Jump to content
rllmuk
Sartre84

Dark (Netflix)

Recommended Posts

I honestly don't think any TV series are usually this convoluted outside of the more mad and out there anime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not much encouragement for those of us that gave up on season 2 when that aired, I was confused enough then and I still even remembered the plot a little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically anyone who thinks they can watch this while fiddling with their phone is in for a rude awakening.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say definitely stick with it, the last couple of episodes of S02 really help tie things up.

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Not much encouragement for those of us that gave up on season 2 when that aired, I was confused enough then and I still even remembered the plot a little.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just when I thought I had a handle on what was going on again and in Season 3 they:

 

Spoiler

introduced the idea of a third world on top of the second one I was like: fuck you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it mad that I don't recall the 3 'killers' with the funny lip? I've got no idea how they tie into the story or why they are doing what they are doing.

 

Just to clarify, is this how many versions of characters there are? You can check this spoiler after episode 1 of the new season;

 

Spoiler

 

5?

 

1800's (i.e the Victorian ones)

x3 from 1950 to 2050 ish

New World

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Capwn said:

Is it mad that I don't recall the 3 'killers' with the funny lip? I've got no idea how they tie into the story or why they are doing what they are doing.

 

I've got no idea who they are either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They don’t appear prior to S03E01. I assume it’s three versions of the same person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It''s explained who the three Unknowns are near the end of the season.
 

Spoiler

The son of Martha and Jonas as a boy, middle-aged man and old man.


Definitely one of my favourite series ever. It's complex, deals with pretty much the biggest themes you can deal with, it's generally well-acted (Martha especially), it's beautifully shot and the OST is tremendous. And it sticks the landing, something so many shows fumble with.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watched episodes 3 and 4 today.

 

Episode 3:

 

Spoiler

The Adam and Eve contrast was very well done, with some nice role reversals: Adam manipulating Martha and then in the alternate world Eve manipulating Jonas.

 

Still wondering about the scarred lip trio, clearly they are the same person but not sure who they were.


episode 4:

Spoiler

Well that clears up who the scarred lip trio were. 
 

Feel kinda sad for Hannah now, whatever timeline she’s in she’s still getting fucked over by someone. No happy ending for her I suspect.

 

hopefully they’ll flesh out more about the point of the origin and his purpose in the next episode or two.


Still the only show that I have to pause on occasion to google a character and what their relevance is. If they released an accompanying app or book for this it will be bought.

 

Wouldnt mind a replica time machine too, it looks fantastic.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I'm on episode 5, it's getting better. I still don't know who 'lip trio' are, let me know in spoiler tags Indy! 

 

Three things...

 

1. That transition warp effect between scenes, like WHAT THE HELL? Who approved that?! It's like something from the 80's Batman show. Madness.

2. The last minute or so of every show where it's all slow motion with a song, is that a new thing? or has it always done that? Feels a bit tacky to do it EVERY episode.

3. Yeah still no idea what's going on but I get the general gist (people traveling around in time changing stuff) and am enjoying it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The warp effect signifies switching worlds from scene to scene.

 

The music interlude has always been there.

Anyway just watched Episode 6.

 

 

Wow ok. So there’s two Space Marthas, and two Normal Jonases?

 


 

Space Martha 1 saves Normal Jonas 1, although he ends up dying anyway at the hands of Space Martha 2. Goes to 1888. Goes to Adam. Get captured and nuked.

 

Space Martha 2 doesn’t save Normal Jonas 2. He hides in the basement, then goes on to become Stranger/Adam. She goes on to kill Normal Jonas 1, then on to become Eve.

 

I think that’s right??

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished episode 5 tonight.

 

Spoiler

Some big things happening! Didn’t think Jonas would be offed until the end via some form of self sacrifice but shows what I know.

 

The only loose end I have at the minute is when Adam makes people go into the room with the black goo, what happens to them?


@capwn:

 

Spoiler

Lip trio must surely be the child of Jonas and Martha.

 

 The fade at the end of the episode when Martha has her hand on her stomach and is told that is the origin then they conveniently show the middle age lip man makes it clear to me.

 

Although 9 out 10 things I thought was correct in this show were actually wrong so take the above with a pinch of salt!

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/06/2020 at 04:20, NexivRed said:


 

  Reveal hidden contents

Her own Grandmother, not mother  


 

Okay, finished this. Understand everything except one thing, and I can’t find anything online about it. 
 

Who was

  Hide contents

The man in the carriage with the blind child version of “Old man Tannhaus”, and why did he have the “for Charlotte” stopwatch?

 

I thought it was going to link up with 1970/1980s clockmaker Tannhaus in some way, seeing as he lost his granddaughter Charlotte, and seeing as they focused on the old carriage dude and blind kid when talking about “someone who tried to bring someone back from the dead”.

 

Why was old man Tannhaus getting Jonas to build the machine? Just doesn’t explain who he is  

 


 

Spoiler

He is Heinrich Tannhaus, the great grandfather of H.G. His wife's name was Charlotte. The watch was a gift to her. She died and Heinrich founded Sic Mundus to try and bring her back through time travel. The watch is passed on to this son Gustav, the blind man who owns the factory Jonas, Barthosz, Magnus and Franziska travel to. The Unknows (the child of Jonas and Martha) kill Gustav and take the watch. It mirrors what happens to H.G. Tannhaus who loses his son Marek, daughter-in-law Sonja and granddaughter Charlotte in the prime world. Until he doesn't because Jonas and Martha prevent their death and by doing so erase the Adam and Eve dimensions out of existence.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished episode 6, so much went on (and over my head) that I think I might have to watch it again tomorrow:

 

Spoiler

- Jonas is still alive,would Adam still be around if he wasn’t?

 

- so many Martha’s now I have lost track of which ones which!


gutted I only have two series left and moreso that no one else I know is watching it so I can’t bounce ideas and theories around in person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahh yeh, forgot about the

Spoiler

branch speech and sequence

.

 

might try and finish this tonight with a double header of 7 and 8, maybe watching more than 1 a day will help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I finished Series 3 last night, so let's have a fun chat about Time Travel :)Time travel is really cool. But obviously a bit problematic in terms of storytelling. In my experience, it can be handled in one of three ways. Let's call them Methods 1, 2 and 3.


Method 1: Consider a person who travels back in time from point B to point A. This can be dealt with according to the rules that no matter what events occur between points A and B, the time travel leap at point B *must* occur. You cannot change anything. Everything that occurs in time will happen, has happened, and will always happen. Events in the past are inextricably linked to events in the future and visa versa. Cause and effect does not just work in the sense of time passing forwards, but also backwards. This means that you can be your own father (for example), but the logic kind of still holds up, at least to the point where we can make sense of a story. Diagram:

 

image.png.844b78a19632755441e9464875f554d3.png

 

Method 2: The second way involving a single timeline would be that if a person travels back from B to A but *is* able to change events that lead to point B occurring. For example, if the person kills their former self before point B, then the time-leap can never occur, therefore they never could have gone back in time and killed themselves. It's a total paradox and I don't know how to model it on a diagram. Films/TV/stories seem to handle this by having the person disappear/disintegrate at the point at which they kill their former self, or stop them from travelling at point B.


Method 3: If your characters do need to be able to change past events but you don't want to tie them in a logical fallacy, then when a person travels back in time from point B to point A another timeline (let's call it Red) can get created in which the person does not need to travel back in time again at point B, because although point B still happens it is now independent from the timeline that the person has put themselves on. This means that they can kill their former self, or imprison them, or whatever, and stop them reenacting that point B time leap. But the logic still holds because of the separation of two universes/timelines. Diagram:

 

image.png.7ed7178d69f40147ec50d30406e23b1a.png

 

Now. I think one of the reasons that Dark is so confusing (aside from trying to keep track of how everyone is their own grandparent) is that it's very difficult to work out which of these sets of rules time-travel adheres to. Spoilers from here on in!
 

Spoiler

 

My first revelation (unfortunately happening only after I'd finished the final episode) happened when I realised that the introduction of the "knot" changes the way we must look at the three different methods. The theory (as far as I understood) was that there are (was?) three worlds; two (let's call them red and blue) having been created (by the "Origin World" when Tannhaus first time travels) and crucially somehow tied together by a "knot" (sorry about all the parentheses). I think this can be kind of modeled by this janky diagram:

 

image.png.019374f1c8fbbc9ebfa4f4e5ab054335.png


Throughout the vast majority of Dark it seems that no one can change the past. The characters are given the tools to apparently undo mistakes - but the dramatic irony being that they are trapped in a universe in which it seems impossible. So at first I thought we were dealing with Method 1. For example, Jonas travels back in time and tries to save his father from committing suicide, but inadvertently actually causes him to commit suicide. It seems that no matter what people do their actions result in the same consequences they are specifically trying to avoid. BUT, in that case, how does Claudia eventually break the cycle? Well, because of the knot, what might be happening is a sort of bastardisation of Methods 1 and 3; every time someone travels back they can change past events but only in ways that still cause the knot to be preserved. So now we have:

 

image.png.c6b8a57df390c73b5d3d5c8c52501f9a.png


So this allows Claudia to learn more each time passing back the information to her former self, thus allowing her to have her revelation - but it also neatly explains why no one can significantly change events because the two worlds are tied together and have events that *must* occur at certain points in their timelines in order to preserve the knot. It also works when characters jump between worlds, like this:

 

image.png.cffdafdc9897e33604e72624af9f49d0.png


Problem solved you may be thinking! But not so fast. At the very end of Series 3 we see Jonas and Martha able to delete themselves and all of their timelines from history by changing the events of the Origin timeline. So now it suddenly looks like we’re looking at Method 2. And even setting aside the fact that we see Jonas randomly disappear at a certain point in “time” in the montage even though that time no longer exists, it still feels like we’re starting to have to make a few little leaps in order to make sense of things.

 

If Jonas and Martha were able to wipe all of their worlds and timelines from existence, then it seems like the Origin world does not adhere to the same rules of time as the two worlds it spawned. An alternative explanation though could be that they were only able to do this because they found the “loophole”. Here’s what Claudia says about the loophole in the final episode, speaking to Jonas/Adam:

 

Quote

I know where the loophole is that you’ve searched for all this time. Time. During the apocalypse it stood still for a fraction of a second.

 

So wait wait wait hold up hold up. Time stood still for a fraction of a second? How can you measure time standing still in a unit of time? Even as pseudoscience things are starting to get pretttyy freeeaakky. But let’s not get distracted :). Let's and assume she means that the world stood still for a small amount of time. What else do Adam and Claudia say?

 

Quote

That threw everything out of balance, but when time stands still the chain of cause and effect is momentarily broken.

 

One can, change things?

 

[Yes] Eva knows that. She uses the loophole in your world to send her younger self off to one direction of another in order to preserve the cycle.

 

So now it looks like maybe these characters have been able to change time all along - albeit only using that small amount of "time" at the moment of the apocalypse - but their own free will and actions have been preserving the knot. So when the viewer sees people time traveling, sometimes they are able to change the past - sometimes they aren’t (if they didn’t use the loophole) - but regardless in every episode except the final one the same things still happen each time because when they are able they choose to preserve the knot. That’s the only explanation I can find after thinking about this for a not insignificant amount of time. And even then it’s a stretch because logically you’d think that someone would have slipped up at some point and inadvertently caused things that needed to happen to not happen and everything would have started disintegrating.

 


I'm not sure how to end this as it's kind of a work in progress but I'm not sure if I want to progress because of the possibility that Dark doesn't hold up to this kind of analysis. I think it's really fun to think about though and would love to hear people's thoughts :) 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty nuts that all scenes in 

Spoiler

Eva's dimension

 

are mirrored.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished this yesterday too:

 

Spoiler

Really glad that it had a proper ending with actual closure rather than teasing something else, makes a change these days.

 

Felt like a right muppet when Claudia told Adam about the three universes and I didn’t pick it up sooner, moreso that her book has a three pronged infinite loop symbol on it, the signs were there.

 

Also was quite amused at how the solution to it all was really quite simple once they knew that it was all Tannhaus’ doing, after some of the 3D chess level of cause and effect chains it really was as simple as stopping one action taking place.

 

My favourite sceneS were the one with Jonas talking to Michael near the end of S2 when he realise he was duped by Adam and the scene with Adam and Eva in the finale when she pulled the trigger but there were no bullets in the gun, coupled with both of them accepting their mortality in the end rather than just keeping the cycle going to keep themselves alive.

 

Shame it’s over but what a ride!

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started to question my sanity when 

Spoiler

the scared lip and cheek cut was on the other side of their face. Great little touch that.

 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my favourite little things:

 

Spoiler

 

When the 2019 teenagers are swimming in the lake, Magnus and Bartoz (I think) are telling Martha about the legend of the lady that was drowned in the lake and that her ghost'll grab a swimmer's ankles, only for the later reveal of the source of this legend being that back in the 80s it's Magnus and Martha's grandmother murdering their Mum (who's gone back in time to try and spring their Dad from the asylum) and then dumping the body in the lake!

 

Also pleased that '80s scene filled in the "well how did the Saint Christopher get *there* then?" gap.

 

 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My girlfriend has insisted we re-watch seasons 1 and 2 before trying to tackle season 3 (we gave the first 3 episodes a go but I had to keep Google things to remind myself what had happened before).

 

We did notice a few scenes in episode 1, season 1 are directly mirrored in episode 1, season 3 and that was a very nice touch. It's definitely one of the best written shows I've ever seen.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished, it KIND of made sense in the end. As in I got a very vague idea of what they were doing. I'm glad they wrapped it up well, it was a good time to end it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never bothered with this because I assumed it was just another series that Netflix churned out. What an idiot. 
 

Watched season 1 this rainy weekend. I’m obsessed. :omg:

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished this last night. Thought it just about pulled off the ending, but considering everything that was going on it's a miracle they even got close.

 

Although I did think that the the penultimate episode...

 

Spoiler

...'Between Times' that filled in the gaps in the 33 year chunks was absolutely outstanding.

 

Particularly enjoyed the total headfuckery of Elisabeth and Charlotte kidnapping Charlotte from Elisabeth so that Charlotte could go back in time to grow up and become her own mother's mother.

 

An excellent series that knew exactly when to stop.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never known a series to wrap up so well. Lots of ambiguity that can be further ironed out with repeat viewings due to the paradoxical nature of the story.

 

I said I was going to miss it after it ended, but I think I'll just watch S1 again at the same time next year.

 

Let's keep ourselves updated with what these guys work on next, please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.