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Joker origin film - Joaquin Phoenix Confirmed

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2 minutes ago, Stevie said:

 

 

No, I do not. Unless I'm deluded, the reporter asked Phoenix if people with mental health problems might be inspired to commit crimes after watching Joker. 

 

There you go. Answered your own question.

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I haven't seen the interview, but when I heard about that question and the walk out I assumed the interviewer meant right-wing domestic terrorists, like the one who dressed up as the Joker and shot up a cinema full of people. 

 

Was that not what was being inferred?

 

Also, the Joker character has been hijacked by the alt right / incels / gamergaters. I guess it's a case of life imitating art (and in the process perverting it), and I suppose there's an interesting debate around whether new art in this space is imitating that situation, or whether it might further (intentionally or unintentionally) influence horrible people to do horrible stuff.

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52 minutes ago, NickC said:

I haven't seen the interview, but when I heard about that question and the walk out I assumed the interviewer meant right-wing domestic terrorists, like the one who dressed up as the Joker and shot up a cinema. 

 

Was that not what was being inferred?

 

The Joker character has been hijacked by the alt right / incels / gamergaters. I guess it's a case of life imitating art (and in the process perverting it), and I suppose there's an interesting debate around whether new art in this space is imitating life, or whether it might further (intentionally or unintentionally) influence horrible people to do horrible stuff.

 

Yep, and it's plainly obvious, and a fair enough question.

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Festoon, I think you should clarify what you mean by a "certain type."

 

No-one asked Daniel Day Lewis if There Will be Blood would inspire "certain types" to bludgeon priests with bowling pins. 

 

Movies, music, and games have been blamed for society's ills for half a century (books even longer!). A Clockwork Orange was blamed for all manner of crimes in the UK when it was released, but it was all fucking nonsense. It was just the media latching on to the latest fad to sell newspapers. This situation with Joker is no different. Phoenix just handled it badly, and I bet the journalist was rubbing his fucking hands after Phoenix walked out. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

Festoon, I think you should clarify what you mean by a "certain type."

 

No-one asked Daniel Day Lewis if There Will be Blood would inspire "certain types" to bludgeon priests with bowling pins. 

 

Movies, music, and games have been blamed for society's ills for half a century (books even longer!). A Clockwork Orange was blamed for all manner of crimes in the UK when it was released, but it was all fucking nonsense. It was just the media latching on to the latest fad to sell newspapers. This situation with Joker is no different. Phoenix just handled it badly, and I bet the journalist was rubbing his fucking hands after Phoenix walked out. 

 

 

 

It's simply ludricous to not expect this question would be asked, regardless of whether any of us subscribe to it, or whether the journalist was looking for trouble, in a situation where a clown-attired dickbag shot up a cinema a few years ago. Ludricous not to expect it.

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15 minutes ago, Festoon said:

 

It's simply ludricous to not expect this question would be asked, regardless of whether any of us subscribe to it, or whether the journalist was looking for trouble, in a situation where a clown-attired dickbag shot up a cinema a few years ago. Ludricous not to expect it.

Except the shooter never dressed up as a clown. Why is that right wing lie now being adopted by the left?

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Asking to define a certain type feels very disingenuous here, unless you happen to live under a rock and have missed all the incidents of mass shootings committed by alienated young men who have found solace with certain groups.

 

Now none of us know what the film actually contains but the trailer really suggests shows an outsider driven to become the joker, and seek his revenge on the world, by his alienation and treatment. Even if the film is a condemnation of what he becomes there will be people who misinterpret it.  Is the film going to be the trigger for anything, I doubt it there’s already plenty of proven avenues of radicalisation of alienated young men, but to make a film like that (and I assume it’s like that because otherwise why ask the question) without thinking you’d get questions like that is naive.  At least have a prepared answer or deflection.

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14 hours ago, NickC said:

I haven't seen the interview, but when I heard about that question and the walk out I assumed the interviewer meant right-wing domestic terrorists, like the one who dressed up as the Joker and shot up a cinema full of people. 

 

Was that not what was being inferred?

 

Also, the Joker character has been hijacked by the alt right / incels / gamergaters. I guess it's a case of life imitating art (and in the process perverting it), and I suppose there's an interesting debate around whether new art in this space is imitating that situation, or whether it might further (intentionally or unintentionally) influence horrible people to do horrible stuff.

 

spacer.png

 

(shamelessly lifted from reddit)

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20 minutes ago, The Bag said:

Asking to define a certain type feels very disingenuous here, unless you happen to live under a rock and have missed all the incidents of mass shootings committed by alienated young men who have found solace with certain groups.

Oh you are absolutely right. I really should consider the thoughts and feelings of the incels. :coffee:

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1 hour ago, Chadruharazzeb said:

I wonder how many times they asked Christian Bale if he was worried about inspiring mass vigilantism? 

 

The Dark Knight starts by dealing with this exact question., but yeah, I'm sure no-one did. Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been a good idea to - it's been a criticism of Batman that's been noticed since The Killing Joke so it's a valid question.

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16 hours ago, therearerules said:

I mean, imagine reading this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Holmes_(mass_murderer) and thinking the issue was the movie playing.

 

For some reason I recalled that he was dressed as the Joker during that massacre. Guess it's just that he had bright coloured hair, somehow that combined with the film playing made a mental connection in my mind.

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1 hour ago, NickC said:

 

For some reason I recalled that he was dressed as the Joker during that massacre. Guess it's just that he had bright coloured hair, somehow that combined with the film playing made a mental connection in my mind.

A lot of the tabloids and rolling news coverage also referred to him dressing as a clown at the time.

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Robbie Collins is fine, I think he was just curious to hear a response to a view that has become quite popular regarding this film. Was probably hoping Phoenix would shut down those views in a classy way. Perhaps Robbie just worded it badly.

 

I do think Phoenix's response on his return, saying that this was the first time he heard such a view was bogus. Surely he's heard/read somewhere about that particular point of view on his film?

 

Anyway, I just want to see it myself and make my own mind up. 

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It seems naive to argue that a single film could influence people to commit crimes, or at least, that a single film would be the tipping point between committing a crime and not bothering, but at the same time, it seems equally naive to argue that films don't influence people. Look at all those losers who misunderstood the Matrix, and turned the idea of taking the red pill into some kind of MRA call to arms. If you make a film about a marginalised white loser who tries to get revenge on his tormentors by committing some kind of horrific act of mass violence - which I (possibly erroneously) assume is the general plot of Joker - then it does seem at least plausible that those same marginalised white losers might misunderstand the intent of your film. Lone shooters are all about mythology, and fulflling the role of the lone shooter who gets revenge on a society that hates him. They all post manifestos before committing their crimes - not because they have anything interesting or unique to say (they're all the same) but because posting a manifesto is what lone white mass murderers do. The lone white shooter is an archetype, built up from media portrayals of lone white shooters. Nobody's going to kill anyone just because of Joker, but I'd say there's a (small) risk of people taking its imagery and reusing it in ways that the filmmakers might not have anticipated.

 

A better question might have been to ask how the filmmakers feel about their film potentially becoming part of lone shooter mythology.

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32 minutes ago, Capwn said:

Anyway, I just want to see it myself and make my own mind up. 

 

Come on Capwn you know that's not how Films are viewed anymore. We all make up a decision on if a film's good or bad based on other peoples reactions.

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5 hours ago, K said:

It seems naive to argue that a single film could influence people to commit crimes, or at least, that a single film would be the tipping point between committing a crime and not bothering, but at the same time, it seems equally naive to argue that films don't influence people. Look at all those losers who misunderstood the Matrix, and turned the idea of taking the red pill into some kind of MRA call to arms. If you make a film about a marginalised white loser who tries to get revenge on his tormentors by committing some kind of horrific act of mass violence - which I (possibly erroneously) assume is the general plot of Joker - then it does seem at least plausible that those same marginalised white losers might misunderstand the intent of your film. Lone shooters are all about mythology, and fulflling the role of the lone shooter who gets revenge on a society that hates him. They all post manifestos before committing their crimes - not because they have anything interesting or unique to say (they're all the same) but because posting a manifesto is what lone white mass murderers do. The lone white shooter is an archetype, built up from media portrayals of lone white shooters. Nobody's going to kill anyone just because of Joker, but I'd say there's a (small) risk of people taking its imagery and reusing it in ways that the filmmakers might not have anticipated.

 

A better question might have been to ask how the filmmakers feel about their film potentially becoming part of lone shooter mythology.

 

Yes, totally, but these questions always seem to detract from the larger social problems that are actually the cause.

 

I don't know what kind of meaningful, or useful, answer a filmmaker can realistically give to that question.

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10 hours ago, Delargey said:

 

Yes, totally, but these questions always seem to detract from the larger social problems that are actually the cause.

 

I don't know what kind of meaningful, or useful, answer a filmmaker can realistically give to that question.

 

I dunno, given the subject of the film, I would be surprised if the filmmakers hadn't thought about this quite a lot. They shouldn't be expected to solve the problems, but I would have thought they would have something interesting to say on the subject.

 

(Admittedly probably not to the question around whether or not the film will inspire copycat crimes, which is hacky and unfair).

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On 22/09/2019 at 09:39, And said:

 

spacer.png

 

(shamelessly lifted from reddit)

 

The Impractical Jokers have let themselves go

 

 

Quote

Scoop: DoD has issued a warning to U.S. service members about a potential mass shooting at screenings of the film Joker, telling moviegoers to "run, hide, fight

 

You'd think the people who run the fucking army would have more detailed advice that run, hide, fight!!!

 

FIGHT

WIN

PREVAIL

 

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