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Watchmen on HBO

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I know they don't have the VFX budget to pull off a Dr Manhattan that's the same quality as the film, but still you'd think that HBO would have enough cash to get something a bit better that the Squidward cosplayer version we got,

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There was nothing wrong with him. It was a cracking episode. Can't wait for the finale. 

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I love this show. That episode was the best slow burner I've seen in a long time. Quite a lot of answers too.

 

Can't wait to see what happens in the finale but also going to be sad when this finishes. Hopefully it does get another series; God knows it deserves something after (imo) being one of the best pieces of TV this year.

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Amazing! I can't believe there's only 1 more left but perhaps that's what has helped it be so good. 

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Yeah, I dont want another season. I want this to conclude satisfyingly, and then that be that. 

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With each passing episode, as the whole intricate web comes into sharper and sharper focus, and as the genius of the storytelling is revealed, this show gets better and better. Lindeloff has really done it - this shit will be remembered for years to come. 
 

First, the sublime:

 

Spoiler

Angela using Manhattan as a time-telephone, inadvertently setting into motion the whole thing. My jaw hit the floor when I realised what was happening and pretty much didn’t close again until the ending... at which point it hit the floor again!

 

Then the... confusing:

 

Spoiler

It makes no sense, beyond his mysterious comment about being limited in his ability to influence events, that Manhattan wouldn’t have just teleported himself and Angela to Switzerland, or wherever he sent the kids, if he knew the Kavalry were coming. The writing has been too good so far, I know there must be a reason why he sacrificed himself, but damned if I know what it is. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Thor said:

Yeah, I dont want another season. I want this to conclude satisfyingly, and then that be that. 


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Outstanding episode.  If they can wrap this up satisfactory it'll go down as one of the best TV shows ever.

 

Spoiler

I still reckon the Veidt stuff is set before the main story, and the meteor hasn't been resolved yet. I'd say Manhattan has made plans. And Mirror Guy has to step in!

 

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1 hour ago, Popo said:

 

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It makes no sense, beyond his mysterious comment about being limited in his ability to influence events, that Manhattan wouldn’t have just teleported himself and Angela to Switzerland, or wherever he sent the kids, if he knew the Kavalry were coming. The writing has been too good so far, I know there must be a reason why he sacrificed himself, but damned if I know what it is. 

 

Spoiler

 

The comic and the series both confirm that Manhattan can be surprised, even if he knows that he will be surprised. In the book he is surprised to hear that Dan and Laurie are sleeping together even though he mentions it first. He says something like “everything is pre-ordained, even my reactions”. 
 

So by the same token he can be surprised by the last living Kavalryman and suffer the consequences. 
 

I guess it’s just impossible to imagine that level of prescience. If you know everything that will happen to you but are 100% sure that you can never change it, why would you even struggle against it?

 

 

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This is just so, so good. One thing I realised tonight is how well they’ve nailed the feel of the original with the layered stories, flashbacks, etc in a way that the film failed to do despite its “use the comic as the storyboard” approach. And I say that as someone who enjoyed the film, but this is not just in another league, it’s playing a different game.

 

Also I automatically love anything with a bootstrap paradox so it gets double points from me tonight.

 

 

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Also, what about the horseshoe?

Spoiler

 

Way back in episode 1 doesn’t Veidt say to his butler “I don’t need that yet” when he is handed a horseshoe with his cake? As if he’s said “bring me a horseshoe with my cake” but they gave it to him on too early a birthday?
 

Did Manhattan gift his perception of time to to Veidt? Is Veidt just playing out his part, knowing full well he’s stuck on Europa for years?

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Pob said:

Also, what about the horseshoe?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Way back in episode 1 doesn’t Veidt say to his butler “I don’t need that yet” when he is handed a horseshoe with his cake? As if he’s said “bring me a horseshoe with my cake” but they gave it to him on too early a birthday?
 

Did Manhattan gift his perception of time to to Veidt? Is Veidt just playing out his part, knowing full well he’s stuck on Europa for years?

 

 

 

Shit, was every birthday cake given to Veidt indicative of a year passing? 

 

I feel so stupid right now. 

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It' s a weird show. It's like a very good version of a dumb version of Watchmen, if you get me. Like a very-talented fanfiction that highlights how good the original actually was.

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I get you but don't agree. It's deliberate use of the original tale to tell a new tale about new characters and old, Is just superb. 

 

It's like a really well done remix of the original. Whilst also saying something new overall. Anyway ep8 just sublime TV. 

 

A little elephant told me. Hmm 

 

 

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Couldn’t agree more @cassidy. The first episode didn’t even make reference to the Watchmen I think, except maybe the raining squid. It’s got real confidence and absolutely is doing it’s own thing. 
 

That the plot which started with a racially motivated hanging in the south has now been tied so deftly into a proper Watchmen save-the-world plot - and done so in a meaningful way that isn’t just winking fan service - is just the icing on the cake. 

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My sister in law "a self confessed feminazi" made an excellent point. 

 

The main characters and most important characters are women. And it's not even a thing. It just is. 

 

@Matt Defis Then she went on a drunken rant about how let down she is by Jodie Whitakers Doctor which is for another thread.  

 

 

 

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Some fucker in work told me that Ep 8 was the last ever episode, so I watched it just now and I’m like what the fuck!?!?

 

Came in here to see that there’s one more left. Well thank fuck for that. :lol:

 

And as it happens I’m watching it right now. We all are.

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6 hours ago, cassidy said:

My sister in law "a self confessed feminazi" made an excellent point. 

 

The main characters and most important characters are women. And it's not even a thing. It just is. 

 

I think it started out that way, but then it was balanced out by Looking Glass and Will coming to the fore.  And Angela gets more and more defined by her relationships

Spoiler

with her grandfather and her husband

I hope we get more of her own agency in the last episode.  

 

As much as this has been a mystery box show, I never felt the like the story in the ‘present’, the fight against the seventh cavalry, is ever the meat of the show.  This episode makes it quite clear, it’s not just this episode that’s been arranged around Dr M’s sense of time.  As been said, it’s layered like the comics, the past feels as important as the present.  By the end of next episode, it would feel like we can see all the events all at once like the big blue man. 

 

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I just don't really get the story of this. I'm not sute what Lindelof is telling us apart from exposition split up to make mysteries. So much stuff explained via videologs, like a videogame - old Veidt videos, the memory pills, blue guy exposition episode.

 

I can see Lindelof LOVES Watchmen, I'm just not sure he understood it much. It wasn't just interlocking stories - it had a viewpoint, contrasting morals within the characters. I knew where The Comedian, Dr. Manhatten, Rosarach, Laurie, Dreiberg, Veidt were coming from - they were complicated characters. I have no idea what the main characters in this think about anything, no idea about their worldview (except the grandfather or mirror face man)  - partly because the show spends so much time explaining the plot or hiding it for reveals.

 

I dunno, it's not adding up for me at all.

 

And what's the obsession with BIG Manhatten in Vietnam?

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2 hours ago, Festoon said:

 

And what's the obsession with BIG Manhatten in Vietnam?

Maybe that's to do with Lindelof not understanding Watchmen by  referencing the Vietcongs reaction, where they will only surrender directly to Dr Manhattan and the panel states "with an almost religious awe" 

 

Which was the episodes title. Dunno though you clearly understand Watchmen more :rolleyes:

 

Excuse the snark but it amused me. 

 

 

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Has Kerraig hacked Festoon's account or something? 

 

Festoon, I get that you're in the slightly unfortunate position of having issues with something that almost everyone else in this thread isn't, but you framing your comments as coming from some kind of transcendent point of view, proverbially looking down your nose at it when everyone else isn't ... well, it make you look a right plonker. 

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8 minutes ago, Thor said:

Has Kerraig hacked Festoon's account or something? 

 

Festoon, I get that you're in the slightly unfortunate position of having issues with something that almost everyone else in this thread isn't, but you framing your comments as coming from some kind of transcendent point of view, proverbially looking down your nose at it when everyone else isn't ... well, it make you look a right plonker. 

 

Ha! I've a way to go yet to get to the paranoia level required.

 

I definitely don't mean to sound like I'm looking down my nose but I just can't see a through line of character viewpoints, particularly for main characters. Perhaps it's just that I feel Sister Night's role is a little boring and I don't really understand her pov. Look it's a million times better than I expected, and about ten million better than Doomsday Clock, but maybe I got overexcited a few episodes in and have been a little deflated since.

 

For me, what I'm waiting to see in the last episode is: what's Trieu's clock thing and does Veidt escape? It's a bit Lost-y in that I want to know these plot details but don't particularly feel for the characters, when I feel like I'm supposed to. Does that make sense?

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I know people have opinions and feel justified to vent them, but when you take a rollercoaster ride, just strap yourself in and enjoy it. Why some then start to complain that it's not the pirate ship?

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2 hours ago, Thor said:

Has Kerraig hacked Festoon's account or something? 

 

Festoon, I get that you're in the slightly unfortunate position of having issues with something that almost everyone else in this thread isn't, but you framing your comments as coming from some kind of transcendent point of view, proverbially looking down your nose at it when everyone else isn't ... well, it make you look a right plonker. 


He’s not doing that from what I can see. Just trying to explain what doesn’t work for him in a pretty polite and reasonable manner. Disagree with what he says fine. Having a different opinion to you doesn’t automatically make him a 'right plonker'. And you, of all people, complaining about someone having a negative reaction to something and posting about it on the internet is pretty hilarious.

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I'd say the overall viewpoint is fairly clear. The original Watchmen was, partly, about how the cold war would be affected by the presence of actual superheroes, and the follow-up is about how the presence of superheroes might create a culture where it's acceptable to wear masks to fight injustice, and how that idea might be perverted by bigots and by the establishment. And specifically how that might affect attitudes to race.

 

Basically, nuclear war was the big idea behind the first one, and racism was the big idea behind the new one.

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All the Dr. M stuff on the new episode was great. But the real head-spinner was the

Spoiler

Adrian twist. That he put himself on Europa and that everything that's happened to him has been his own fault. Bit of an oversight for the smartest man in the world not to have a way out though. Hopefully he gets back to Earth next week.

 

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1 hour ago, Harsin said:


he’s not doing that from what I can see. Just trying to explain what doesn’t work for him in a pretty polite and reasonable manner. Disagree with what he says fine. Having a different opinion to you doesn’t automatically make him a 'right plonker'. And you, of all people, complaining about someone having a negative reaction to something and posting about it on the internet is pretty hilarious.

Festoon's post likens the storytelling in this to most videogames, and his post clearly implies he understands the source material better than the show's lead writer/producer. Festoon's second post is a lot better. 

 

Having a differing opinion is fine, framing it as some kind of elitist "I know better" opinion ... not so much. 

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I forgot to mention this before, but I liked the Black Mirror reference in the bar scene, with that song playing in the background. 

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