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Bayonetta 3 - Announced for Switch


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49 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

But you're focussing on one specific area, and how it's different to the first game without considering how completely over the top and bombastic the sequels are. 
I'm 100% convinced this is all completely deliberately implemented by the developers. They've juiced the game right up while deliberately breaking the scoring system to make it feel like everything is ott and exploding every where. It's totally a vibe and intentional. 

 

Even if it is intentional, and we completely disregard the grading/scoring - it creates a very one-dimensional gameplay experience where each and every enemy encounter plays out exactly the same. B2 has a few enemies like this, however with B3 it's the entirety of the heavy class. Throughout all my time on B3 I've not once had to stop and think about how to make an enemy vulnerable, or how to trigger a stun/stagger state, they all play out exactly the same: Activate Demon Slave, and then just press random buttons until either they die or the meter runs out. Even trying to layer Demon Slave attacks and switching demons out tag-team style results in a time penalty.

 

There haven't even been any memorable boss fights so far, at least not memorable for good reasons. That Twilight Sentinel (?) dude looked promising, but then none of his attacks are signposted whatsoever, so that's another job for Demon Slave.

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1 hour ago, dataDave said:

 

Even if it is intentional, and we completely disregard the grading/scoring - it creates a very one-dimensional gameplay experience where each and every enemy encounter plays out exactly the same. B2 has a few enemies like this, however with B3 it's the entirety of the heavy class. Throughout all my time on B3 I've not once had to stop and think about how to make an enemy vulnerable, or how to trigger a stun/stagger state, they all play out exactly the same: Activate Demon Slave, and then just press random buttons until either they die or the meter runs out. Even trying to layer Demon Slave attacks and switching demons out tag-team style results in a time penalty.

 

There haven't even been any memorable boss fights so far, at least not memorable for good reasons. That Twilight Sentinel (?) dude looked promising, but then none of his attacks are signposted whatsoever, so that's another job for Demon Slave.

 

One man's "very one-dimensional gameplay experience" is another man's fucking amazing bombastic time. 
...and I've been there, rinsing both DMC3 and Bayo1 and following tips from Saur and all that shit, but that doesn't - in my opinion - make the sequels bad if they go for a different vibe. It's like saying EDF is crap because it's not Counter Strike.

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EDF isn't a direct sequel to Counter-Strike. Surely you would understand the frustration if that was the case, though? That's exactly why I can still fully enjoy MadWorld/Max Anarchy without those games being anywhere near the depth of Bayonetta, or indeed either of the sequels.

 

I think it's fair to say that, despite two or three unique cases, Platinum fall into delivering DMC2 type experiences time and time again. That doesn't stop anyone from thinking that DMC2 is by far the best in the series because they personally love it to pieces.

 

Sacrificing tried-and-tested gameplay mechanics (such as audio cues, and the crowd/screen control) as a trade-off for instant-gratification spectacle, which is now required by the grading system, across direct sequels, is the wrong way to go; especially when it could be entirely possible to run with both at the same time.

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Video game legend Kamiya, like everyone, is dependent on the people around him I think.

I remember Platinum running a series of interviews with the Bayo 1 devs, including the player and AI programmer who has a ridiculous resume of games including God Hand, Resi 4, Viewtiful Joe, DMC and Transformers: Devastation. From what I'm reading here it sounds like there's a change in design philosophy or in personnel perhaps as it's a stark contrast to what has come before it.

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4 hours ago, iwubcode said:

including the player and AI programmer who has a ridiculous resume of games including God Hand, Resi 4, Viewtiful Joe, DMC and Transformers: Devastation.

 

Just seeing those names typed out in a line like that sends shivers down my spine.

 

Edit: They’d only offer me €20 trade-in. 🤣 Gonna have to wait for Astral Chain.

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8 hours ago, dataDave said:

 

Please! Play more than just a bit! Once you're flawlessly reacting to audio, offsetting combos to the point where you only see the Wicked Weaves coming out, and no longer playing with Witch Time; you'll actually fully 'get' what makes it a 10/10. It doesn't take hundreds of hours to get to that stage, either.


Oh I will do, I really like it! What is Witch time, when you do a backflip to dodge and it slows down? That’s pretty much my only technique! :lol:

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22 minutes ago, ZOK said:


Oh I will do, I really like it! What is Witch time, when you do a backflip to dodge and it slows down? That’s pretty much my only technique! :lol:


That’s right. You do more damage and earn more points during Witch Time. That’s just the surface - later on you depend on it for crowd control and triggering stun/stagger/cartwheel states in order to lift enemies off the ground which can’t normally be done.

 

You can also try taunting the enemies to make them angry. They go red, hit harder and faster, and can’t be juggled around - but you get more bonus points which stack with Witch Time.

 

The maximum scoring potential is to trigger Witch Time against an angered foe whilst equipped with an enemy’s weapon. Torture Attacks (cost one whole magic bar) are used to force an enemy to drop their weapon. Weapons work just like most other weapons you can pick up in a scrolling fighter, so tons of easy damage and points.

 

Don’t forget that your points (halos) are also the game’s currency for buying more moves, equipment and accessories - so you have a legitimate purpose for scoring big.

 

Maybe we take this to the other thread, but for Normal mode just stick to the Scarborough Fair handguns, long-press/hold combo inputs, and try to unlock as much stuff as you can. Don’t get too hung up on trying to master Witch Time because the game will up the tempo of the incoming enemy attacks to something more natural on Hard Mode.

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13 hours ago, Stanley said:

Should I cross this one off my Christmas list then? I very almost ordered the LE but I held back. 


 

I mean it’s a Nintendo game so still worth picking up if you’re curious as it’ll be years before it’s cheaper and you can trade it in for a good price once you’re done.

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With the caveat that I'm one of the outliers that prefers Bayo 2 to Bayo 1, I'm starting to think this is pretty fucking great. Really enjoying wieving attacks between the demon slaves and the lady herself. 

 

The game does a pretty terrible job of onboarding, but I'm finding it more and more satisfying to play with each passing hour. 

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Okay. It's come to the point where I'm just mainlining this and not doing much exploring because fuck it. It's unbelievably frustrating. Maybe I'm misremembering but I felt like the first two games were better at signposting when an enemy is about to attack, and didn't have as many enemy's just battering you from off screen.

 

A lot of the fights I'm squinting at the screen as I use my summon to batter something in the distance. If this is the thing they took from Scalebound then thank fuck that game was cancelled.

 

Maybe I'll play Astral Chain. That's supposed to be top tier Platinum right?

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2 hours ago, Gambit said:

Okay. It's come to the point where I'm just mainlining this and not doing much exploring because fuck it. It's unbelievably frustrating. Maybe I'm misremembering but I felt like the first two games were better at signposting when an enemy is about to attack, and didn't have as many enemy's just battering you from off screen.

 

A lot of the fights I'm squinting at the screen as I use my summon to batter something in the distance. If this is the thing they took from Scalebound then thank fuck that game was cancelled.

 

I spent a lot more time on it last night. It seems that the smaller humanoids are the only guys with the cues, as well as a few other medium/large ones. It's probably engineered this way on purpose for you to essentially 'farm' meter gain off of them while you maybe want to dispatch the big guys first with your Demon.

 

But then I tried playing like that (for a good while) and it's not enjoyable at all. As soon as one big guy falls the lock-on is gone and your demon ends up wiping all the little guys out anyway. Then there are encounters where the support foes don't have cues again... so it's all in vain. The best method for meter, which utterly thrashes any other potential method, is to offset into Demon Masquerade as frequently as possible and string her attacks together non-stop with the command specials. All the command specials build meter now as opposed to expending it, it's a bold move but it works as a good build-up to more Demon Slave. As an aside I've noticed that incoming lasers are easily the most distinguishable visual cue in the game - they overlay everything to stand out nicely and after a few attempts at the timing it's honestly difficult take a hit from one ever again. Those guys are done somewhat right!

 

When all this works it's not bad. It's the massive inconsistencies with the enemy behaviours that let it down. Seeing Grace and Glory (those two twin claw dudes that were fucking awesome on B1) return in castrated form once again, like they did at the end of B2, is heartbreaking. You could put a training room containing just those two onto a disc for me and I'll pay £70.

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Played about 50mins of this and was pretty bored to be honest, which is odd as I liked the previous games. There hasn’t been any real onboarding yet minus the summons so am mainly just dodging and shooting, not really sure what to do but it’s working I guess. 
 

Maybe I’m mad with deluded memories but this really does feel like a pound store version of bayonetta, a lot less polish. 

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1 hour ago, Jamie John said:

Well, well. Opinions on this have certainly soured. It's currently sitting at an 88% score on Open Critic. Why does everyone else seem to like it so much?


Because like someone up-thread said, it’s easy to look like a badass. Genuinely feeling like one is another story entirely. Instant gratification ticks a lot of boxes for a lot of people.

 

There’s certainly scope for much more creative combos compared to the second game, but playing like that is scored poorly, and is outright impossible against most of the enemies.

 

I’m just hoping there are one or two decent boss fights at some point so I can salvage some of this €60 back.

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I seem to be cheesing most of my way through B1…I’m up to the second fight with Jeanne where I seem to be stuck now, does anyone know how far that is? A fight on a falling rock or something after fighting some big flying snakes. I keep getting wasted on the second part of the fight where the rock breaks.

 

Although I’ve not used any items yet, maybe I need some to get me through.

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9 minutes ago, ZOK said:

I seem to be cheesing most of my way through B1…I’m up to the second fight with Jeanne where I seem to be stuck now, does anyone know how far that is? A fight on a falling rock or something after fighting some big flying snakes. I keep getting wasted on the second part of the fight where the rock breaks.

 

Although I’ve not used any items yet, maybe I need some to get me through.


It about half-way through. The Jeanne fights are one of the best things about the game, so there will definitely be a routine to it but I can’t quite remember what it is. I’ll jump into it later.

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It is finished. Wow that was a slog. Nonsensical plot, terrible new characters and mechanics. And the cut scenes are just messy. It's probably not a good idea to have excessive particle effects on screen, coupled that with shaky cam and constant cuts like it's a Michael Bay film, results in some headache inducing nonsense. And I loved Bayonetta 1 and 2.

 

Some spoilers regarding gameplay mechanics that come later in  the game:

 

Spoiler
Spoiler

I was excited for a big Kaiji fight. Then it's revealed to be a rock, paper, scissors game? What is this, fucking Alex Kidd? When it's just Bayonetts fights then it's pretty good. Even though a lot of the fights just devolved into stand back, summon monster and squint at the screen as you mash a button till everything falls down. 

 

 

Regarding the story and ending:

 

Spoiler

If Viola was my daughter I'd prefer to go to hell as well to be honest.

 

As it was pointed out previously in the thread, nothing made sense. By the end I was just confused as to what anyones motivation was. It also made me laugh how it starts exactly like Multiverse of Madness and then ends like No Way Home. 

 

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I've been playing this a lot, 50 hours I think it says. Mixed feelings but mostly veering towards positive in that I think there's some great ideas here, but the enemy encounter design and overall readability makes it fatiguing to play at times. I think it mostly justifies its scores though and I prefer it to the other 2 games, neither of which challenged DMC imo for open ended combat but B3's new options can add a lot at times and it's a pretty original direction to take a game like this in.

 

Basically it feels like a really expressive stylish action game, not on the same level as a DMC5 but close enough for it to not matter much. There's a lot of cool things you can do with the summons, you can pull them out during some of your longer attacks' active frames, or their recovery, or if your really good you can even 'dodge offset' into it. There's some fun synergy to find there and I think it's the coolest combat system out of the 3

 

But the enemy design especially on higher levels sort of favours a more explosive Looney tunes approach, with you mixing up certain demon slaves into hugely disabling AOEs for max DPS. I think there's a lot of potentially interesting interactivity that could happen if the enemy AI wasn't completely aggro at all times (even off camera) and was safer to approach more often. The sucker punches and hellish pixel graphics smother what you can get away with, not always in a way that feels by design (or at least by good design). I've never been into the idea that games like this need to be super fast and hard to react to to be good, but Platinum kind of tend to go that way with things. While DMC games feature more passive enemy fodder along with the hard ones to have a more organic feeling path to improvement, also most crucially the enemies shut up when off screen most of the time.

 

I'll probably still play it a lot and try to reach whatever my personal limit is. I'm grinding my way through witch trials 3 which is kinda ridiculous with its first verse, so my strategy for that one is the Looney Tunes approach. Anyway this is as far as I've got so far, purely info gathering for now (first time seeing verse 3), will clean it up soon enough

 

 

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3 hours into this now and it’s just awful, rarely am I so disappointed so soon after purchasing. The onboarding is relentlessly pointless. It doesn’t help that it’s not even funny.

 

I liked 1 and 2 but this just isn’t bayonetta at all to me.

 

This really is a 6/10 at MOST.

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