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17 hours ago, beenabadbunny said:

I was really pleased with this race tonight at Dragon Trail.

 

 

Nothing objectively fancy (started 13th, finished 12th) but the reason it was exciting for me is that I had this guy Sylenzo breathing right down my neck for the whole race and I didn’t crack. He was huge in my mirrors all the way to the end but I kept him behind me.
 

Watching it back I realise just how much you can (and I do) abuse the chicane of death. I don’t think I took it clean even once in the four laps but didn’t get pinged for it. Sylenzo could probably be justifiably cross about that! 


Probably would have been a place or two higher if I hadn’t outbraked myself into the hairpin on lap 1 and put it in the wall :facepalm:

I had a wee watch of this and I'm not sure if the replay is totally accurate but I noticed your changing up really early, you can (more so in higher gears) let it run on, this will allow you to be in the powerband when you get the next gear if you take the F1 car your at the top of the revs for ages. Your the only person I'm able to beat so maybe I shouldn't tell you that :)

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18 hours ago, beenabadbunny said:

I was really pleased with this race tonight at Dragon Trail.

 

 

Nothing objectively fancy (started 13th, finished 12th) but the reason it was exciting for me is that I had this guy Sylenzo breathing right down my neck for the whole race and I didn’t crack. He was huge in my mirrors all the way to the end but I kept him behind me.
 

Watching it back I realise just how much you can (and I do) abuse the chicane of death. I don’t think I took it clean even once in the four laps but didn’t get pinged for it. Sylenzo could probably be justifiably cross about that! 


Probably would have been a place or two higher if I hadn’t outbraked myself into the hairpin on lap 1 and put it in the wall :facepalm:

 

Nice race, I enjoyed watching that back.  I still panic a little too much when someone is close, and would have bottled it before the end!

When I was looking last night, the top 10 times on the board were all in either the Viper (right in front of you) or the McLaren too, so you might be loosing a bit with the Megane, though of course, don't underestimate the bonus of familiarity with the car.

 

Chicane wise, you're doing what everyone would be doing.  Time trialing, and I guess racing in general is always going to be about pushing as much as you can get away with.  No penalties means all over the kerbs until the car breaks, we see it in F1 all the time.  Watch this from Indycar last year, at COTA.  They ran the race with no track limits, this happened each and every lap!

 

 

The only thing you want to do is brake earlier, abuse the entrance kerb, and on the exit kerb, try not to push into the red bit as this happens:

 

8 hours ago, beenabadbunny said:

lap3.thumb.png.31a75f08e545917100d05dbbabcb5d6a.png

 

and you want 4 wheels on the road.  If you were running faster, you'd be into the wall, which of course slows you down.

 

22 minutes ago, davadvice1 said:

I had a wee watch of this and I'm not sure if the replay is totally accurate but I noticed your changing up really early, you can (more so in higher gears) let it run on, this will allow you to be in the powerband when you get the next gear if you take the F1 car your at the top of the revs for ages. Your the only person I'm able to beat so maybe I shouldn't tell you that :)

 

I noticed this too.  Basically, I think you want to shift as it starts to flash (probably immediately before, as flashing usually means bouncing off the limiter, which means you've pushed too far) but in the blue.  Oddly enough, in the Lewis Hamilton time trials, from the start on a long straight like Suzuka, I can get ahead of his time as it seems to me that he changes too late, and it bounces off the limiter (we're talking 0.06 seconds of course!)

 

The other think I noticed, and it might be the Megane as I've been using the NSX and have never driven the Megane, but at the top of the circuit, the easy right bend before the heavy braking right corner that starts the decent, you should be able to carry more speed / slight lift on entry / take more kerb and manage flat rather than braking.

 

 

 

 

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Cheers chaps, all makes sense. Will try it in a few different cars this week if I get time. Went with the Mégane because it’s what I had used at Bathurst the night before and I found it quite comfortable/predictable to drive. 

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I find using the engine noise a better way to know when to change.

 

I'm watched a replay of the daily and kept thinking that's cheating but I'm always too conservative when attacking then and this track shows it massively.

 

 

Did you and Joe get some time on Monday for some mentoring?

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There are some exceptions. The Gr3 Corvette peaks well below the redline, so you're actually best off shifting up when the bar is level with the RHS of he gear indicator (when it's flashing is too late).

 

Also short-shifting (shifting a bit earlier) is a good way to save fuel in this game. Useful in this week's Race C ;) I made several places in the pits thanks to using the Corvette and short-shifting when I didn't need max power.

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After ordering my racing setup (first ever wheel!) I will finally be able to play with you guys. Will need to get grinding single player and get some cars :)

 

It's going to be weird having to learn manual gears lol. In my 30 odd years playing racing games I have always been automatic. And I don't drive in real life (not allowed l, sight issue) so I don't have experience. 

 

Probably be a couple weeks until I can play though. Doesn't arrive until Tuesday and I won't be at home the Monday after :(

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14 minutes ago, Ry said:

After ordering my racing setup (first ever wheel!) I will finally be able to play with you guys. Will need to get grinding single player and get some cars :)

 

It's going to be weird having to learn manual gears lol. In my 30 odd years playing racing games I have always been automatic. And I don't drive in real life (not allowed l, sight issue) so I don't have experience. 

 

Probably be a couple weeks until I can play though. Doesn't arrive until Tuesday and I won't be at home the Monday after :(

 

Welcome to the Monday Night Racing Club!

 

The grind shouldn't be that big for you, doing some Driving School, Mission Challenge and Circuit Experience will net you a good number of cars and credits.

There's a relatively small list of cars and classes we often use, most of which are affordable.

Also, signing a manufacturer contract of choice in the game will get you free loaner Gr.4 and Gr.3 cars :)

 

We'll be happy to share some tips on shifting manual gears as you come on, of course.

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Try the 993 on Race A for some more sideways fun. When you get in another RWD car afterwards you feel like superman. A bit like when you go in a cold plunge pool, then get back in the main swimming pool afterwards and it feels like a hot bath.

 

Except the Gr3 GT-R, I cannot drive that thing. I love the 'vette, the R8 and other sideways ones, but the GT-R makes no sense it just goes sideways randomly.

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I’m debating buying a wheel, probably a T150 because I can’t see anywhere with the G29 in stock. At a push I can probably afford a stand too, but I’m just wondering whether anyone just clamps their wheel to a desk? I’m a little concerned that the pedals will be a pain to use without a full seat etc.

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32 minutes ago, Jashin said:

I’m debating buying a wheel, probably a T150 because I can’t see anywhere with the G29 in stock. At a push I can probably afford a stand too, but I’m just wondering whether anyone just clamps their wheel to a desk? I’m a little concerned that the pedals will be a pain to use without a full seat etc.

I can't recommend a stand enough tbh. I got a wheel stand pro for my G29 and being able to adjust the height, angle to the pedals etc and also bring it in and out of the living room is essential to me. 

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The desktop should take the wheel just fine. As you've surmised, it's all about the pedals. You need to know they absolutely will not move an inch in any direction, which in practice means bolting them to something from underneath.

 

Someone in the racing wheel thread cannibalised his desk's keyboard tray to mount his pedals, IIRC.

 

Edited to add: it was @davejm in the Sim Racing thread.

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i use my wheel clamped to a desk, it's fine, and G25 pedals are fine on carpet too, but yeah you might have trouble braking with the G29 ones as i think the brake pedal needs more force so they might move around more, and yeah for the basic thrustmaster pedals you'll definitely want to try and keep them still somehow (i did use them on carpet so it's possible but they're very light and tip over and move about a lot so it's not a great plan).

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1 hour ago, Jashin said:

I’m debating buying a wheel, probably a T150 because I can’t see anywhere with the G29 in stock. At a push I can probably afford a stand too, but I’m just wondering whether anyone just clamps their wheel to a desk? I’m a little concerned that the pedals will be a pain to use without a full seat etc.

 

I've got a T150 and it's a good wheel. One day I'll probably buy a T300 but I'd need to find it at a very attractive price.

 

I did recently upgrade from the standard two-pedal set to the T3PA three-pedal set (bundled as 'T150 Pro') and I really do recommend that upgrade, if money and availability both allow. The basic pedals are fine to get going with, to be fair, there's just not much feel to the brake pedal. Apparently you can greatly improve them by inserting a squash ball underneath the pedal to provide some firmer resistance...

 

Anyway there's a racing wheel thread :lol:

 

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1 hour ago, beenabadbunny said:

 

I've got a T150 and it's a good wheel. One day I'll probably buy a T300 but I'd need to find it at a very attractive price.

 

I did recently upgrade from the standard two-pedal set to the T3PA three-pedal set (bundled as 'T150 Pro') and I really do recommend that upgrade, if money and availability both allow. The basic pedals are fine to get going with, to be fair, there's just not much feel to the brake pedal. Apparently you can greatly improve them by inserting a squash ball underneath the pedal to provide some firmer resistance...

 

Anyway there's a racing wheel thread :lol:

 

 

That pedal upgrade is the point where I put the pad down, the stock t150 pedals are absolute tosh imo.

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I use them they're fine, you just need a moment to get used to a soft brake pedal with travel rather than a hard pedal with force :) Though mine came with T-300 I think the only difference is metal footplates.

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4 hours ago, beenabadbunny said:

Here's a handy link that won't embed, but should let you watch both videos simultaneously: 

https://viewsync.net/watch?v=ymAjRoJb9Ik&t=0.53&v=56ybzU46oPo&t=0

I'm really appreciating all this feedback. Every day is a learning day. 

 

View sync is quite cool, plenty of features too.

 

Do you drive with in car view?

I ask as it seems you're better at using the full width of the track on the left of the car than on the right of the car, might just be coincidence though.

 

Not seeing anything immediately obvious to discuss, keep practicing, push, hit walls, learn...

 

Actually, I'm going to mention too much throttle / on the throttle too early / not braking enough.

Also, I might be talking crap here, remember I'm somewhere between you and the fast guys :lol:

3 parts of this track gain you loads of time due to long straights.

Turn 2 (heavy braking left turn / elongated chicane).

Left turn, the first of the downhill S bends.

Last braking corner / bottom left of the map before coming up the hill to the start line.

 

On some of your laps, at all 3, you entered too quickly or turn too late.  All 3 need good exit speed as they then go through long flat out sections.

For the S bends, your entry on lap 1 looked good, but you either carried too much speed, or turned in too late for the 2nd and 3rd corners which caused you to lift on the 2nd left (though you lifted too early as there was more track to run the car our to the kerb).  You want to get the car onto the kerbs through each bend and carry speed through.

Lap 2 - at 3.23  you didn't slow enough and missed the apex of the first left bend.  At 3.28 you get back on the throttle, then you slow the car through the corner, with about 50% throttle, again missing the apex. 

If you kept off the throttle at 3.28, and allowed the nose of the car to pull back into the apex of the right hander, you'd be able to get on the throttle earlier (when you were at 50%) and you'd be further right, setting you up for the following left hander. 

The trick is to have more speed on the way out of the corner, not the way in.  Slow in, fast out.

If you'd slowed more for the initial left at 3.23, you could get to the apex for all 3 corners.

In the NSX (still not used the Viper, but I assume it's the same), you can take the whole S bend section flat, and each time you lift mid corner, you loose a chunk speed and therefore time as you reach the bottom of the hill.  I've watched cars pull away from me at the 1st curve and been clean past them by the braking zone at the bottom as they are just pushing the nose wide, lifting off..

Lap 4 - 7.10 it's even more pronounced.  Too deep into the first left, then lifting off in the right and loosing out to the Lexus.

 

7.30 though was just class though.  See the chance, brake a little less, run deep into the corner and fix it on the exit.  Watch the Pug behind bash into the Lexus and demonstrate how not to do it too.  If the Lexus got a clean exit, they'd switch back and you'd potentially be side by side into the first chicane, it's always fun waiting to see if the other driver will lift out :unsure:

 

Last corner: 4.10

I like this line through the corner but you need to be over further to the left before turn in to straighten the corner out a bit more, then onto the kerb and accelerate out.

Lap 3 - 6.10

You get on the throttle too early, then have to back off / hesitate as you accelerate out.  If you'd either braked more, or just coasted in a bit, letting the nose of the car turn in closer to the kerb, you could stay on the throttle and carry more speed.

Lap 4 - 8.00

I think you see that VW and again jump on the throttle too early.  That's where I've done most of my overtaking during this race.  Keep off the throttle or trail brake longer to bring the car into the kerb, then accelerate basically alongside the VW and see who gets to the line first - providing they don't push you over....

 

Someone else make sure I'm not feeding Bunny crap please :D

 

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That's amazing dude, thanks so much! 

 

1 hour ago, Freeman said:

Do you drive with in car view?

I ask as it seems you're better at using the full width of the track on the left of the car than on the right of the car, might just be coincidence though.

 

 

I do. Cockpit view, always. 

 

That's actually a very good point about judging the width of the car. Bit of an aside, I don't know if you remember but when we last raced in Group C cars I wondered out loud why they all seemed to be RHD, even the European makes like Porsche which you might expect to be LHD.

 

1766984511_HDK386.thumb.jpg.6cccb900aa26004fc395fca43ed2326a.jpg

 

No one knew but I went and looked it up afterwards and it turns out it was literally just that the Circuit de la Sarthe has more right turns than lefts, and as it's easier to hit the apex on the driver's side, that's where they put the seat. I can't find it now but one race driver said turning to the 'wrong' side probably costs a tenth or two per corner. 

 

Anyway :)

 

I rewatched the Viewsync video on the big screen with your notes in front of me on my iPad and I can really see what you mean about each of the points you've pulled up. 

 

Definitely one common thing is getting on the throttle too early on corner exit. I've been consciously trying to avoid doing that after reading this particular tip (and relatedly this one) but clearly it's not exactly coming naturally to me yet. I'm also simultaneously trying to learn to lift my eyeline and look at the correct place on the road, and to be in the right gear, and to know where the traffic is, etc etc. 

 

I enjoyed the pass down the inside on the final lap. As you say, I saw the chance, went for it and got lucky. I fully expected the orange car to retake the place on the cutback but I knew that so late in the race I had very little to lose. I didn't anticipate there'd be contact behind me and that's what kept me the place. (thatsracing.gif) :lol:

 

One sketchy moment you didn't comment on was after the chicane on lap 2 (about 4:00 in the videos). I went through the chicane very hot and took a lot more speed through than the black-and-white spotted car, but just not quite enough to get down the outside of him before he closed the door. Lost some paint but just about got away with it - but there's probably a lesson to learn about not driving into a closing gap, or something. 

 

 

 

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Jonathan try using the classic Gran Turismo bumper cam, will make it so much easier to judge and the sense of speed brings it to life. 
 Also Freeman is right, and I’ve seen you say it yourself - coming off the brakes smoothly, keeping the car settled and hitting an apex to get on the gas early is how this game wants to be played. The other week when Simon was live coaching you he said about using the full width of the track - abusing kerbs like Death Chicane and Casio Triangle will give you seconds of saved lap time.

 

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7 hours ago, Junker said:

Jonathan try using the classic Gran Turismo bumper cam, will make it so much easier to judge and the sense of speed brings it to life. 

 


Funnily enough it’s the opposite in my experience. I used to use the bumper camera but I got a lot quicker (like seconds per lap immediately) when I switched to cockpit view. It just works for my brain, I guess. 
 

Might try it again now that I’ve learned a few more things. Doesn’t cost anything to try, after all.
 

A bigger issue is course familiarity, I think. It’s all very well being able to tell where the car is right now, but obviously you also need to know exactly where it will need to be several corners ahead, and drive in anticipation to put it there. I’m sure I’m still reacting far too much.
 

(I tried turning the driving line and braking cones back on, as @Varnsen suggested, but I have turned them back off again. Superficially they seem to help in the short term of course but I’ve found that with them on, I don’t actually seem to learn what’s coming up. I just react to the cues.

 

If you could turn suggested gear off I would. Or if you can and I just don’t know, someone please tell me!) 

 

As far as using the full width, I think the issue for me there is that my basic car control skills aren’t consistent enough. So I’m not reliably confident enough to go right out to the edge, especially in higher-speed corners. If you err on the safe side, yes you bleed off too much speed and lose time, but if you err to the outside and spin, that’s far more costly to your race.
 

I’m sure you’ve all seen me fall off in Monday night races, usually early on while I’m still close together with you all (especially if we’ve done reverse grid or similar, so I’m starting at the front).

 

 

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Suggested gear is a funny one, as it tends to suggest to me you should be in the gear above it. There are a few exceptions where I'll go down to the suggested gear very late into a corner to gain the maximum poke coming out of it.

 

These wayward handling porsche's in the daily race A are a great point to start if you want to get on terms with how to handle any car. The reason I say that is that they simply want to spin on their own axis with minimal input from the driver. When you then get to something that is faster, has a bit of aero, and handles they are so much easier to drive. Somewhere like Fuji is all about getting that power down past the apex/cone, and in the porsche you want it pointing in a straight line with the power down as soon as is possible.

 

@Junker is also correct about using all the track. Let the car 'wash out to the corner' and I quote those words from the lady that had to suffer my skills in an F355 round Thruxton years ago.

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1 hour ago, marsh said:

Let the car 'wash out to the corner'

 

I think they teach that line at Track Instructor School - that's exactly what the guy told me in the Atom around Brands :)

 

The other line that's stuck with me was Jackie Stewart when he was teaching James May to drive faster on an episode of Top Gear: "You never press the gas pedal until you know you'll never have to take it off".  I find myself doing that all too often (everyone says GT is all about getting the power on early) - I have a little Scottish voice telling me off in my head when it happens...  Here's the segment: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o54o2

 

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2 hours ago, marsh said:

Suggested gear is a funny one, as it tends to suggest to me you should be in the gear above it. There are a few exceptions where I'll go down to the suggested gear very late into a corner to gain the maximum poke coming out of it.

 

I've always liked the suggested gear indicator in GT because of what you say. When it tells you to take a corner in 3rd gear, 8/10 times you're better of selecting 4th.

 

Still, when the gear suggestion flashes, that's often a good reference point for your braking point so it can be used for that, too. Sneaky way of having some extra help on tracks you don't know well.

 

56 minutes ago, fretnoise said:

The other line that's stuck with me was Jackie Stewart when he was teaching James May to drive faster on an episode of Top Gear: "You never press the gas pedal until you know you'll never have to take it off".  I find myself doing that all too often (everyone says GT is all about getting the power on early) - I have a little Scottish voice telling me off in my head when it happens...  Here's the segment: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o54o2

 

This is very much true, a school of thought Rudy van Buren reiterated when I was in his sim once. You'll still brake before/into a corner (trail braking depending), but in a lot of modern race cars pro drivers will let the car roll more than you think before getting on the power.

 

Rudy let me drive on Brands Hatch GP in a Mercedes-AMG GT GT3 to experience this, especially in T4 (the tightening then opening left-hander leading to the back straight). I can hear his voice in my head there as I try to trail brake towards the apex, let it roll and wait an additional half a second or so before getting on the power :)

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Bunny, where are you looking when you’re driving? Once you’ve spotted your braking point you should be looking at the apex of the corner and once you’ve lined up with that you should look at your exit point. This should help you make one sweep of the steering wheel to get around the corner using the full width of the track. If you can make sure you’re looking in the right place, it will generally improve your driving around the whole lap rather than trying to correct one thing for one corner at a time. 

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2 hours ago, beenabadbunny said:

(I tried turning the driving line and braking cones back on, as @Varnsen suggested, but I have turned them back off again. Superficially they seem to help in the short term of course but I’ve found that with them on, I don’t actually seem to learn what’s coming up. I just react to the cues.

 

As far as using the full width, I think the issue for me there is that my basic car control skills aren’t consistent enough. So I’m not reliably confident enough to go right out to the edge, especially in higher-speed corners. If you err on the safe side, yes you bleed off too much speed and lose time, but if you err to the outside and spin, that’s far more costly to your race.

 

Well, that's kinda the point. You turn on more assists and gradually turn them off as you no longer need them. 

 

Like, racing line, maybe three laps, just to get an idea of where to vaguely position the car. Your driving style and the car will dictate the finer points of the driving line as you get familiar.

 

I'd leave the braking cones on a bit longer though just so you can concentrate not *when* to brake but rather how. Focus on either trail braking, little dabs on the brakes, finding the brake bias that rotates the car the way you want or even just lifting off the throttle.

 

You'll be mixing it up with Noble in no time! 

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23 minutes ago, GwiDan said:

Bunny, where are you looking when you’re driving? Once you’ve spotted your braking point you should be looking at the apex of the corner and once you’ve lined up with that you should look at your exit point. This should help you make one sweep of the steering wheel to get around the corner using the full width of the track. If you can make sure you’re looking in the right place, it will generally improve your driving around the whole lap rather than trying to correct one thing for one corner at a time. 

lol i should do this. 

 

when doing the time trials, i end up just staring at the bloody delta the whole time. 

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