaud what MS is doing here because from a consumer standpoint it’s brilliant. 
 

Let’s imagine that Halo Infinite is the next Breath of The Wild, up there with the best games of all time - not a paradigm shift in terms of cutting edge graphics or even new game play, but an absolute master class in every aspect of its design, taking the best bits of everything and assembling something much more than just the sum of its parts, something slowly cooked and majestic. 
 

And like Breath of The Wild, Halo Infinite is ostensibly a last generation title, Christ in Breath of The Wilds case more last, last gen. But that didn’t stop it being voted best game of all time pretty much everywhere. It’s not all about cutting edge hardware, it’s about the games. 
 

But then imagine if you could choose to play BOTW in 4K at 60fps with HDR, with longer draw distance and so enemies didn’t pop in at the last second, etc. 
 

And unlike BOTW if you own Halo Infinite already you don’t have to buy it again to enjoy all the improvements the new hardware has to offer. 
 

And that’s just one game, we know they (MS) are now heavily invested in bringing new first titles and we know they’ve been in development some time now, and what’s more with Game Pass you get them all day one on whatever system you already own. 

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On 11/01/2020 at 07:47, Hitcher said:

Are PC games crippled by the minimum specs?


CPU tech has been stagnant for a long time and the CPUs in consoles were outclassed when they launched, so the problem hasn’t been quite as obvious. 
 

i5s from like 2013 have been plugging away quite happily for years and are probably less restrictive than if you want your game to come to consoles at some point. 
 

But yes, at the end of the day, you are still limited by what your lowest common denominator is unless you want people effectively playing different games. 

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Such a good game. I started it again after the x patch for the 360 version and I must get around to finishing it. In many ways I prefer it to the third game. 

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

It’s not all about cutting edge hardware, it’s about the games.


Agreed. If I don’t care about a few more FPS or jiggapixels (and most don’t) I can play the same games on my X1, X1S or X1X, so there’s absolutely no reason to buy a new console. Great for consumers, but surely a terrible decision for their short-term XSX sales.

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1 hour ago, jonamok said:


Agreed. If I don’t care about a few more FPS or jiggapixels (and most don’t) I can play the same games on my X1, X1S or X1X, so there’s absolutely no reason to buy a new console. Great for consumers, but surely a terrible decision for their short-term XSX sales.

I’d imagine it’s all about getting those Game Pass subs and pushing that, hard. I mean you don’t need a console at all as you can play all their stuff on PC, and no doubt they’ll roll out Xcloud on everything they possibly can. 
 

Also don’t forget the other console, S Series, that will be much more affordable - that’s the one they’ll be pushing I reckon. 

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1 hour ago, jonamok said:


Agreed. If I don’t care about a few more FPS or jiggapixels (and most don’t) I can play the same games on my X1, X1S or X1X, so there’s absolutely no reason to buy a new console. Great for consumers, but surely a terrible decision for their short-term XSX sales.

 

There's always a large group of consumers who want the best way to play new games without fannying around with a big PC. If the machine is as good as the expected specs indicate then it'll sell on that alone just like at the start of the last generation.

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It's great that everyone's concerned about Microsoft's XSX launch sales figures but can we just take a moment to enjoy the fact that a lot more of us will be able to play Halo Infinite together at launch? 

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3 hours ago, Stanley said:

I really applaud what MS is doing here because from a consumer standpoint it’s brilliant. 
 

Let’s imagine that Halo Infinite is the next Breath of The Wild, up there with the best games of all time - not a paradigm shift in terms of cutting edge graphics or even new game play, but an absolute master class in every aspect of its design, taking the best bits of everything and assembling something much more than just the sum of its parts, something slowly cooked and majestic. 
 

And like Breath of The Wild, Halo Infinite is ostensibly a last generation title, Christ in Breath of The Wilds case more last, last gen. But that didn’t stop it being voted best game of all time pretty much everywhere. It’s not all about cutting edge hardware, it’s about the games. 
 

But then imagine if you could choose to play BOTW in 4K at 60fps with HDR, with longer draw distance and so enemies didn’t pop in at the last second, etc. 
 

And unlike BOTW if you own Halo Infinite already you don’t have to buy it again to enjoy all the improvements the new hardware has to offer. 
 

And that’s just one game, we know they (MS) are now heavily invested in bringing new first titles and we know they’ve been in development some time now, and what’s more with Game Pass you get them all day one on whatever system you already own. 

I can definitely appreciate this point, but it's surely a risky decision. Allowing Sony a massive head start has cost them dearly this generation, and telling people that they don't really need to buy your new console risks handing the momentum to Sony again. I have to imagine that most of the early sales for these machines are from people who own the previous generation, and MS are giving them less reason to bother. By the time there are games exclusive to the new generation they could have already lost out on millions of potential customers who've already bought Sony's machine.

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How many PS4 exclusive games will Sony have in the first 18 months? 

 

Neither Sony or third party developers are going to turn their backs on 100 million PS4 users. 

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