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MCU Phase 4 and beyond - Spidey to stay in the MCU! (warning: Endgame and Far From Home spoilers)


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6 minutes ago, Hexx said:

Phase 4 -6: Annihilation

 

:ph34r:

 

Well that was possibly the greatest cosmic saga marvel have ever published but there's a shit load of new characters to introduce if they are going to follow the story from the comics.

 

I would like them to do it though, if only it meant they would re-print the omnibus for the series, as that goes for crazy money on Ebay.

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The story so far, spoilered for length:

 

Spoiler

1. Iron Man: What needs to be said? RDJ kills it, the armour is excellent, the CG fares surprisingly well given its age. 9/10

 

2. The Incredible Hulk: The MCU's most awkward, least thought of entry. Quite clearly retrofitted late in production to reference Iron Man. Casting Edward Norton is probably the most regrettable mistake in the series. Quite a lot of character dead ends. Despite that, lovely production, and a fun story. 5/10

 

3. Iron Man 2: Widely reviled, undeservedly so. Given modern understanding of the interplay between MCU films, the additional characters don't come across as much like sequel advertising as like part of the overarching narrative. Sam Rockwell absolutely nails it, one of the best antagonists in the entire MCU. Solid sequel. 7/10

 

4. Thor: Definitely showing its age at this stage, both in its CG and in its general tone and storytelling. Anthony Hopkins is excellent, Tom Hiddleston is competant but yet to find his swagger. Everything to do with Natalie Portman is a total yawn-fest. Thor breaking in to the SHIELD compound is a definite highlight. 6/10

 

5. Captain America: The First Avenger: This does surprisingly well, and works well when taken into the context of the Cap trilogy. It's just as much about Bucky's journey as Cap's. Red Skull is an excellent villain. 6/10

 

6. Avengers Assemble: Total classic, here we see the MCU fun and exciting tone in full force for the first time. Special effects are largely excellent, and does a surprisingly good job of introducing all characters, regardless of what you've seen before. 9/10

 

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

8. Thor: The Dark World: Anthony Hopkins couldn't be more obviously phoning it in here, and I don't blame him. I fell asleep just before the big end set-piece. 4/10

 

9. Captain America: Winter Soldier: The Russo Brother's MCU debut, and what a drastic uptick in quality. One of the MCU's best. The action set-pieces are breathtaking, with a personal highlight being Fury's car chase. A hinted-at Cap/Natasha romantic sub-plot is regrettably trampled on by subsequent films. The tone and pacing of this film is absolutely spot-on. 9/10

 

10. Guardians of the Galaxy: I hadn't seen this in a good long while, and my god did it absolutely shine on this re-watch. With characterisation chops that are the envy of every other MCU director, James Gunn confidently putsforward a film that up until this point was rivalled only by Avengers Assemble in terms of fun and excitement. The MCU enters the cosmic realm in dazzling fashion. 9/10

 

11. Avengers: Age of Ultron: A film so busy with subplots and running at such a speed that it borders on incoherence. A lot of half-baked and poorly concluded threads. I remember coming out of the cinema having watched it for the first time, and not being sure that I understood what I'd seen. Repeat viewings can alleviate these issues though. Regardless, excellent action and contains my personal favourite Stan Lee cameo. 7/10

 

12. Ant-Man: If ever a character thrived on being the underdog, Ant-Man was it. It's obvious from the tone and marketing that Marvel was aware of that strength, and as such they serve up a surprisingly entertaining film here, so much so that expectations are pleasantly exceeded. Paul Rudd plays Scott Lang perfectly. The heist theme is excellently done. 8/10

 

13. Captain America: Civil War: The finest that the MCU has to offer, in my opinion. The plot provides a genuine moral quandary, and each character gets to say their piece. Black Panther is better in this than in his own film, Spider-Man is introduced perfectly ("QUEENS" - SQUEE!) and the action set-pieces are just mesmerising. Most people mention the airport centre-piece, but I think the real highlight is the end fight sequence between Cap, Iron Man and Bucky. There's real weight and consequence here. Thanos gets a lot of credit for it, but Zemo is truly the first villain to have won by the end of the film. 10/10

 

14. Doctor Strange: When I heard that Scott Derrickson was directing this, I was thrilled. Given this and Doctor Strange's previous experience with the occult and Lovecraftian antagonists, I thought Marvel was going to make a horror film. Instead we get a trippy magic-as-kung-fu origin story, steeped in 60's psychedelia, and some of the best and most brain-melting special effects ever seen in film. It feels strangely similar to the first Iron Man, a kind of throw-back to the origins of the MCU. Mads Mikkelson is absolutely wasted in this film (he would have been my dream casting for Doctor Doom), and Tilda Swinton steals every scene she's in. The ending's tone is pulled straight out of the comics, to my utter delight. This film opens Strange up to some wonderful future possibilities, which we've already begun to see. 7/10

 

21. Captain Marvel: This is a strange one. Brie Larson nails it as a competent and confident, but never outright arrogant, protagonist. She has a real sense of empathy and justice, the real makings of a true hero. There is a really inspiring message about personal strength and determination that lifts the story up. The film is, however, not without fault, most of which can be laid down directly at the directors' feet. There are some questions about character motivations and reactions, and some of the action is poorly laid out. Some of the lighting is god-awful. Ben Mendelsohn nails his role as arch-Skrull. The 90's nods were lovely, although I wish they'd taken more advantage of the Riot Grrl music that was at their disposal. Hopefully this Cap's trilogy has the same trajectory as the other Cap's, and the sequels deliver on this film's promise. 6/10

 

15. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: This film has some pretty big shoes to fill. The first film was a fantastic, confident and stylish departure from the other MCU fare, and it does seem like Gunn was feeling the pressure to replicate and improve upon all of those points. Unfortunately, while on paper this film is grander than the previous, it loses sight of some characterisation, the true linchpin of the original. The worst offence is Drax - a character who's motivations from the first film, the deep mourning for his family, and murderous need to gain vengeance, is replaced by a character who basically just laughs at everything.

There's a bit too much playing for laughs, and the music is a bit too shoehorned in, but there are some excellent messages about the importance of family, despite their imperfections. Kurt Russell is an inspired bit of casting for the role he plays. 7/10

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26 minutes ago, bloodywolf said:

It’s going to be Secret Wars, and we will get The Beyonder as the overarching big bad through several movies

 

I feel like most of the MCU stuff is based on more recent comics, I can't see them going for an eighties villain that they haven't used for thirty years. 

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The story so far, spoilered for length:

 

  

Spoiler

1. Iron Man: What needs to be said? RDJ kills it, the armour is excellent, the CG fares surprisingly well given its age. 9/10

 

2. The Incredible Hulk: The MCU's most awkward, least thought of entry. Quite clearly retrofitted late in production to reference Iron Man. Casting Edward Norton is probably the most regrettable mistake in the series. Quite a lot of character dead ends. Despite that, lovely production, and a fun story. 5/10

 

3. Iron Man 2: Widely reviled, undeservedly so. Given modern understanding of the interplay between MCU films, the additional characters don't come across as much like sequel advertising as like part of the overarching narrative. Sam Rockwell absolutely nails it, one of the best antagonists in the entire MCU. Solid sequel. 7/10

 

4. Thor: Definitely showing its age at this stage, both in its CG and in its general tone and storytelling. Anthony Hopkins is excellent, Tom Hiddleston is competant but yet to find his swagger. Everything to do with Natalie Portman is a total yawn-fest. Thor breaking in to the SHIELD compound is a definite highlight. 6/10

 

5. Captain America: The First Avenger: This does surprisingly well, and works well when taken into the context of the Cap trilogy. It's just as much about Bucky's journey as Cap's. Red Skull is an excellent villain. 6/10

 

6. Avengers Assemble: Total classic, here we see the MCU fun and exciting tone in full force for the first time. Special effects are largely excellent, and does a surprisingly good job of introducing all characters, regardless of what you've seen before. 9/10

 

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

8. Thor: The Dark World: Anthony Hopkins couldn't be more obviously phoning it in here, and I don't blame him. I fell asleep just before the big end set-piece. 4/10

 

9. Captain America: Winter Soldier: The Russo Brother's MCU debut, and what a drastic uptick in quality. One of the MCU's best. The action set-pieces are breathtaking, with a personal highlight being Fury's car chase. A hinted-at Cap/Natasha romantic sub-plot is regrettably trampled on by subsequent films. The tone and pacing of this film is absolutely spot-on. 9/10

 

10. Guardians of the Galaxy: I hadn't seen this in a good long while, and my god did it absolutely shine on this re-watch. With characterisation chops that are the envy of every other MCU director, James Gunn confidently putsforward a film that up until this point was rivalled only by Avengers Assemble in terms of fun and excitement. The MCU enters the cosmic realm in dazzling fashion. 9/10

 

11. Avengers: Age of Ultron: A film so busy with subplots and running at such a speed that it borders on incoherence. A lot of half-baked and poorly concluded threads. I remember coming out of the cinema having watched it for the first time, and not being sure that I understood what I'd seen. Repeat viewings can alleviate these issues though. Regardless, excellent action and contains my personal favourite Stan Lee cameo. 7/10

 

12. Ant-Man: If ever a character thrived on being the underdog, Ant-Man was it. It's obvious from the tone and marketing that Marvel was aware of that strength, and as such they serve up a surprisingly entertaining film here, so much so that expectations are pleasantly exceeded. Paul Rudd plays Scott Lang perfectly. The heist theme is excellently done. 8/10

 

13. Captain America: Civil War: The finest that the MCU has to offer, in my opinion. The plot provides a genuine moral quandary, and each character gets to say their piece. Black Panther is better in this than in his own film, Spider-Man is introduced perfectly ("QUEENS" - SQUEE!) and the action set-pieces are just mesmerising. Most people mention the airport centre-piece, but I think the real highlight is the end fight sequence between Cap, Iron Man and Bucky. There's real weight and consequence here. Thanos gets a lot of credit for it, but Zemo is truly the first villain to have won by the end of the film. 10/10

 

14. Doctor Strange: When I heard that Scott Derrickson was directing this, I was thrilled. Given this and Doctor Strange's previous experience with the occult and Lovecraftian antagonists, I thought Marvel was going to make a horror film. Instead we get a trippy magic-as-kung-fu origin story, steeped in 60's psychedelia, and some of the best and most brain-melting special effects ever seen in film. It feels strangely similar to the first Iron Man, a kind of throw-back to the origins of the MCU. Mads Mikkelson is absolutely wasted in this film (he would have been my dream casting for Doctor Doom), and Tilda Swinton steals every scene she's in. The ending's tone is pulled straight out of the comics, to my utter delight. This film opens Strange up to some wonderful future possibilities, which we've already begun to see. 7/10

 

15. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: This film has some pretty big shoes to fill. The first film was a fantastic, confident and stylish departure from the other MCU fare, and it does seem like Gunn was feeling the pressure to replicate and improve upon all of those points. Unfortunately, while on paper this film is grander than the previous, it loses sight of some characterisation, the true linchpin of the original. The worst offence is Drax - a character who's motivations from the first film, the deep mourning for his family, and murderous need to gain vengeance, is replaced by a character who basically just laughs at everything.

There's a bit too much playing for laughs, and the music is a bit too shoehorned in, but there are some excellent messages about the importance of family, despite their imperfections. Kurt Russell is an inspired bit of casting for the role he plays. 7/10

 

21. Captain Marvel: This is a strange one. Brie Larson nails it as a competent and confident, but never outright arrogant, protagonist. She has a real sense of empathy and justice, the real makings of a true hero. There is a really inspiring message about personal strength and determination that lifts the story up. The film is, however, not without fault, most of which can be laid down directly at the directors' feet. There are some questions about character motivations and reactions, and some of the action is poorly laid out. Some of the lighting is god-awful. Ben Mendelsohn nails his role as arch-Skrull. The 90's nods were lovely, although I wish they'd taken more advantage of the Riot Grrl music that was at their disposal. Hopefully this Cap's trilogy has the same trajectory as the other Cap's, and the sequels deliver on this film's promise. 6/10

 

 

16. Spider-Man: Homecoming: This film truly shows just what Marvel can do that other studios just can't. They truly understand the characters and storylines, and don't shy away from any of the details that might not translate so well to film. They've realised that getting Peter Parker right and getting Spider-Man right are two different jobs, and getting one right doesn't imply that that the other is a done deal.

We FINALLY have a Peter Parker who is actually a school-kid, and wisely manage to bypass the already battered-to-death origin story. Melding supporting characters from both the Peter Parker and Miles Morales runs works well in my opinion, and the film actually delivers a genuinely shocking twist for the first time in the MCU. Tom Holland nails it on all fronts, and Michael Keaton takes an easy paycheck, but does a fantastic job while doing it. The best Spider-Man film, despite the first 10 minutes delivering the two most maddening continuity errors in the whole MCU. 9/10

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@mansizerooster Is a rewatch of Black Panther on your list? I didn't think much of it at the cinema, despite (or maybe because of) the hype and I tried to watch it again last night with my boys, but I found it even worse on second viewing. There's a half decent idea in there with Killmonger and the leads are all really good, but it's so badly directed, with truly horrible cinematography and probably the worst effects work of the whole Marvel series, that I just couldn't enjoy it. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it though.

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@JPL sure thing, I'm running through the entire MCU in sequence, so I'll get there eventually.

 

@Glasgowchivas The first one is the '8 years later' title card, which sets the film 8 years after Avengers Assemble, which happened in 2012. Given that Homecoming happens a little bit after Civil War, which is set 8 years after Iron Man, there's a bit of a mess there. This mistake was trampled over by the Russo bros, when they had Stark mention that it had been 6 years since Avengers Assemble.

 

The second error is based on Spider-Man's reaction to Ant Man's giant mode. In Civil War he looks up at him and goes 'Holy shit!', in Homecoming he's looking into his phone and then says, 'oh, he's big now, gotta go'. Although that one's not as logistically problematic as that first one, it stuck out like a sore thumb to me and annoys me every time I see it.

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Like MSR, I'm watching all the movies. Though I'm doing them in chronological timeline order.

 

It's the list from Wikipedia but I've moved the Guardians films around a little to provide some space between the two:

 

1945 - Captain America: The First Avenger

2010 - Iron Man,

2011 - Iron Man 2, then Thor

2012 - Avengers, then Iron Man 3

2013 - Thor: The Dark World

2014 - Captain America: The Winter Soldier, then Guardians of the Galaxy

2015 - Avengers: Age of Ultron, then Ant-Man

2016 - Captain America: Civil War, then Guardian of the Galaxy Vol.2, then Doctor Strange

2017 - Spider-Man: Homecoming, then Black Panther, then Ant-Man and the Wasp, then Thor: Ragnarok, then Avengers: Infinity War.

 

Tonight I watched Age of Ultron. It's really underrated, I think it's brilliant, with the only really bum note being the Internet Nexus Hub in Oslo (lolwut!). I reckon there's a director's cut of this that does all the stories and characters better service, because as MSR says: Ultron is a dense movie. Its jam-packed with character and plot development for future movie payoffs. I love it.

 

The worst is still, and always will be, Iron Man fucking 3 - it's a proper fucking stinker. 

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Just now, McCoy said:

 

Get out. 

It's trash. The one singular thing it has going for it is Tony's PTSD. Everything else is dire and at odds with the rest of the movies. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Also, the music in it is fucking terrible. What happened to Tom Morello's awesome guitar riffs??? It's like after Avengers they had to have a "dramatic score" but it's awful. 

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17 minutes ago, Thor said:

It's trash. The one singular thing it has going for it is Tony's PTSD. Everything else is dire and at odds with the rest of the movies. It sticks out like a sore thumb. Also, the music in it is fucking terrible. What happened to Tom Morello's awesome guitar riffs??? It's like after Avengers they had to have a "dramatic score" but it's awful. 

 

Except that the end credits track Can You Dig It is probably the second-best piece of music in the whole series. (Second only to The Star-Spangled Man.)

 

See? Now you've gone and made me watch those end titles again! :wub:

https://youtu.be/OxL1p99EVCQ

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2 hours ago, Thor said:

Like MSR, I'm watching all the movies. Though I'm doing them in chronological timeline order.

 

It's the list from Wikipedia but I've moved the Guardians films around a little to provide some space between the two:

 

1945 - Captain America: The First Avenger

2010 - Iron Man,

2011 - Iron Man 2, then Thor

2012 - Avengers, then Iron Man 3

2013 - Thor: The Dark World

2014 - Captain America: The Winter Soldier, then Guardians of the Galaxy

2015 - Avengers: Age of Ultron, then Ant-Man

2016 - Captain America: Civil War, then Guardian of the Galaxy Vol.2, then Doctor Strange

2017 - Spider-Man: Homecoming, then Black Panther, then Ant-Man and the Wasp, then Thor: Ragnarok, then Avengers: Infinity War.

 

Tonight I watched Age of Ultron. It's really underrated, I think it's brilliant, with the only really bum note being the Internet Nexus Hub in Oslo (lolwut!). I reckon there's a director's cut of this that does all the stories and characters better service, because as MSR says: Ultron is a dense movie. Its jam-packed with character and plot development for future movie payoffs. I love it.

 

The worst is still, and always will be, Iron Man fucking 3 - it's a proper fucking stinker. 

 

Antman and the wasp ends at the same time as Infinity War though, whereas Raganok ends before the first frame...

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You completely ignored Hulk, though I know a lot of people dont consider it an MCU film due to the different actors. It is canon in the timeline, however.

 

I'm really hoping that Senator Ross is called out on his bullshit in Endgame by Banner, and he gets some comeuppance for instance.

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I'm with Thor on this one; Iron Man 3 is a horribly wasted opportunity, is missing the AC/DC from IM 1, 2 and Avengers Assemble and is at odds with the rest of the MCU. Iron Man 2 is the better sequel.

 

I urge those who disagree to re-watch the Iron Man trilogy, I'd be very surprised if your minds don't change.

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7 hours ago, Mr Ben said:

You completely ignored Hulk, though I know a lot of people dont consider it an MCU film due to the different actors. It is canon in the timeline, however.

 

I'm really hoping that Senator Ross is called out on his bullshit in Endgame by Banner, and he gets some comeuppance for instance.

But Norton's take on Banner is so different to Ruffalo's. It's too jarring. Avengers is the best introduction to Hulk and Banner in the MCU.

 

As for IM3. The MCU ignores the events in it other than a little lip service in Civil War. And for good fucking reason. 

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9 hours ago, Mr Ben said:

 

I'm really hoping that Senator Ross is called out on his bullshit in Endgame by Banner, and he gets some comeuppance for instance.

 

I'm hoping he becomes Red Hulk for the next phase.

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If only they'd used the PTSD angle to ramp up Tony's drinking, and play out the Demon In A Bottle storyline. The real Mandarin being revealed as the dude from Iron Man 1, and Tony initially failing to rise to the challenge because of a drinking problem, would have been the perfect way to tie off the trilogy.

 

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12 minutes ago, deKay said:

 

I'm hoping he becomes Red Hulk for the next phase.

That's the thing. He has to "fall" before that can happen, so I hope Banner can put the kibosh on whatever he's trying to pull with the accords.

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6 hours ago, mansizerooster said:

I'm with Thor on this one; Iron Man 3 is a horribly wasted opportunity, is missing the AC/DC from IM 1, 2 and Avengers Assemble and is at odds with the rest of the MCU. Iron Man 2 is the better sequel.

 

I urge those who disagree to re-watch the Iron Man trilogy, I'd be very surprised if your minds don't change.

 

As someone who watched all the MCU films last year leading up to IW, I whole heartedly disagree. IM2 is a turd of a film that offers nothing in ways of progressing the character and the villain is utterly terrible with his expendable robot army. The whole film is a set up for Tony to deal with daddy issues and discover an element, that's it. The only cool bit is the suitcase suit, which has now been trumped anyway with newer tech.

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