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Spelunky 2 - sequel to the actual best game ever


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43 minutes ago, John0 said:

@Tomdominer That video is amazing :lol:. I feel like that's what Spelunky is all about though! To me, the vast majority of that stuff is not bad design or a lack of balance; everything follows the rules. I think the only thing I personally think we could do without is the arrow traps that are at walking height. Might be misremembering but that didn't seem to happen too often in the first one. It's still manageable though and it's taken me a long time to get used to, but I'm at a point where I'm fairly comfortable with the Dwelling and the Jungle now. And I'm certainly don't have amazing reactions or skills or anything. I still think they're probably too tough and they put too many people off, but I wouldn't class this stuff as unfair or bullshit* or whatever.

 

Edit: I guess that should be outright* unfair or bullshit.. some of it definitely it borders it!

 

I agree. I am still undecided whether I just need to "git gud" or the game is too much. Still too early to say, I think.

 

I do think all it would take to make the game more welcoming is some collision box, timing and spawn odds changes. I don't want any of the fundamentals to change, just to make it a little easier and not so demandingly precise. Widen the collider on the player so stomping is easier, widen the rock hit box, so you don't throw it over bat's heads, slow down the whip anim speed and increase whip collider size, half the odds of arrow traps and enemies in pots, increase enemy recovery time, and increase player invulnerability time and I think the game would be much better for me...

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I think your opinion on a lot of this stuff does change as you get more time with it too. Taking the man-trap hidden by scenery example; the first time it happened to me there's no denying it felt very unfair. Despite the fact that I knew that man-traps could appear on that level, and the fact that you can see the difference when the scenery has the man-trap behind it if you look closely enough. The game played by the rules completely, but I remember thinking "what so now I have to look in huge detail at every tiny bit of scenery to check for man-traps 100% of the time?? That's bullshit!" - but now my brain is definitely far more used to them with more experience, and I'm finding I don't have to consciously check, it's beginning to become more automatic. So it's really difficult to say only a week or two after release whether it's realistic for the average experienced player to be able to avoid this kind of stuff without every run being too heavily influenced by luck for it to feel unsatisfying.

 

It is also very skewed by the fact that small changes from Spelunky 1 are SO punishing. Because you're not only learning new stuff you're also *un-training* a lot of small things too. So you sit there going "Stop whipping pots. Stop. Whipping. Pots." over and over. I actually don't mind this too much because to be learning a new Spelunky game after all these years feels so cool! But obviously it's damn infuriating too.

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8 hours ago, Tomdominer said:

 

I agree. I am still undecided whether I just need to "git gud" or the game is too much. Still too early to say, I think.

 

I do think all it would take to make the game more welcoming is some collision box, timing and spawn odds changes. I don't want any of the fundamentals to change, just to make it a little easier and not so demandingly precise. Widen the collider on the player so stomping is easier, widen the rock hit box, so you don't throw it over bat's heads, slow down the whip anim speed and increase whip collider size, half the odds of arrow traps and enemies in pots, increase enemy recovery time, and increase player invulnerability time and I think the game would be much better for me...

I mentioned the lack of player invulnerability being my biggest bugbear, and it still is. I agree with the head-stomping being just a bit too finicky, but the rest I think I'm fine with as I come to grips with it more (and I've honestly not had a problem with the whip speed at all - no more than in the original at least). The "enemies spawning just inside doors" is a proper pain too though.

 

I've not had a vast amount of time to play today, but I'm definitely getting better at the jungle now. I'm spotting the hazards much better, and I've made it to the black market a couple of times too. It feels a bit odd going in to shops in a Spelunky game and actually spending cash for something other than bombs or spiked boots (which are even more useful here than the first game). I was going to say that the "helper" characters you free from the coffins seem genuinely useful (unlike the hired hands in the first game), but then in my last game one went and punched a giant spider I was about to bomb, so they're still massive potential liabilities. I probably will take them with me if I can for now, but will get shot of them if I can see a chance for them to bugger things up.

 

And I had a proper chuckle when I discovered this on a second layer in the jungle:

 

Spoiler

A little shop with a caveman shopkeeper, selling a rock, an arrow, and an urn. Really charming.

 

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19 hours ago, MarkN said:

(and I've honestly not had a problem with the whip speed at all - no more than in the original at least).

 

The only thing I would say to this is that the original whip would linger longer on the end part of the animation, so you could "spear" the enemies with the whip, which, for me was the easiest way to dispatch enemies. Also, the whip collider has less "height", so I am whipping above and below bats quite often. 

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This does seem more akin to a remix or mod than a full blown sequel as it's so similar to Spelunky HD, though I haven't been playing in co-op which I guess is a pretty major addition.

I haven't seen every level yet but I was expecting more from it.

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I'm enjoying this game all told, the only thing that annoys me again and again is the stun time after being hit seems a touch too long. Most run endings I have are due to being stuck on the floor whilst an enemy hits me multiple times. Either that or me voluntarily jumping in lava.

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5 hours ago, Flams said:

I'm enjoying this game all told, the only thing that annoys me again and again is the stun time after being hit seems a touch too long. Most run endings I have are due to being stuck on the floor whilst an enemy hits me multiple times. Either that or me voluntarily jumping in lava.

Yeah, watched my husband lose 9 hearts and die the other day because he got hit once by a Tiki man and his boomerang, then everytime he woke up from unconsciousness he got hit again, and again, and again. I gave up all hope of continuing with this game at that point.

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On 02/10/2020 at 21:48, GamesGamesGames said:

Part 2. I imagine there are spoilers. I imagine it'll be very good.

 

[Eggplant: The Secret Lives of Games] Into the Depths: Spelunky 2 - Part 2 #eggplantTheSecretLivesOfGames 
https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/thespelunkyshowlike/ITDspelunky_ep2.mp3?dest-id=790494

 

Bonus points if you spot the ex-rlmmuker that gets their Daily Challenge story read out :D

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On 03/10/2020 at 17:36, Gabzy said:

Yeah, watched my husband lose 9 hearts and die the other day because he got hit once by a Tiki man and his boomerang, then everytime he woke up from unconsciousness he got hit again, and again, and again. I gave up all hope of continuing with this game at that point.

I once lost 23 hearts on the original when a yeti threw me into a wall, I bounced off and landed at his feet, so he did it again. And again. And again...

 

I will admit that as I'm trying to get to grips with the sequel it does feel more harsh, but stuff like this happened all the time in the original. It's part of the charm. (It just doesn't feel that way when you're just trying to make sense of all the new things, rather than just getting a little careless treading well-worn pathways.)

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DID IT, finally (normal ending, anyway). Honestly the last area felt super-dangerous and I don't understand how all the stuff works there so I was just cautiously safety-bombing my way through it all. Also confused by the exactly how the final boss works but I had lots of sticky bombs and a jetpack and eventually it went down. Obviously might just be getting used to it but I think it's definitely harder than Spelunky 1 - certain specific enemies are always tricky (e.g. the tiki men who can curse you or send that spirit after you, the scorpions, the things that spit ink..) and if they get in a dangerous combination or difficult area it's a nightmare. Even hell in the first game felt manageable if you had resources and were careful. It feels more generous with power-up stuff though (got the jetpack from a dice game, there are always enough altars to get the kapala) so maybe it's just more of a snowball dyanmic and less being able to manage each individual part. Can't imagine doing the last area without bombs and high jump boots/a mount/a jetpack.

 

 

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I got to the penultimate shortcut requirement a while back, the one where you have to deliver

Spoiler

a hired hand

and since then I've just felt like I can't really be arsed :lol:. It's stupid really because the shortcuts barely got used in the first one, only really a few times to get to grips with each area's unique stuff then never again.

 

I think it's entirely possible I've just burned myself out though, going straight in from grinding away on a hell run in the first without a break inbetween. I'll definitely be back at some point.

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2 hours ago, Rsdio said:

I got to the penultimate shortcut requirement a while back, the one where you have to deliver

  Hide contents

a hired hand

and since then I've just felt like I can't really be arsed :lol:. It's stupid really because the shortcuts barely got used in the first one, only really a few times to get to grips with each area's unique stuff then never again.

 

I think it's entirely possible I've just burned myself out though, going straight in from grinding away on a hell run in the first without a break inbetween. I'll definitely be back at some point.

I know what you mean, sometimes I'll have 3 or 4 runs in a row end in just some teeth-grindingly stupid way and think 'is this fun? Am I enjoying this?'

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2 hours ago, Rsdio said:

I got to the penultimate shortcut requirement a while back, the one where you have to deliver

  Hide contents

a hired hand

and since then I've just felt like I can't really be arsed :lol:. It's stupid really because the shortcuts barely got used in the first one, only really a few times to get to grips with each area's unique stuff then never again.

I almost gave up on that too, but it turned out to be easier than I realised.

 

Spoiler

If you pick him up at the start of each level, drop him somewhere safe then run away, he goes to sleep and you only have to get to the exit. He'll then join you again on the next level. It seemed to work every time.

 

Still, I have given up anyway now. I wasn't really enjoying it much.

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Cheers, I had tried both of those approaches!

 

Spoiler

The fish can really take a beating so if you start in that area you either need to get lucky with a load of bombs and/or a shotgun. The four bombs you start with didn't seem to be enough and trying to finish him off with the whip didn't go super well.

 

The one time I tried setting the hired hands to sleep they kept being awoken so the thought of making it through that many stages without it happening didn't seem that appealing but maybe I was doing something wrong or just getting unlucky. I'll give that another try when I muster the energy again.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Went back to this today and managed the last couple of shortcut tasks which I kind of felt like I wanted to get done before taking bit of a Spelunky break.

 

Starting in the

Spoiler

ice caves and getting through the reggae yetis is rough. Maybe feels worse than starting in the temple did at first in 1.

 

I've at least seen what I assume is the 'normal' final boss too! Not being tooled up in any way I had absolutely no idea what I was doing.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, supposedly they've tweaked the first area a bit now as well though I can't say that it feels super different to me.

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37 minutes ago, Rsdio said:

Went back to this today and managed the last couple of shortcut tasks which I kind of felt like I wanted to get done before taking bit of a Spelunky break.

 

Starting in the

  Reveal hidden contents

ice caves and getting through the reggae yetis is rough. Maybe feels worse than starting in the temple did at first in 1.

 

I've at least seen what I assume is the 'normal' final boss too! Not being tooled up in any way I had absolutely no idea what I was doing.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, supposedly they've tweaked the first area a bit now as well though I can't say that it feels super different to me.


Tweaked in what way?

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I'm sticking with it, but do have a love hate relationship with it. (Every session tends to end with me saying "oh fuck off...") I hate the shotgun recoil pushing you off a rope - the game is asking me to unlearn a valid tactic from the prequel that I've used for hundreds of hours. A really trivial one is that thrown objects carry other throwable objects with them - it's doing my nut in, and adds nothing to the game other than unpredictability. (The cavemen tripping over items is a really minor niggle but again adds nothing to the game at all other than unpredictability - it can fuck right off.) I'm also finding myself stuck in dead-end situations where I haven't got the kit to continue much more often, even though I buy much more stuff than I ever used to (or where I'm dying by shooting an enemy that absolutely has to be killed to make progress and then falling off a rope into lava or spikes, because of the new shotgun recoil). The lava can do one too - far too persistent and annoying even if you whip it, and those fucking lava frogs are just a pain in the arse if you haven't the means to destroy the lava pool.

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4 minutes ago, kempstar said:


Tweaked in what way?

Enemy population. I'm guessing fewer moles from the feel of it, thus far. They're working on adding more variety to 1-4 too.

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13 minutes ago, MarkN said:

Enemy population. I'm guessing fewer moles from the feel of it, thus far. They're working on adding more variety to 1-4 too.


Thanks. Ive long given up on it unfortunately, but if they improve the balance a bit (well, a lot) I might start playing again.

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Yeah, the shotgun/rope thing 'makes sense' but it's one of those things that feels like change just for the sake of it. Maybe the shotgun was a tad OP in the first but you spend enough time being super careful in these games that the power trips feel earned.

 

I don't know if they've changed some other stuff or if I just got lucky but I didn't have anywhere near as many of those dead-end situations today for some reason. They'd been one of my main moans, in the first there was pretty much always a way out of a situation and a route to the exit that was theoretically possible without bombs/ropes/fall damage (unless you'd fucked that up for yourself by being careless, at least). I've had no choice but to suicide quite a few times in this.

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It is being patched on a daily basis right now. I wonder if they're planning on doing this for the foreseeable future until they get it right. Doesn't sit well with me, since I'm only good at the first one through spending years learning how it worked. (I have nasty flashbacks to Dead Cells, which basically became an entirely different game with one update, and I never played it again afterward because nothing I'd learnt worked any more. I'd hope they wouldn't be that heavy-handed.)

 

Regardless, if this is the case, I'd rather stop playing now, and get back to it in a few years time, when it knows what it is. The imbalances I've felt just make it seem like it's not finished yet. I'll probably keep poking away at it for now, but I'll probably only git gud by about 2025, I reckon.

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It does have a bit of an 'early access' vibe to it right now, I guess I've not been playing it super regularly but I can't remember seeing update notifications for something literally every time I start it up before.

 

It is weird for these sorts of games, but the state of flux aspect is kind of interesting too. Like, I had a winning Dead Cells run in.. August 2018, apparently. But finishing the game means basically nothing for the purposes of discussion if somebody else finished it a couple of patches earlier or later because the balance could be totally different.. The Dead Cells one person finishes probably isn't the same one somebody else did, even within 'normal' roguelike parameters, unless you wait until years after release.

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It makes sense. The first one was also honed to perfection during a long period. Its the kind of game where only playing it with a large number of people will generate the feedback necessary to balance it properly. 

 

If you're someone who going to play this for hundreds of hours it makes sense to wait a bit now until all the big changes have been made. 

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Somehow I've gone back to this again. I think the recent patches might have helped because it feels slightly easier now, and more varied. I'm getting further more often and most deaths don't seem quite so harsh.

 

It's more fun.

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