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MCU Phase 4 and beyond - NO Endgame spoilers here pls

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Gerbik said:

On the other hand, I'd argue that X-Men would work far, far better as a big Budget (think GoT) tv series than as a movie.

 

I can see that for sure. Doing some as films, and different guys on the TV makes lots of sense. At least you're free to do things.

 

There are obviously things you could do as TV that wouldn't break the movies (the recent Hawkeye comic arc would be a great fit for a between-movies TV series, for example) these just have the stink of "which actors are available and cheap enough?"

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3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Not necessarily. I think some at least are confirmed to be taking place earlier. 

 

Jesus. Prequels are always a total shit-show.

 

1 hour ago, Sprite Machine said:

"How about... Ghost Mutt?"

 

11 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Youth Hostelling with Black Panther

 

Ah bollocks, next come the puns...

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It sort of feel like these shows are either going to have to be really short, or their existence constitute a set of Endgame spoilers. Is there that much of a window between the end of Civil War and Infinity War for Falcon and The Winter Soldier to be having buddy cop adventures? Similarly for WandaVision, when are these happening, given Vision is dead (and who cares, given Vision is dead?)

 

I'm not really a pointlessly negative person, but I detect a whiff of filler about these.

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I mean, who doesn't expect everyone to be brought back to life by the end of Endgame? It's far more likely that one of the non-snap victims will die in the next movie than we won't get back the current piles of ash. 

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The story so far, spoilered for length:

 

Spoiler

 1. Iron Man: What needs to be said? RDJ kills it, the armour is excellent, the CG fares surprisingly well given its age. 9/10

 

2. The Incredible Hulk: The MCU's most awkward, least thought of entry. Quite clearly retrofitted late in production to reference Iron Man. Casting Edward Norton is probably the most regrettable mistake in the series. Quite a lot of character dead ends. Despite that, lovely production, and a fun story. 5/10

 

3. Iron Man 2: Widely reviled, undeservedly so. Given modern understanding of the interplay between MCU films, the additional characters don't come across as much like sequel advertising as like part of the overarching narrative. Sam Rockwell absolutely nails it, one of the best antagonists in the entire MCU. Solid sequel. 7/10

 

4. Thor: Definitely showing its age at this stage, both in its CG and in its general tone and storytelling. Anthony Hopkins is excellent, Tom Hiddleston is competant but yet to find his swagger. Everything to do with Natalie Portman is a total yawn-fest. Thor breaking in to the SHIELD compound is a definite highlight. 6/10

 

5. Captain America: The First Avenger: This does surprisingly well, and works well when taken into the context of the Cap trilogy. It's just as much about Bucky's journey as Cap's. Red Skull is an excellent villain. 6/10

 

6. Avengers Assemble: Total classic, here we see the MCU fun and exciting tone in full force for the first time. Special effects are largely excellent, and does a surprisingly good job of introducing all characters, regardless of what you've seen before. 9/10

 

7. Iron Man 3: One of the worst MCU films in my book. It's story and motivations are completely at odds with the rest of the MCU storylines, Iron Man is all but absent in the film and is comically depowered, the Mandarin misdirect is horribly executed, and the ending makes no sense whatsoever. 4/10

 

8. Thor: The Dark World: Anthony Hopkins couldn't be more obviously phoning it in here, and I don't blame him. I fell asleep just before the big end set-piece. 4/10

 

9. Captain America: Winter Soldier: The Russo Brother's MCU debut, and what a drastic uptick in quality. One of the MCU's best. The action set-pieces are breathtaking, with a personal highlight being Fury's car chase. A hinted-at Cap/Natasha romantic sub-plot is regrettably trampled on by subsequent films. The tone and pacing of this film is absolutely spot-on. 9/10

 

10. Guardians of the Galaxy: I hadn't seen this in a good long while, and my god did it absolutely shine on this re-watch. With characterisation chops that are the envy of every other MCU director, James Gunn confidently putsforward a film that up until this point was rivalled only by Avengers Assemble in terms of fun and excitement. The MCU enters the cosmic realm in dazzling fashion. 9/10

 

11. Avengers: Age of Ultron: A film so busy with subplots and running at such a speed that it borders on incoherence. A lot of half-baked and poorly concluded threads. I remember coming out of the cinema having watched it for the first time, and not being sure that I understood what I'd seen. Repeat viewings can alleviate these issues though. Regardless, excellent action and contains my personal favourite Stan Lee cameo. 7/10

 

12. Ant-Man: If ever a character thrived on being the underdog, Ant-Man was it. It's obvious from the tone and marketing that Marvel was aware of that strength, and as such they serve up a surprisingly entertaining film here, so much so that expectations are pleasantly exceeded. Paul Rudd plays Scott Lang perfectly. The heist theme is excellently done. 8/10

 

13. Captain America: Civil War: The finest that the MCU has to offer, in my opinion. The plot provides a genuine moral quandary, and each character gets to say their piece. Black Panther is better in this than in his own film, Spider-Man is introduced perfectly ("QUEENS" - SQUEE!) and the action set-pieces are just mesmerising. Most people mention the airport centre-piece, but I think the real highlight is the end fight sequence between Cap, Iron Man and Bucky. There's real weight and consequence here. Thanos gets a lot of credit for it, but Zemo is truly the first villain to have won by the end of the film. 10/10

 

14. Doctor Strange: When I heard that Scott Derrickson was directing this, I was thrilled. Given this and Doctor Strange's previous experience with the occult and Lovecraftian antagonists, I thought Marvel was going to make a horror film. Instead we get a trippy magic-as-kung-fu origin story, steeped in 60's psychedelia, and some of the best and most brain-melting special effects ever seen in film. It feels strangely similar to the first Iron Man, a kind of throw-back to the origins of the MCU. Mads Mikkelson is absolutely wasted in this film (he would have been my dream casting for Doctor Doom), and Tilda Swinton steals every scene she's in. The ending's tone is pulled straight out of the comics, to my utter delight. This film opens Strange up to some wonderful future possibilities, which we've already begun to see. 7/10

 

15. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: This film has some pretty big shoes to fill. The first film was a fantastic, confident and stylish departure from the other MCU fare, and it does seem like Gunn was feeling the pressure to replicate and improve upon all of those points. Unfortunately, while on paper this film is grander than the previous, it loses sight of some characterisation, the true linchpin of the original. The worst offence is Drax - a character who's motivations from the first film, the deep mourning for his family, and murderous need to gain vengeance, is replaced by a character who basically just laughs at everything.

There's a bit too much playing for laughs, and the music is a bit too shoehorned in, but there are some excellent messages about the importance of family, despite their imperfections. Kurt Russell is an inspired bit of casting for the role he plays. 7/10

 

16. Spider-Man: Homecoming: This film truly shows just what Marvel can do that other studios just can't. They truly understand the characters and storylines, and don't shy away from any of the details that might not translate so well to film. They've realised that getting Peter Parker right and getting Spider-Man right are two different jobs, and getting one right doesn't imply that that the other is a done deal.

We FINALLY have a Peter Parker who is actually a school-kid, and wisely manage to bypass the already battered-to-death origin story. Melding supporting characters from both the Peter Parker and Miles Morales runs works well in my opinion, and the film actually delivers a genuinely shocking twist for the first time in the MCU. Tom Holland nails it on all fronts, and Michael Keaton takes an easy paycheck, but does a fantastic job while doing it. The best Spider-Man film, despite the first 10 minutes delivering the two most maddening continuity errors in the whole MCU. 9/10

 

17. Thor: Ragnarok: Well, it only took them 2 feature films and 2 tie-in Avengers films, but they finally got Thor right. This film is a perfect symbiosis of the Marvel Studios juggernaut and a very singular and distinctive directorial style. Dispensing with the chaff of the franchise in hilariously brazen style, this film introduces new, much more engaging characters which embrace the inherent silliness of the franchise. Despite the levity of the film, the storyline lives up to its title in smuggling a cataclysmically dark story past the viewer. There are a few technical issues (perhaps the most blatant and noticeable green screen work in the MCU, and the lighting always looks very... studio-y), but there's such a sense of fun in this film that it's easily forgiven. Blanchett absolutely nails her role as Hela and obviously had great fun doing so. Korg is hilarious and Hulk is, for the first time, a fleshed out character. This is a masterclass in how to turn an ailing franchise around. 9/10

 

21. Captain Marvel: This is a strange one. Brie Larson nails it as a competent and confident, but never outright arrogant, protagonist. She has a real sense of empathy and justice, the real makings of a true hero. There is a really inspiring message about personal strength and determination that lifts the story up. The film is, however, not without fault, most of which can be laid down directly at the directors' feet. There are some questions about character motivations and reactions, and some of the action is poorly laid out. Some of the lighting is god-awful. Ben Mendelsohn nails his role as arch-Skrull. The 90's nods were lovely, although I wish they'd taken more advantage of the Riot Grrl music that was at their disposal. Hopefully this Cap's trilogy has the same trajectory as the other Cap's, and the sequels deliver on this film's promise. 6/10 

 

18. Black Panther: The real star of this film is the land of Wakanda. A wonderful job has been done here to flesh out and make real a jaw-dropping nation and culture, cribbed from bits and pieces of the various nations of southern Africa. My fiancee was thrilled to see the characters speaking Xhosa - apparently, everyone apart from the guy playing King T'Chaka absolutely massacres the accent. The antagonist - one that has a truly defensible viewpoint, and genuinely thinks that he's doing what's right - is played with genuine ferocity, and carries multiple fascinating subtexts in both his views and actions. He is absolutely dwarfed by Danai Gurira though - she very adeptly plays a truly fierce and determined woman. A huge highlight is the casino scene, which threatens to out-Bond Bond. Unfortunately the ending set-piece quickly descends into Marvel-by-numbers action, which doesn't manage to match the style and confidence of the first half of the film, and has sub-par CG work that isn't nearly as good as the stuff in the first Iron Man. Given the outpouring of love and undeniable cultural impact of this film, T'Challa will definitely be a central part of the MCU going forward. 8/10

 

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The Loki show is strongly rumoured to be about him as the shape shifting trickster and his contact and influence with humanity throughout history. A less strong rumour that Hiddleston is just narrating with others as the shape shifting trickster. 

 

And all the shows so far are limited series. 

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2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

And all the shows so far are limited series. 

 

That hopefully mean the series are of the right length to tell whatever story they're attempting.  The 13 episodes for the Netflix Marvel series would have worked much better if condensed to around 8.

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12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The Loki show is strongly rumoured to be about him as the shape shifting trickster and his contact and influence with humanity throughout history. A less strong rumour that Hiddleston is just narrating with others as the shape shifting trickster. 

 

And all the shows so far are limited series. 

 

Let's be honest - we only really want Kid Loki.

 

And anyone not expecting Benedict Cumberbatch and Tom Holland to get resurrected - along with the 50% of the Earth's population and wildlife who got snapped out of existence - isn't thinking about how hard it'd be for all future Marvel film directors to remember to do half-empty Times Square / Madison Square Gardens / Skyscraper shots in every film for the foreseeable future.

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Also - what about mayflies:

- If half of them snap out of existence, then back into existence, won't their annual cycles now be off by a few months, and now they'll be May and July Flies?

- If they were all incubating when the snap happened, won't they still be 100% Mayflies, and Thanos didn't actually manage to kill half of things that existed?

I think we should be told.

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9 minutes ago, footle said:

And anyone not expecting Benedict Cumberbatch and Tom Holland to get resurrected - along with the 50% of the Earth's population and wildlife who got snapped out of existence

 

That wasn't really the point I was making upthread. Vision didn't die to the snap, for example: he died trying to prevent it.

 

I can't even recall the snap status of Falcon or Winter Soldier.

 

My point was more that - yes, we're assuming the snap gets undone and 50% of the universe is restored - but that the promise of Endgame is supposedly that characters will die permanently in that effort. I think the common speculation is that it'll be the likes of Iron Man and Captain America for the chop (a combination of played out, expensive contracts and making space for new heroes) but nothing's certain.

 

If you're going in already knowing that Spider-Man is safe (ongoing movies), Dr Strange is safe (on going confirmed movie plans) and a few others I'm sure, and now also there's a series with Falcon and Winter Soldier, and a series with WandaVision, it's rather undermining the jeopardy - or focussing it on the few remaining.

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Just now, Uncle Mike said:

I can't even recall the snap status of Falcon or Winter Soldier.

 

Dust

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3 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

Similarly for WandaVision, when are these happening, given Vision is dead (and who cares, given Vision is dead?)

 

Vision was always coming back though, else why the faffing downloading him in Wakanda ?

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Stop announcing series with dead characters in them, Disney! And not just  'dusted dead', supposedly ACTUAL dead! FFS, why couldn't you wait until May?

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There were a fair few tears in the Spider-Man thread about Endgame spoilers in the Far From Home trailer also.

 

It does seem odd to me that the whole film is covered in this veil of secrecy, with fake footage in trailers, and false leads etc, and now we know it's likely Wanda, Vision, Falcon and Bucky all survive as well as the ones with ongoing movies confirmed.

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All these TV shows starting characters no one cares about (Loki aside), just give us the Many Adventures of Korg and Miek ffs! 

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1 minute ago, hub2 said:

Has Peggy Carter become Captain America in the comic books? Because that's a great idea.

 

Not to my recollection.

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10 hours ago, Treble said:

Aren't these announcements, like, massive spoilers for Endgame?

 

No more than the confirmed movie sequels. I think what this really tells us is that undoing the snap will happen at the end of Endgame.

 

7 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

It sort of feel like these shows are either going to have to be really short, or their existence constitute a set of Endgame spoilers. Is there that much of a window between the end of Civil War and Infinity War for Falcon and The Winter Soldier to be having buddy cop adventures? Similarly for WandaVision, when are these happening, given Vision is dead (and who cares, given Vision is dead?)

 

I'm not really a pointlessly negative person, but I detect a whiff of filler about these.

 

Whilst Wanda and Vision talk about all the time they've spent together the last few years, Bucky was in stasis in Wakanda, then woken up for Infinity War then snapped along with Falcon so there's literally no time where they could've had an adventure together.

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6 minutes ago, Broker said:

 

No more than the confirmed movie sequels. I think what this really tells us is that undoing the snap will happen at the end of Endgame.

 

 

Whilst Wanda and Vision talk about all the time they've spent together the last few years, Bucky was in stasis in Wakanda, then woken up for Infinity War then snapped along with Falcon so there's literally no time where they could've had an adventure together.

 

Bucky and Falcon car scene was brill, more old married couple than buddy cop

 

 

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