The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[wev]

The thing with the "fan-fiction" style criticism is that if it didn't have the Lord of the Rings branding there'd be as many people saying it was a Lord of the Rings rip off and why didn't they just pay for the licensing etc 

[Benny]

I'm not sure that makes sense, as if it was actually trying to do something original that criticism wouldn't track anyway. The reason it looks like Lord of the Rings is literally because they are making something with the LotR licence.

[JoeK]

6 hours ago, Nick R said:

 

Game of Thrones is a bit different, because George RR Martin was involved with the TV series to some extent. I know he wrote screenplays for episodes in the early seasons - but how involved was he after the series progressed beyond the novels?

 

Presumably he either told them to bugger the fuck off for the last season, or - probably more likely - he told them to just do whatever they wanted to, because I'm not going to tell you what I'm gonna do with it.

 

I'm still terribly concerned that he'll pop his clogs before he writes that last book - he always looks like he's being held together with tape and soldering wire.

[Festoon]

26 minutes ago, JoeK said:

 

Presumably he either told them to bugger the fuck off for the last season, or - probably more likely - he told them to just do whatever they wanted to, because I'm not going to tell you what I'm gonna do with it.

 

I'm still terribly concerned that he'll pop his clogs before he writes that last book - he always looks like he's being held together with tape and soldering wire.

 

a) he hasn't a fucking clue what he's going to do

OR

a) he told them and is now stumped to think of something new because it wasn't liked

 

b)there is NO WAY he is every going to finish them. He's lost interest.

[Stig]

Hes totally having to back peddle and rewrite after his final ruler was revealed and everyone said how shit it was.

 

Although at least he has time to tell that story, how we get there and not rush past all the details like the show did. 

[Festoon]

2 hours ago, Stigweard said:

Hes totally having to back peddle and rewrite after his final ruler was revealed and everyone said how shit it was.

 

Although at least he has time to tell that story, how we get there and not rush past all the details like the show did. 

 

But not in two books he doesn't, not without also rushing it.

[Delargey]

Can we try to keep the GRRM specific chat to the HotD thread - it's getting confusing.

[JoeK]

On 28/08/2022 at 00:40, Delargey said:

Can we try to keep the GRRM specific chat to the HotD thread - it's getting confusing.

 

Pah. Next you'll be saying we can't talk about Dragonlance in here, and that's all everyone really wants to talk about.

 

Slippery slope all this y'know.

[Festoon]

2 hours ago, JoeK said:

 

Pah. Next you'll be saying we can't talk about Dragonlance in here, and that's all everyone really wants to talk about.

 

Slippery slope all this y'know.

 

That's back, too! #joke

[redbloodcell]

On 25/08/2022 at 17:07, Capwn said:

I've been going down a bit of a rabbit hole with men on youtube ranting about how their beloved LOTR has been ruined by shills/sheeple/liberals etc. Apparently the character of the main female protagonist in the books was pretty weak but in this show  WTF?! she has a sword and acts tough etc. So apparently it's 'Rey Skywalker' all over again, which I don't get as she was a new character? I'm not joking by the way but there are dozens of these videos on youtube. At this point it's not a surprise of course but I find it quite funny in this case, I'm sure they didn't make videos about Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet messing around with Shakespeare's material etc. It's LOTR, come on.

 

Galadriel has always been one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, so much their supposed "love" of Lord of the Rings. 

[Festoon]

35 minutes ago, redbloodcell said:

 

Galadriel has always been one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, so much their supposed "love" of Lord of the Rings. 

 

Their problem is that she is a woman. The problem is always that she is a woman.

[Chindie]

In fairness I have an issue with the portrayal of Galadriel and it's nothing to do with her being a woman. It's too do with this character being nothing like the one we see in the books.

[footle]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

In fairness I have an issue with the portrayal of Galadriel and it's nothing to do with her being a woman. It's too do with this character being nothing like the one we see in the books.

 

She's something like 7000+ years old at the end of the Lord of the Rings. In the Second Age she's just a few hundred (depending on when it's been set), a couple of thousand at most.

[Stig]

30 minutes ago, footle said:

 

She's something like 7000+ years old at the end of the Lord of the Rings. In the Second Age she's just a few hundred (depending on when it's been set), a couple of thousand at most.

 

Come on Footle, you should know by now thay people can't change over several thousand years. 

[Festoon]

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

In fairness I have an issue with the portrayal of Galadriel and it's nothing to do with her being a woman. It's too do with this character being nothing like the one we see in the books.

 

Eh? She was portrayed as a rebel leader in Valinor in the Silmarillion.

 

Wasn't she nicknamed the Man Maiden or something when she was younger? I definitely read it in a few of the books.

[Chindie]

49 minutes ago, Festoon said:

 

Eh? She was portrayed as a rebel leader in Valinor in the Silmarillion.

 

Wasn't she nicknamed the Man Maiden or something when she was younger? I definitely read it in a few of the books.

 

She's effectively Elven royalty, just because she's a leader in a rebellion doesn't mean she's swinging a sword and wearing armour. She's involved with opposing the kinslaying despite being involved in the rebellion, but even then it's not clear she was actually fighting in it. She's a high ranking officer, a major, a leader, someone commanding others - and she's not even a particularly important figure at that point.  And by the time this series is set her story is basically just her wandering around Middle-Earth and acting as a bit of a meandering royal ambassador, getting married, taking up leadership of a few Elven peoples in the world, and being a minor character in the story of the forging of the rings. She's just not a warrior. Even her ambition is described by Tolkein is of wanting to be a ruler - she wants to have a kingdom in the new world.

 

Tolkein does describe her as being a tall and strong individual, as well as beautiful, but there's nothing describing her as a warrior. I've no doubt she's capable, she takes part in the crossing of the Helcaraxe, she's not some helpless princess, but that's a long way removed from Xena like figure we've got here. So it becomes a bit, Galadriel in name only, in which case you may as well just put in another character entirely. They're making up loads of other stuff, scribble out Galadriel for *insert Elven name* and have done with it. Or just ditch the warrior side of things and go with what she is more known for, which is basically being a supremely powerful magical entity who can destroy fortresses and repel evil with just her very presence.

[JPL]

When are reviews expected for this?

[Mikes]

They've been coming in on certain Youtube channels for months already.

[Festoon]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

 

She's effectively Elven royalty, just because she's a leader in a rebellion doesn't mean she's swinging a sword and wearing armour. She's involved with opposing the kinslaying despite being involved in the rebellion, but even then it's not clear she was actually fighting in it. She's a high ranking officer, a major, a leader, someone commanding others - and she's not even a particularly important figure at that point.  And by the time this series is set her story is basically just her wandering around Middle-Earth and acting as a bit of a meandering royal ambassador, getting married, taking up leadership of a few Elven peoples in the world, and being a minor character in the story of the forging of the rings. She's just not a warrior. Even her ambition is described by Tolkein is of wanting to be a ruler - she wants to have a kingdom in the new world.

 

Tolkein does describe her as being a tall and strong individual, as well as beautiful, but there's nothing describing her as a warrior. I've no doubt she's capable, she takes part in the crossing of the Helcaraxe, she's not some helpless princess, but that's a long way removed from Xena like figure we've got here. So it becomes a bit, Galadriel in name only, in which case you may as well just put in another character entirely. They're making up loads of other stuff, scribble out Galadriel for *insert Elven name* and have done with it. Or just ditch the warrior side of things and go with what she is more known for, which is basically being a supremely powerful magical entity who can destroy fortresses and repel evil with just her very presence.

 

I'm pretty sure she is described as a warrior and fighting fairly clearly in Unfinished Tales. I think your interpretation is that of a battle commander, but eh, I don't think so, and have never thought that from the books. 

 

The man-maiden thing seems to me to imply physical prowess, along with Tolkien describing her as Amazonian - more famous for their y'know, fighting than strategising.

 

Also "she was a ward of Doriath who often went to borders of Doriath to hunt down the enemies".

 

But she didn't fight them? Just watched from the sidelines?

[Darren]

11 hours ago, Chindie said:

She's effectively Elven royalty, just because she's a leader in a rebellion doesn't mean she's swinging a sword and wearing armour.

 

[pledge]

My Prime Video's app static loading image has been changed to advertise this

[Chindie]

Reviews of the first 2 episodes seen to skip between mocking it as boring, overwrought and confusing, to unparalleled cinematic brilliance unlike that ever seen on TV.

[Captain Kelsten]

So just like the books and films, then! 

[wev]

Recently finished reading The Two Towers so am ready for some live action Tolkien again, will be starting Return of the King in coming weeks too (once I've finished this Phillip K Dick book)

[Mikes]

6 hours ago, Chindie said:

Reviews of the first 2 episodes seen to skip between mocking it as boring, overwrought and confusing, to unparalleled cinematic brilliance unlike that ever seen on TV.

 

The ones I'm seeing are all positive. Although the feeds I'm following were all Tolkien streams in general rather than just RoP, and they were mostly cautiously excited, but they're all reporting it's either good or great. 

 

I did read though that thare's 50 hours worth of story planned over the whole life span. That seems.... a lot.

 

Anyway, Lord of the Rings enters public domain in Canada next year, so I can publish my "Predator, but in Moria" story.

[kensei]

On 29/08/2022 at 21:30, Festoon said:

 

Eh? She was portrayed as a rebel leader in Valinor in the Silmarillion.

 

Wasn't she nicknamed the Man Maiden or something when she was younger? I definitely read it in a few of the books.

 

As with everything Silmarillion, there are multiple versions. If anything, Tolkien was moving away from Galadriel being quite so prideful and initially asking for permission to go to Middle Earth, because once again Tolkien was super Catholic and hated his "good" characters outright defying God.

 

The First Age is essentially one long battle. The notable thing about Galadriel is that she doesn't get involved, viewing it as hopeless without the Valar. Her brothers fight and die. In the Second Age, she wanders about a bit and established her own fiefdom but there's no record that she fought in any battles, nor that she was at the Last Alliance. Who is there a record of? Elrond, as Gil Galad's herald.

 

If Galadriel had fought in big battles, Tolkien would have written a twee and somewhat irritating ballad about it. This seems 100% certain. She's powerful but probably more in a "Luthien unleashed her power and the walls fell down" kind of way. I dislike the Hobbit films but that is probably closer.

 

But it's not just Galadriel in armour. There's knock on effects and odd choices. Why would Elrond dismiss Galadriel's concerns? Galadriel would have been one of the greatest left on Middle Earth, having seen the two trees. Elves and men in a relationship. Non bearded dwarf ladies. Compressing literally thousands of years in a short space of time (yes, TV, but anthologies are a thing and you've a load of immortal characters to cut across it)

 

You can go - well nothing contradicts the text and it'll likely be true because of legality if nothing else. But you can do that and still have something that feels wrong.

 

About a million years ago, I ranted extensively on the Edge forums about the shitness of the Lord of The Rings films because how they changed Aragon and a bunch of other things. And indeed, 90% of Jackson's changes are pure shite. But I have loosened up a bit since because adaptations have to adapt and what works on the page might not work well on screen. Treat them as different animals.

 

It's still speculating on trailers. But given reviews have said "Tolkien nerds won't like it but..." I feel this may challenge my zen. Anduril was reforged immediately after the Council of Elrond, dammit, and I mean how the fuck would Elrond go all that way in a war just to give it Aragon anyway, and the scouring of the shite is like important and I don't care about your moans about multiple endings.

[Delargey]

Is bearded female dwarves a Tolkien thing? I thought that was a terry pratchett joke because you never heard of dwarves without beards in traditional fantasy so he assumed some of them must have been female?

[Festoon]

10 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

As with everything Silmarillion, there are multiple versions. If anything, Tolkien was moving away from Galadriel being quite so prideful and initially asking for permission to go to Middle Earth, because once again Tolkien was super Catholic and hated his "good" characters outright defying God.

 

The First Age is essentially one long battle. The notable thing about Galadriel is that she doesn't get involved, viewing it as hopeless without the Valar. Her brothers fight and die. In the Second Age, she wanders about a bit and established her own fiefdom but there's no record that she fought in any battles, nor that she was at the Last Alliance. Who is there a record of? Elrond, as Gil Galad's herald.

 

If Galadriel had fought in big battles, Tolkien would have written a twee and somewhat irritating ballad about it. This seems 100% certain. She's powerful but probably more in a "Luthien unleashed her power and the walls fell down" kind of way. I dislike the Hobbit films but that is probably closer.

 

It's a long time since I read them, but I'm really sure Galariel's general arc was that she was just like any other Elven leader until her group came to Lothlorien, whereupon she took on this 'Luthin style power reveals' but had to lay aside the more conventional forceful methods to do it.

 

She definitely was "a ward of Doriath who often went to borders of Doriath to hunt down the enemies" as it's a direct quote from Tolkien and, I dunno, but I'm pretty sure Tolkien's thinking (as I remember it) was the opposite of what you're saying, making her a more involved character in the First Age. 

[Festoon]

7 minutes ago, Delargey said:

Is bearded female dwarves a Tolkien thing? I thought that was a terry pratchett joke because you never heard of dwarves without beards in traditional fantasy so he assumed some of them must have been female?

 

It's both - it's a mystery to the characters in Tolkien's books, so they surmise it, and Pratchett got it from there.

 

"no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..."

[Hanzo the Razor]