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Gorf King

Destiny 2 Shadowkeep: the Undying Grind

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This all seems a bit beside the point. The basic cooldowns are undoubtedly appreciably longer - 7m 30s in D2 as opposed to 5m in D1 at tier 0, so 50% longer (and who ever has tier 0 for intellect? Everyone who uses supers is at tier 5 intellect, and that's 3m 40s cooldown - less than half what D2's is). And the more often you get a super the more frequently you create orbs, and the more you can super again and make more orbs, so the effect of a faster cd is amplified by orb chaining more in D1 than it is in D2. Of course, we don't know if there's a 'boost your super' mod for armour yet to make up for loss of intellect customisation - there probably is - but then there are perks that also help reduce cooldown further on various bits of armour and weapons in D1.

 

Bottom line is, the basic cooldown is tons longer in D2, and there's no sign that the ways of modifying it will be even as effective as D1's intellect tiers (cos they're not there) + armour/weapon/subclass combined bonuses. It's an inherently slower-to-charge, less available ability. (I'd also argue that on this showing, some of those supers don't feel as superpowered. 6-shot Goldie, for example, feels much the same as six shots from the exotic handcannon. If you can get them all off in that 2.5 seconds it lasts.)

 

Same sorts of figures apply to grenade recharge. They're just slower and less available. Doesn't seem any dispute about that really. I get that this is only a beta, but I'd be surprised if things like this change much, if at all, between now and some future expansion. If people don't like the direction of travel, they're sensible to give feedback about it now rather than just say, 'yeah, feels fine to me'. Some of this stuff doesn't feel as good to me as it does in D1, and that's taking into account the fact that this is a beta of a vanilla product and lacks some features (like mods) that might change things. Like Weavus said, these characters are level 20 with full legendary gear and an exotic - they're not starting builds. It's clear that they've demoted supers and abilities in the game. That, to me, makes it a bit more like Any Other Shooter and a bit less like Space Magic Destiny, aka Ability Spam Simulator, aka Destiny 1.

 

I guess some of us just happen to like a generous side order of ability spam simulator to go with our several main courses of shooters.

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28 minutes ago, Gorf King said:

 

Let's not do the 'why isn't it being more like Halo a good thing?' stuff here. Because for people who've played recent Halos and Destiny 1, and who ended up playing Destiny 1 for many months longer, you know what their answer will be. For me, I couldn't stand Halo 5's PvE. I adored (much of) Destiny's. That notwithstanding, they're very different beasts anyway - like, a looter shooter with raids and RPG elements, and one that's basically just a set of story missions. When most people talk about the PvE they love in Destiny they're not referring to a once-through of the story missions - that's just the start of it. They're taking about the PvE endgame.

 

The easier answer to give and take (and not argue about in a negative fashion) is that Halo and Destiny are/were different games and you don't want games to become more similar to each other, but more diverse.

That's fair enough. I wasn't really talking about the most recent Halos though, but what Bungie built.

 

You're right though, I don't want this to turn into a competition between Halo and Destiny, and I'm happy they're pushing things on.

 

For me personally though, hearing it's gone a bit more Halo, no matter how small, is a good thing, as I think there are still plenty of things they can take from it to make Destiny better.

 

I'll post my thoughts after I've been through the beta a few times.

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I'm amazed at some the posts mentioning how better it is to D1. Like Gorf mentions above, part of the reason I enjoy Destiny is the space magic, is the over top nature of it all. There are so many more better and more qualified MP options for PvP centric gaming out there. I don't want to spend the majority of the time shooting with just a rifle, I want to be flipping between rifle, then switching to my sniper and for that death blow using a rocket launcher while hurling a giant purple shield into hamster looking monster's face. 

 

It's all been chucked out of the window, seemingly, for some awful competitive game aiming at an eSport market. 

 

 

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It does sound like they have got the weapon inventory stuff wrong. Not having access to a sniper rifle and a heavy machine gun or rocket launcher sounds pretty crap.

As a bit of lightweight D1 player who got bored at lvl 28 I thought the game was too grindy and the elemental weapons made this even worse. If Bungie wanted to simplify things they should have just ditched elemental weapons not ruined what was basically a good system.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gorf King said:

Sure, I get that a lot of people will like D2 more than the original (the bits they played) because some of the stuff in that was a turnoff to them. If it's more like Halo in terms of shooting, or (lack of) RPG-like customisation, or progression, or whatever, some people will consider that a good thing. I'm just concerned, and have been for a while, that Bungie are trying to talk to that crowd and bring them back in, while also trying to throw sops to the more RPG/grindy lot. And also try to build a proper 'competitive' balanced PvP shooter, and at the same time as all of this, try somehow to make everything integrated and PvE/PvP non-separated. I simply don't think you can do it, and they may end failing to please anyone, and making a less distinctive and different product as a result.

 

It's early days yet, so I might have it totally wrong. But everything I've played, read and heard supports my feelings more as the weeks roll on to release. I think the campaign will be far more like a traditional shooter (like Halo) and tell a far more coherent story with lots of cutscenes. But then, TTK did that - many non-fans will simply not have played that. I fear that this arm, along with PvP, has been developed, while oversimplifying some of the more RPG-like systems, making the game less flamboyantly 'space magic', and getting rid of the gloriously overpowered weapons and abilities that could be had in year one Destiny if you were prepared to grind. And I fear this has been done in the name of balance, in the name of making everything more of a level playing field with easier entry to those who don't want to grind.

 

Now, that's a dream for some. But for RPG-grinding nutters who are prepared to play the game to death to get everything they desire, that's a big loss. And that, I'm afraid, means me. I want my super overpowered guns and abilities, please, and balance and restraint can go fuck themselves in a dark alley while a crowd of competitive shooters watch the unfurling obscenity on Twitch. I just want to pull a one-shot on a spider tank with Celestial Nighthawk, and lol into a cabbage while we waste a boss in 2.3 seconds with a massed army of Gjallarhorns. Balance and restraint can go rot - once the gaping crowds of onlookers have dispersed.

 

And they will.

Yep. Look so like we're at different ends of the spectrum. I enjoyed what I played of Destiny and TTK was great, but the grind killed it for me. I just don't have the time to invest these days.

 

Saying that, I really enjoyed some of the crazy shit I picked up along the way, so I don't want the space magic nerfed. I don't know how they solve it though, other than separating the PvE from the PvP (which I always felt was unbalanced), but I can imagine that'd cause a whole load more problems for people who enjoy it the way it is.

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I'd be completely down for having two different loadouts for PVE and PVP.

 

Would give you more stuff to do and they could chuck in more outlandish perks on items without fear of unbalancing the other area. 

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It's weird they've basically ended up at the same place with the story stuff.

 

Quote

"What shall we do with the plot of our new game, Destiny?"

 

"Like what we did with Halo? Grand space opera adventure in a universe full of mysteries but with over the top characters bouncing off each other and stopping it from being too serious."

 

"We don't like the story, you're all fired, we'll get the devs to write their own."

 

"Guys everyone hates our story, we've hired new writers for the Taken King and sequel, but they're asking what direction we want to go in?"

 

"How about grand space opera adventure in a universe full of mysteries but with over the top characters bouncing off each other and stopping it from being too serious?"

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New this week at Bungie is out https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/46077/ with news that Donut is on point about how old a build the beta was:

 

Quote

The PVE game tuning has changed pretty significantly since the Beta build was deployed. The nature of a Beta of this scale requires that it’s based off a build of the game that is now months old. So, in many cases, your feedback is helping us validate changes that were previously made based on internal feedback and playtesting. For example, we too felt that ammo (especially power ammo) was too scarce in PvE. In addition to retuning the drop rates, we built a system that guarantees power ammo drops for you and your Fireteam from certain enemies, giving power weapons a more reliable and predictable role in your arsenal. Other areas where we’ve made significant tuning changes include grenade effectiveness in PvE, Boss vitality, and weapon damage against non-player combatants.

 

Sounds positive but does not address my biggest concerns at all: 1) Two primaries is dull as fuck and a big step backwards 2) Player movement/jumping is too slow in PvE (its ok in PvP). 3) PvE cooldown rate is too long for supers and abilities. Hopefully they will cover those in the coming weeks.

 

Also, if all this is true (and not mad panic scramble after their core fanbase cried out how awful the beta is in certain areas) you think they'd have set expectations _BEFORE_ the beta was released about how old it was and how they had already found it way too stingy with ammo, grenades were too weak and guns were woefully underpowered... could have saved them a lot of shit on reddit and a growing amount of negative press coverage.

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The primary issue is hard baked into the design of D2; they wont ever change that, and is detrimental to the game in my opinion, as you are right, it is dull as fuck. They wont pay any attention until the numbers drop off, which I think they might, judging by the number of complaints all across the interwebz, but we'll have to wait and see to be sure.

 

Not sure about movement speed, as it doesnt feel too bad in PvP, though the actual jumps on a Warlock are pretty crap - way worse than in D1, as in they're not as fast and you dont travel as far.

 

All this feels like its solely for PvP balance, and I refuse to believe otherwise, as there's no reason to make players feel weaker than they are in Destiny 1 other than for that. Its well rubbish, and Bungie cant not know that it is.

 

Remember this:

"We want you to feel powerful when you're playing Destiny." - Grant from Bungie

I know its an old article, but still. I guess this just does not apply to Destiny 2, at least judging from the beta.

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I put 100s of hours into Destiny, but I'm absolutely bouncing off this. Seems incredibly slow and sluggish, poorly balanced, horrible to control, chuggy to look at, haphazardly designed and really, really, really boring. The music is awful, the dialogue is abrasive and annoying and the visuals are kind of bleary. The field of view is a headfuck even from 12 feet away. I haven't played Destiny for at least a year, did they muck it up or have I just been spoiled by snappier games? My overriding reaction to this is "yuck" and I'm a bit gutted because I remember loving the first one faults and all. I was in the first muk crew to finish the first raid etc. 

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2 minutes ago, Moz said:

I put 100s of hours into Destiny, but I'm absolutely bouncing off this. Seems incredibly slow and sluggish, poorly balanced, horrible to control, chuggy to look at, haphazardly designed and really, really, really boring. The music is awful, the dialogue is abrasive and annoying and the visuals are kind of bleary. The field of view is a headfuck even from 12 feet away. I haven't played Destiny for at least a year, did they muck it up or have I just been spoiled by snappier games? My overriding reaction to this is "yuck" and I'm a bit gutted because I remember loving the first one faults and all. I was in the first muk crew to finish the first raid etc. 

 

60fps games defi feel snappier but ssshhh

 

I don't even buy that it's for PvP as it's never going to be a competitive game without dedicated servers and it would be 60fps in PvP for the player base as it's expected. 

 

Personally  I think it's more to appeal to a more casual player base and to move away from the meta that 'hardcore' players figure out. The strike in particular is pretty boring as it's easy and feels like the division variant of killing enemies by high numbers and nondescript weapons :(

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3 minutes ago, Moz said:

 I haven't played Destiny for at least a year, did they muck it up or have I just been spoiled by snappier games? 

 

Probably that. I stopped D1 playing for a while, but came back for the higher LL raids this year. It took a while to get accustomed to the relative chugginess compared to the other games I'd been playing. 

 

Also, hey, look!

 

https://gamerant.com/destiny-2-super-grenade-cooldown-armor/

 

destiny-2-armor-affects-abilities-cooldo

 

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6 hours ago, Moz said:

I haven't played Destiny for at least a year, did they muck it up or have I just been spoiled by snappier games?

 

Probably just spoiled by another game. I came into the Destiny 2 beta straight from another game that felt loads faster. It also had slightly snappier shooting and stickier aim assist, and the guns just felt more satisfying to shoot. Obviously I went straight back to it after the beta, and it felt better still. Weird how Destiny 1 still feels good after all this time.

 

The armour mod: totally expected. Wonder how much that armour mod will reduce cooldown though? It already takes almost half as long again for a grenade to charge over Destiny 1, and that's at tier 0 discipline. My guess is it'll not even get it anywhere near a tier 5 build, let alone what you'd get if you had a grenade recharge perk on some D1 armour - cos they had those things too!

 

It's still a dreary base recharge rate for abilities and supers, and unlike D1, not modifiable by changing character stats. Adding a % reduction to that isn't going to bring it up to par with a system that had similar perks but started from a way faster baseline. I know you're just playing devil's advocate here, but unless they rewrite the fundamentals (which will obviously affect encounter design and PvP), this seems an inherently much slower and less flamboyant game in many ways than D1. Might as well embrace it if you welcome that sort of thing.

 

Best reddit thread title of the day:

 

Quote

 

lol, but also yeah.

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Probably won't get a chance to play the beta but it sounds really disappointing. One of the real joys of destiny for me was having a sniper rifle and something else, not being locked to sitting in the bushes on a nearby hill but still having the option. Same thing with shotguns. I know it made people a bit too powerful in Crucible but it was worth it for the feeling of power when running strikes and missions. Same with the supers and grenades.

 

I can not imagine a world where I decided that the solution to overpowered supers and snipers was to just barely ever let people use them. It sounds like they're sucking out the best things about destiny and removing about half the standard gun types from FPS games to hide them with the overpowered rocket launchers. That's fucking stupid.

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I imagine we've all worked with managers who come up with some 'amazing' new system that the second everyone hears it they go 'That won't work'. It gets pushed through regardless and surprise surprise it doesn't work. Then instead of admitting they got it wrong management double down on it and keep making amendments convinced that it will eventually start to work much to the frustration of the rest of the poor sods working there.

 

I imagine the won't budge from the must have the same loadouts for every mode stance is similar.

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7 hours ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

60fps games defi feel snappier but ssshhh

 

I don't even buy that it's for PvP as it's never going to be a competitive game without dedicated servers and it would be 60fps in PvP for the player base as it's expected. 

 

Personally  I think it's more to appeal to a more casual player base and to move away from the meta that 'hardcore' players figure out. The strike in particular is pretty boring as it's easy and feels like the division variant of killing enemies by high numbers and nondescript weapons :(

 

The strike was woeful, although I appreciated the No Mans Sky colour palette.

 

Since I last played Destiny 1 I've been playing a lot of Titanfall 2 and Battlefield 1 at 144fps. But I have also played a whole bunch of 30fps games on PS4 which felt fine. This felt like wading through treacle with a broken leg. I swear the jumps and slides feel worse and the sidestrafe feels half the speed of a normal shooter. The PC beta in a short while will tell me if it's the gameplay or just a performance thing. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Moz said:

This felt like wading through treacle with a broken leg. I swear the jumps and slides feel worse and the sidestrafe feels half the speed of a normal shooter. The PC beta in a short while will tell me if it's the gameplay or just a performance thing. 

 

Didn't they just nerf the movement speed and jump velocity (as well as remove titan skating etc) so it just feels slower because they just slowed guardians down rather than anything to do with 30fps? Maybe there will be armour that boosts this back up and you will have to decide if you want treacle boots or a grenade before the activity ends...

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The new system kind of makes sense to me, as the way elemental weapons worked in D1 meant that some primaries were pretty much mandatory - like, if there was Arc burn on the strike playlist, you pretty much had to use Zhalo Supercell. Guns like MIDA Multitool, Hung Jury, Crypto Dragon, Bad Juju, etc felt so powerful that I was unlikely to use much else in the primary slot, which obviously limits the rest of your loadout. And I was bad for hoarding heavy ammo as well, so having a power weapons slot with more drops with a weapon I absolutely have to use combined with two primary slots could make for a more varied experience for me. I like the idea of pairing something like Monte Carlo with a hand cannon, or having a scout rifle and an SMG.

 

My interest in the beta is pretty minimal though, which is surprising. I never thought I'd be playing Elite: Dangerous over Destiny 2, but I'm not really that arsed about D2 - although the beta is admittedly pretty limited in comparison to the original game. There aren't any open areas to explore for one thing.

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I always thought the elemental system seemed a bit of an odd fit, there's nothing it does that isn't already done with the weapon perks system - bonus damage against enemies, inflicting statuses, etc.

 

The Mass Effect system of having the damage types being Ballistic, Explosive and "Powers" and having advantages against health, armour and shields respectively was more elegant and didn't force you having to spec a loadout for type coverage. EDIT: Actually I guess Halo kind of did this before ME?

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25 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

I always thought the elemental system seemed a bit of an odd fit, there's nothing it does that isn't already done with the weapon perks system - bonus damage against enemies, inflicting statuses, etc.

 

Personally, I think having elemental shields on enemies was the wrong choice and all shields should have been neutral and the enemy health was the elemental bit. Firing a solar gun at a void element enemy should cause around 15% less damage than a kinetic gun and using a void gun would cause around 15% increased damage. All enemies (unless neutral) would then be affected by weapon element choice (not just elites) and having a mix of them in activities would encourage more varied loadouts between fireteams. 

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It's a big change & took me a while to get comfortable with two primary weapons. Does feel odd though but I'm sure will get familiar once the game is released.

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I've played through the Beta on a Titan and Hunter now, and I'm afraid I'm finding myself in the disappointed camp also. :(

 

I find the movement too slow, the changes to ability cooldowns depressing, and the switch to double primaries sad. The Grenade Launcher and submachine guns don't strike me as great additions either.

 

I did find the PvP that I played to be a better time, but I don't give any fucks about that element of the game anyway. It feels to me like they've subtracted too much from the parts that make Destiny unique, in what I feel will be a fruitless endeavour to chase things that other games are going to continue to do better.

 

I'm quite sad to be joining the internet hivemind on this. But I'm quite bummed out.

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7 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

I'm quite sad to be joining the internet hivemind on this. But I'm quite bummed out.

 

There is still time for them to turn it around if the backlash gets big enough. Also, the raid will be awesome whatever happens.

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1 hour ago, Purin said:

Can the open beta be downloaded now, or do I have to wait until 6pm? (Xbox)

 

I keep checking myself and it doesn't seem to be :(

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22 minutes ago, Andy_Why said:

I keep checking myself and it doesn't seem to be :(

 

There is no PS4 pre-loading for the open beta it seems. You need to wait till it starts at 6pm to be able to download the 12gb beta.

 

EDIT: Seems like there is a workaround for xbox pre-loading, see below

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