The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Sabreman]

I enjoyed GoT, being someone with no attachment to the books, but nothing about it made me want more stories from that world. I'll check it out and see what happens. At least with LotR I'm kind of invested and interested as a whole.

[Festoon]

1 hour ago, Sabreman said:

I enjoyed GoT, being someone with no attachment to the books, but nothing about it made me want more stories from that world. I'll check it out and see what happens. At least with LotR I'm kind of invested and interested as a whole.

 

I fear the GoT show might be made second-guessing fans and just serving up reheated GoT.

[Kevvy Metal]

Come Dúnedain With Me

[Festoon]

Lighthouse cinema in Dublin. Two episodes.

 

https://www.lighthousecinema.ie/film/lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power

[jonamok]

Not sure if already mentioned, but the soundtrack for this is up on Prime Music and no doubt the other usual places, and it's fantastic (at least the first hour of its 2:36 run time is!). Great work by McCreary.

[Captain Kelsten]

I think this looks brilliant. Far better than house of dragons or whatever the GoT prequel is called. 

[Ry]

7 minutes ago, Captain Kelsten said:

I think this looks brilliant. Far better than house of dragons or whatever the GoT prequel is called. 

 

Both look fantastic but are nothing alike to compare imo. 

[Sarlaccfood]

I love LOTR.
 

Why don’t I feel anything when I watch the trailer? 

[Benny]

Because it's very expensive fanfiction.

[Festoon]

32 minutes ago, Sarlaccfood said:

I love LOTR.
 

Why don’t I feel anything when I watch the trailer? 

 

The unsuitable music?

[Sarlaccfood]

1 hour ago, Festoon said:

 

The unsuitable music?

Yeah I think that plays a big part for sure 

[wev]

Me, Myself and Samwise Gamgee

[Mogster]

13 hours ago, Benny said:

Because it's very expensive fanfiction.

I'm not singling you out, but I've seen this view expressed a few times and I'm curious about what makes this different from other shows based on literary works that don't just translate the story to the screen. 

 

Game Of Thrones for instance made a number of changes from the books, and obviously left the source completely behind after it overtook them. Obviously we all know how that turned out, but it was good TV for a long time. Would it matter that it was increasingly just "fan fiction" if it kept up the quality?

 

What about the recent Watchmen TV show? That was 100% "fan fiction", but was fantastic by all accounts so does this matter?

 

Then of course there are countless works drawing on classic myths and legends that take the source material in all sorts of new directions. I'd like to think that Tolkien would approve of his works being used in the same way.

[Benny]

Well, essentially, it's trading on the Lord of the Rings name and "universe" to sell a TV show. The script and everything else is presumably something otherwise entirely original and has nothing really to do with Tolkien's original works, if we're talking about the "soul" of the art. Hence expensive fanfiction. It might turn out to be very good fanfiction, but it's fanfiction nonetheless.

 

If they want to set themselves apart and really do some "mythmaking", I see no reason why it has to be attached to The Lord of the Rings, other than because it's an established brand where people can go "oh, I know what that is".

 

I love The Lord of the Rings books, and the films were adapted about as well as they could be. I otherwise have very little interest in the existence of something just because it has the Lord of The Rings name slapped on it, personally.

[Benny]

As an addendum: there's nothing wrong with enjoying high quality "fanfiction" either, but it doesn't hurt to desire more than that.

 

The comment above about it feeling hollow is most likely borne from that indescribable feeling you get from the gestalt work - the problem with a show like this is it will never be able to recapture that core feeling. It'll come and go, and be hopefully enjoyable while it's on, but what people will continue to talk about is the original work, long after this is forgotten.

[Benny]

26 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Game Of Thrones for instance made a number of changes from the books, and obviously left the source completely behind after it overtook them. Obviously we all know how that turned out, but it was good TV for a long time. Would it matter that it was increasingly just "fan fiction" if it kept up the quality?

 

It's of course telling that it went to shit exactly at the point the show became fanfiction. It was decent adaptation up until that, which was when it was actually good. I would argue that was the exact reason why it couldn't keep up the quality either, because in having to deviate from the work it couldn't reconcile what had been written up to that point in any way with where it decided to go next. The work was unable to take any direction from its own past as it had to recreate what the art itself "meant" for this blank slate.

[Mogster]

1 minute ago, Benny said:

 

It's of course telling that it went to shit exactly at the point the show became fanfiction. It was decent adaptation up until that, which was when it was actually good. I would argue that was the exact reason why it couldn't keep up the quality either, because in having to deviate from the work it couldn't reconcile what had been written up to that point in any way with where it decided to go next. The work was unable to take any direction from its own past as it had to recreate what the art itself "meant" for this blank slate.

The show deviated from the books in smaller ways long before it hit that point, and remained a great show. However, while I agree the showrunners were clearly unable to come up with decent material of their own once the novels ran out, that doesn't mean it had to be that way. I doubt even GRRM knows exactly where his story is going at this point, and there's no reason the show couldn't have taken it somewhere amazing with better showrunners.

[Benny]

Sure, it could have been better, but we only have the finished show as it exists now to reference. Having material to adapt made for a much more internally consistent narrative.

 

That's the point I meant about referring to its own past: any great work understands its own internal narrative "history", and at the point where they started to break away from that completely was where it fell down. Even with the best will in the world, if you go off in a completely different direction from an adaptation, you run the risk of that internal consistency and spirit of the work going out the window.

[Mikes]

Three've been some screening fo the first two eps around the world. Neil Gaiman went to one and was gushing about the show on Twitter. I reckon he'd know something good when he saw it.

 

The new trailer is awesome.  Can't wait to see it.

[Benny]

Neil Gaiman is a hack*

 

Spoiler

Only joking, if he likes it that's probably a good sign.

 

*I read The Chronicles of Amber relatively recently and had to conclude he ripped off loads of it for The Sandman comics

 

[Wiper]

Now I know how my English Lit graduate friends feel when I grumble about Shakespeare being a hack because of how he ripped off e.g. Chaereas and Callirhoe when writing Romeo and Juliet.

 

(Zelazny's great, I wonder if Gaiman's ever openly talked about him as an inspiration?)

 

Re: the actual subject of this topic, I am actually looking forward to this series, fanfiction vibes or no. At least it's unlikely to be as ruinous as the Hobbit adaptation — and at least as pure fanfiction, if it is rubbish it won't taint any of the original books in my memory. You can't imagine how much I don't want Martin Freeman in my mind's eye as I read the Hobbit

[Festoon]

25 minutes ago, Wiper said:

Now I know how my English Lit graduate friends feel when I grumble about Shakespeare being a hack because of how he ripped off e.g. Chaereas and Callirhoe when writing Romeo and Juliet.

 

(Zelazny's great, I wonder if Gaiman's ever openly talked about him as an inspiration?)

 

Re: the actual subject of this topic, I am actually looking forward to this series, fanfiction vibes or no. At least it's unlikely to be as ruinous as the Hobbit adaptation — and at least as pure fanfiction, if it is rubbish it won't taint any of the original books in my memory. You can't imagine how much I don't want Martin Freeman in my mind's eye as I read the Hobbit

 

He's talked about Zelazny as his major inspiration for Sandman since the very start. Mentions him a lot in his intros and credits in the collected editions.

[Festoon]

28 minutes ago, Wiper said:

You can't imagine how much I don't want Martin Freeman in my mind's eye as I read the Hobbit

 

[Benny]

46 minutes ago, Wiper said:

Now I know how my English Lit graduate friends feel when I grumble about Shakespeare being a hack because of how he ripped off e.g. Chaereas and Callirhoe when writing Romeo and Juliet.

 

(Zelazny's great, I wonder if Gaiman's ever openly talked about him as an inspiration?)

 

Re: the actual subject of this topic, I am actually looking forward to this series, fanfiction vibes or no. At least it's unlikely to be as ruinous as the Hobbit adaptation — and at least as pure fanfiction, if it is rubbish it won't taint any of the original books in my memory. You can't imagine how much I don't want Martin Freeman in my mind's eye as I read the Hobbit

 

Ian Holm has been any Baggins in my mind's eye since the BBC Radio 4 adaptation.

[gizmo1990]

1 hour ago, Benny said:

Neil Gaiman is a hack*

 

  Hide contents

Only joking, if he likes it that's probably a good sign.

 

*I read The Chronicles of Amber relatively recently and had to conclude he ripped off loads of it for The Sandman comics

 

The Amber series are the greatest unfilmed books along with Rama, for me. G Martin has long said he's surprised no one has tackled them. Likely because of the cost. You'd need a studio to go all in like new line did with lotr I'd imagine. And those days are long gone.

[Stig]

7 minutes ago, gizmo1990 said:

The Amber series are the greatest unfilmed books along with Rama, for me. G Martin has long said he's surprised no one has tackled them. Likely because of the cost. You'd need a studio to go all in like new line did with lotr I'd imagine. And those days are long gone.

 

Rendezvous with Rama? Denis Villeneuve is set to direct it after Dune Part 2.

[gizmo1990]

1 minute ago, Stigweard said:

 

Rendezvous with Rama? Denis Villeneuve is set to direct it after Dune Part 2.

Yep I know. I have faith in Villeneuve but I'm still approaching it with trepidation!

It just one of those big idea books which really needs everyone to go all in on. Wish Kubrick was around to do it. 

[Nick R]

3 hours ago, Mogster said:

I'm not singling you out, but I've seen this view expressed a few times and I'm curious about what makes this different from other shows based on literary works that don't just translate the story to the screen. 

 

Game Of Thrones for instance made a number of changes from the books, and obviously left the source completely behind after it overtook them. Obviously we all know how that turned out, but it was good TV for a long time. Would it matter that it was increasingly just "fan fiction" if it kept up the quality?

 

What about the recent Watchmen TV show? That was 100% "fan fiction", but was fantastic by all accounts so does this matter?

 

Then of course there are countless works drawing on classic myths and legends that take the source material in all sorts of new directions. I'd like to think that Tolkien would approve of his works being used in the same way.

 

I just read Benny's use of the term fan fiction as a concise way of conveying disapproval. Fanfic is perceived as being below the quality of the works that inspired them, or as missing the point of the original. So if any official adaptation/continuation makes changes that feel "hollow" (as Benny put it above), you dismissively liken it to the unofficial stuff. The implication is: "This may be an 'official' story, but it's worse than a lot of fanfics!"

 

e.g. "The changes that made Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens made to LOTR were generally wise decisions, appropriate to the change in medium. But in The Hobbit, the Kili/Tauriel romance, the molten gold fight with Smaug, and how they presented Radagast? Pure fanfic!"

 

 

With the TV series Watchmen, it depends who you ask. The general reception was that it was a good series. But someone who sides more with Alan Moore's views, and thinks it's unethical for DC to continue profiting from Watchmen after the way he was treated, might dismiss it as fanfic (along with the Before Watchmen comics).

 

 

Game of Thrones is a bit different, because George RR Martin was involved with the TV series to some extent. I know he wrote screenplays for episodes in the early seasons - but how involved was he after the series progressed beyond the novels?

[Capwn]

I've been going down a bit of a rabbit hole with men on youtube ranting about how their beloved LOTR has been ruined by shills/sheeple/liberals etc. Apparently the character of the main female protagonist in the books was pretty weak but in this show  WTF?! she has a sword and acts tough etc. So apparently it's 'Rey Skywalker' all over again, which I don't get as she was a new character? I'm not joking by the way but there are dozens of these videos on youtube. At this point it's not a surprise of course but I find it quite funny in this case, I'm sure they didn't make videos about Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet messing around with Shakespeare's material etc. It's LOTR, come on.

 

 

[jon_cybernet]

50 minutes ago, Capwn said:

I've been going down a bit of a rabbit hole with men on youtube ranting about how their beloved LOTR has been ruined by shills/sheeple/liberals etc. Apparently the character of the main female protagonist in the books was pretty weak but in this show  WTF?! she has a sword and acts tough etc. So apparently it's 'Rey Skywalker' all over again, which I don't get as she was a new character? I'm not joking by the way but there are dozens of these videos on youtube. At this point it's not a surprise of course but I find it quite funny in this case, I'm sure they didn't make videos about Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet messing around with Shakespeare's material etc. It's LOTR, come on.

 

 

 

I mean the fact that Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet came out a decade before YouTube existed might have something to do with it.