Destiny 2: Lightfall

[Shimmyhill]

32 minutes ago, Hexx said:

 

Yeah one of our group of players got 7 and 8 when match made - others of us can't get past 6  Even teamed.

Had been using roaming Supers - but I'm thinking the melty ones you mention would be better. Which park do you suggest (Boss damage would be guess?)

 

 

I think it’s boss damage we all had. The Titan small wall gives you no reloads so combine that with my well, a tether grenades in and then 2x sleeper and my grenade launcher (still can’t be arsed with that ques) and it’s just so much DPS it’s funny - the shielded hydra is longest as you have to wait for shields to move but mostly they are done in seconds, the Warlock well is so good and it’s odd for me to be such a supportive player as @Scruff can no doubt attest to  

[Hexx]

I really like support lock. You get a Overshield! You get a Overshield! You get a Overshield!

 

Half the time though I get the charge time wrong, throw a live grenade at my feet and die to the explosion.

 

 

[LiMuBai]

Or you can try Titan melting pot and warlock well plus 3 fast shotguns (Ikelos) and that will also melt the boss in a matter of seconds. It also leaves 2 supers free for add clearance on the next section.

[Scruff]

31 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

I think it’s boss damage we all had. The Titan small wall gives you no reloads so combine that with my well, a tether grenades in and then 2x sleeper and my grenade launcher (still can’t be arsed with that ques) and it’s just so much DPS it’s funny - the shielded hydra is longest as you have to wait for shields to move but mostly they are done in seconds, the Warlock well is so good and it’s odd for me to be such a supportive player as @Scruff can no doubt attest to  

 

I'd have said you were the perfect support player Shimmster; holding everyone up on every results screen  

[mikeyl]

Made a list of the top ten raids:

 

1- King’s Fall- ship jumps, relay bit, good number of boss fights. Challenge modes, story embedded as part of raid. Touch of Malice lols

2- LW - 2nd encounter best encounter of all. Gotta remember stuff and real coordination and timing needed (but also allows scope to think and readjust on the fly), everyone contributes plus a whole bunch of other spoilers

3- Vault of Glass - big scope, lovely weapons, Age of Triumph version best version. Vex are fun. Pacing. Can be a passenger for a lot of it though

4- Wrath of the Machine- engine run’s great, aesthetic is great, that exotic gun and all the raid armour banged. Best part is the challenge mode version of the last boss

5- Crota - lamps were great (basically anything with a drive of urgency and opportunity to chain supers). Like acting like the big man hero with the sword at the end

6- Spire of stars -nice and chill pass the parcel bit, opening encounter pretty hectic, last boss is good fun

7- EoW - Smashing up a giant hydra is pretty cool I guess and looks amazing but most of it wasn’t that original or that inspired

8- Leviathan - no bosses, boring but also so mechanic heavy there were little opportunities to chat shit with your fireteam. Suppose pools was ok but only 4 encounters so pretty small raid. And to avoid doing the same thing 4 times you can go get lost in the pointless corridors of the underbelly. What were they thinking?

 

[Uncle Mike]

That's funny, we were trying to work out our favourites in chat last night too.

 

Not sure I could ever rank the Raids. It'd be Vault of Glass first, but how much of that is it being the first?

 

Encounters though. Not sure how I'd put these into an order.

 

Atheon fight

Atheon pre-fight

Siege Engine

Last Wish 2nd boss

King's Fall Deathsingers

Crota bridge cross

 

 

[K]

The best bit in the Vault of Glass, and Destiny, and indeed culture in general, is that bit just after the oracles and the first boss where you go down a really deep hole for absolutely ages, and this is only a slight exaggeration.

[dreamylittledream]

13 hours ago, Hexx said:

 

I can't get to Wave 7 on the forest. The mask perks are bugged to fucked (sometimes you'll melt boss, other times you wont...and dear god don't have another heavy finder perk on!)

 

 

It really can't be that hard - I managed it from a random team.  Boss melty supers seem to work best

[bobontheway]

Woop, managed to unlock Horror Story

[Lyrical Donut]

 

7 hours ago, mikeyl said:

Made a list of the top ten raids:

 

1- King’s Fall- ship jumps, relay bit, good number of boss fights. Challenge modes, story embedded as part of raid. Touch of Malice lols

2- LW - 2nd encounter best encounter of all. Gotta remember stuff and real coordination and timing needed (but also allows scope to think and readjust on the fly), everyone contributes plus a whole bunch of other spoilers

3- Vault of Glass - big scope, lovely weapons, Age of Triumph version best version. Vex are fun. Pacing. Can be a passenger for a lot of it though

4- Wrath of the Machine- engine run’s great, aesthetic is great, that exotic gun and all the raid armour banged. Best part is the challenge mode version of the last boss

5- Crota - lamps were great (basically anything with a drive of urgency and opportunity to chain supers). Like acting like the big man hero with the sword at the end

6- Spire of stars -nice and chill pass the parcel bit, opening encounter pretty hectic, last boss is good fun

7- EoW - Smashing up a giant hydra is pretty cool I guess and looks amazing but most of it wasn’t that original or that inspired

8- Leviathan - no bosses, boring but also so mechanic heavy there were little opportunities to chat shit with your fireteam. Suppose pools was ok but only 4 encounters so pretty small raid. And to avoid doing the same thing 4 times you can go get lost in the pointless corridors of the underbelly. What were they thinking?

 

 

A top 10 list with 8 raids? Mikey! Have a word with yourself.

 

6 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

That's funny, we were trying to work out our favourites in chat last night too.

 

Not sure I could ever rank the Raids. It'd be Vault of Glass first, but how much of that is it being the first?

 

Encounters though. Not sure how I'd put these into an order.

 

Atheon fight

Atheon pre-fight

Siege Engine

Last Wish 2nd boss

King's Fall Deathsingers

Crota bridge cross

 

 

 

If we're doing lists:

 

Last Wish

WotM

VoG

Spire of Stars

 

Honourable mention for best Fancy Strike masquerading as a raid:

 

Crota

 

Looking back, King's Fall really wasn't that much fun after repeated runs - and the weapons were pretty much mostly bobbins.

 

[Mr Ben]

Weapons in Last Wish have been mostly bobbins to be fair, unless your name is Nighteyes-UK.

 

Then you just get one curated drop every week at least.

[Oz]

5 hours ago, Mr Ben said:

Weapons in Last Wish have been mostly bobbins to be fair, unless your name is Nighteyes-UK.

 

Then you just get one curated drop every week at least.

[Scruff]

6 hours ago, Mr Ben said:

Weapons in Last Wish have been mostly bobbins to be fair, unless your name is Nighteyes-UK.

 

Then you just get one curated drop every week at least.

 

That's the Ahamkara curse though. The curated Scout is terrible, the bow has a terrible perk and, IMO the pulse is better with non-curated perks.

[Nate Dogg III]

I think my favourite is Wrath Of The Machine. I was playing a lot back then so I was nice and high level and felt like I was good at it. Moreover, while it's certainly complex in terms of its mechanics, it's designed such that if one person dies it's not necessarily a wipe. You can switch around and adapt and cover for each other and that's where Destiny raids are at their most enjoyable, I think. When everybody has one job and it's a wipe if someone fucks up, I find the pressure too much, and completions are a relief rather than a thrill. Challenge mode Aksis is right up there with the best individual encounters in the game too I think.

 

When I think of Kings Fall now I just shudder. I was okay at the first encounter with the relic relay, but everything after that was miserable. 

[Thor]

1 hour ago, Scruff said:

 

That's the Ahamkara curse though. The curated Scout is terrible, the bow has a terrible perk and, IMO the pulse is better with non-curated perks.

Sorry Scruff, gonna have to disagree there. I've been using it to very good effect in the final raid encounter. It's an excellent long range weapon. 

[Scruff]

Glad you're enjoying it. I found it hit like a bag of flour and did similar damage. But then I doubt there is much that would be able to take my primary away from Bygones.

[Gorf King]

To state the obvious, I think a lot of what makes a Great Raid(™) is about where you were in the game at the time, whether you came in early (and blind) or late, who you played with, how well/quickly you completed, and lots of other stuff that's going to vary wildly by individual. So you're going to get some very divergent opinions.

 

One example's Crota's End. I've spoken to many people who don't rate it at all, but I really liked it. At least a few of those who didn't, cite stuff like cheesing/exploiting the bridge crossing - which was super common back in the day - as reasons it was meh. If you went in day one and never did that, I think that section was actually brilliant - having to work it out, first of all, felt great, and then the actual mechanic of each person taking their turn to storm the bridge with a fucking great sword and rush the Knight was brilliant. Real hero moment for everyone. The biggest problem with Crota was the bugginess of Crota - and I also felt that making everyone underlevelled throughout hard mode was pretty cheap, and made the start of the last fight a constant pain in the arse, especially when we had the heavy ammo bug in full force. They're the two things that drag that raid away from near the top spot.

 

In Aksis, Wrath of the Machine had easily the best boss music of any raid, and it scores a lot of points for that alone. Also the Siege Engine is just such a blast as an encounter, mainly due to the outdoor setting and Mad Maxiness of ploughing the titular snowplough through all those obstacles while playing air guitar. Aksis himself proved a pain in the arse for our blind team, though, so it wasn't my favourite encounter while somehow feeling like it could be (until we all decided to turn up and do it 100%, and then it was great). Fuck that ship though.

 

The sense of journey is a big factor for me, and Vault of Glass just does that better than anything else - even King's Fall, which is second in that respect. Like Mike says, Vault was the First Raid and it's hard to take that out of the equation, so I have a hard time not making Vault #1. It's still unique in the way you load in from a patrol area and, early on in your raiding career, if you struggle even with opening the door, it's great for some randos to spot you struggling and jump in. Little touches like that help weld it to the rest of the game world, a thing sadly lacking in many other raids. The amazing interior journey aside, I also think the Atheon fight (sans cheese) is still the archetypal Destiny raid boss fight, with lots of co-ordination needed but plenty of scope for those hero moments.

 

KIng's Fall was the only raid that, when I first played it, I thought 'god, this is better than Vault'. I still think it's great, but again the Oryx fight itself just held us up so long on account of not quite being able to work out why the last, finest point of the damage mechanics was failing. When we eventually did work it out and execute (damn chest timing) we could just turn it around again super quick, but on the blind runs it caused us all sorts of self-doubt, and I still don't think the mechanic quite makes sense. Still a great raid though - a long, dark exploration of an alien world that tied into the lore so wonderfully, and I love it when something like that eventually gets you a weapon that ties it all together thematically and makes some encounters a breeze: the first time I used Touch of Malice on the sisters it was a right old laugh. Plus, Wall of Dicks.

 

On the opposite side of the spectrum, Leviathan is the only raid we ever beat blind within the first week. It's also the worst of the lot, by far, and has the distinction of being the thing that made me think Destiny was over for me. I'm not going to have a big moan about it here, but it does none of the things that make great Destiny raids great - it makes no sense, has no impact on the story, is totally separate from the game world, has crappy combat (apart from the last fight), the aesthetic and tone don't appeal at all and feel they were imported from another game, the Cabal are inherently crap, there's no real 'journey' or sense of discovery (finding Boiler Room #23 doesn't count), it's like a collection of mini games rather than a progression (a feeling of bittiness heightened by them swapping the order encounter every week), and in fact it is a series of mini games set up for the amusement of a fat drunk who's not even there. Like, you don't get to really kill anything at the end, there's no big bad, etc. And the gear's crap. Oh, looks like I did have a moan then. Just a massive, massive disappointment.

 

The D2 Y1 lairs are... ok. They're mainly a relief in being better than Leviathan. I don't rate any of the encounters as highly as the best in D1, marginally preferring the Eater of Worlds boss to Spire's. Partly that's due to the environment and aesthetic again, partly because Cabal, and rockets. Like, who's actually ever liked a Rockets McDickface? No-one, ever. It's just such a shit mechanic, that rockets-in-the-face one. The jumping up into space and bombing ships thing was good fun though.

 

Last Wish is just great. We're only on the last boss - got tantalisingly close to doing her last night on our first proper run at the boss, but will have to wait until next Sunday for another go. So you can't give a proper appraisal until you've completed it, maybe a couple of times. But it's the first D2 raid that's been up there with D1's for me. It does has a sense of journey, obviously ties into the narrative, has proper bosses to kill, and in encounters 2 and 4 has two of the best in the whole series. 4 got us stuck with the *exact* puzzle solution for ages though - we had the gist of it really quickly, but all the misdirection in the room, the names of things, etc, led us on a few merry dances where we were *so* close before we actually cracked it properly. Then the execution is a lot of fun, in some of the same ways that encounter 2 is. And although she's not beaten yet, the last boss is also just great in terms of team play, comms etc, yet still does have that flexibility in some parts where you can turn round a sticky situation by improvising. (The improved token timer helps throughout the raid here.) Oh, and the raid actually has an impact on the story and, in a Destiny first, the game world outside the story is actually changed by it. That is a big deal, that aspect.

 

I think I have to also give honourable mentions to the revamped D1 raids that formed the Summer of Triumph in 2017. For example, the revamped Crota bridge section - all those swords! - and the Deathsinger timed challenge, and the one-blade-per-person Crota, all breathed new life into that raid and were big improvements on their vanilla versions. The single most satisfying, though, was the new mechanic for Atheon where everyone had to go into the away world, swapping in and out in pairs so as to keep both worlds going, and take down one oracle each before busting out that bubble in mid and torching the boss. That was such a great fight, and it takes me back to the feeling that Vault of Glass... it's just hard to take it off the top spot. So hard that I can't.

 

Best raid (including last boss)

Vault of Glass

 

Best raid (not including last boss)

King's Fall

 

Worst raid

Leviathan

 

Best raid encounter

Triumph challenge mode Atheon

 

Best raid music

Wrath of the Machine - Aksis

 

Best air guitar simulator

Siege Engine

 

Current favourite (it's always your last album)

Last Wish

[Nate Dogg III]

Very true about Crota. I have fond memories of running it, because we had a good group and there was so much downtime waiting for supers and synths that we just talked a lot. And in one case, fell asleep. And in another case (same guy), going for a piss with the headset on. Some people.

 

But mostly I remember dying early on in lamps because I was squishy, and being saved by invis hunters. I remember self-res cheesing the bridge. I remember pointlessly pinging Crota's shield with Icebreaker because I didn't have Gjallarhorn, never running sword because I didn't have a hunter, all the wipes lost to bugs, and all that hanging around by the crystal waiting on six people's cooldowns. Was still fun though.

 

I think I'm a little down on the year-one stuff and Kings Fall because throughout I was so afraid of letting the team down that I just ran Sunsinger the whole time and sat on my super until I died. It was only really in WOTM that I broke out of that comfort zone – largely because one death didn't necessarily mean a wipe – and started using a different subclass and going raggo with it.

[mikeyl]

Yep definitely - no one needs to be ragged on because they fucked up a 20 minute boss fight at the end, no need for that stress. Leviathan is so bad for that. 

 

I’m down on VoG because by the 3rd clear I still didn’t know what was going on. Proper carried.

[Nate Dogg III]

I must have cleared VOG 30 times over the years, but to this day I couldn't lead you through the Gorgons maze if my life depended on it.

[mikeyl]

The best thing about Gorgon’s maze is going back in at 400 light two years later and rinsing those busybodies silly with the purple swords.

[Shimmyhill]

8 minutes ago, Nate Dogg III said:

I must have cleared VOG 30 times over the years, but to this day I couldn't lead you through the Gorgons maze if my life depended on it.

 

Same, I don’t pay attention to stuff like that and it drives my playing buddies crazy so I pay less attention - I’m there for the heroic Warlock shooting, shenanigans and being a hero not to read a bloody map 

[Uncle Mike]

I reckon I could almost do the Gorgon maze blindfolded. Except for avoiding the Gorgons.

[Shimmyhill]

Just now, Uncle Mike said:

I reckon I could almost do the Gorgon maze blindfolded. Except for avoiding the Gorgons.

 

Titan?

[Uncle Mike]

Obvs.

[Shimmyhill]

Figures.

[Thor]

Here's how I'd rate the raids overall

 

1. Vault of Glass

2. The Last Wish

3. Crota

4. Kings Fall 

5. Wrath of the Machine

7. Eater of Worlds

8. Spire of Stars

9. Leviathan

 

My rating of Crota so highly may raise some eyebrows, but Crota gave us Black Hammer, which went on to become Black Spindle in Y2 of D1, and now Whsiper of the Worm in D2. A simply amazing weapon that I loved dearly. Plus, Crota is actually good fun all the way through. I loved being the sword guy at the end despite not being a hunter. And it was Crota that got me into Gorf King's raid team for the first time - they needed one more for the final boss, and yes, they were that desperate they asked me.   We nailed it.

 

Kings Fall gets rated so low because ... hang on, I'm trying to think ... ummm ... eerrr ... nope. I can't remember a single good legendary weapon drop from the Kings Fall raid. It's why VoG and LW are so high, they're brilliant to play and the drops are worth it. VoG had Vision of Confluence, Praedyth's Revenge, Corrective Measure (my all time favourite heavy weapon!), and of course, FATEBRINGER! I was never actually a fan of Mythoclast.

 

Wrath of the Machine was fun to play and I liked the Scout Rifle with triple-tap, but there was way too much mucking about with throwing balls, and I really really didn't like the final encounter with Aksis. 

 

I've rated EoW the highest of the D2 Y1 raids because of its visual design. With more time/resources I reckon they could have put something out much better than that with the same aesthetic. As for the original Leviathan ... "grow fat from strength!" ... whoever wrote that tagline should be fucking shot. Destiny's nadir distilled into a single sentence.

[K]

I quite liked the aesthetic of the Leviathan, and the sheer scale of the thing - the feeling that this was a vast environment that you can clamber all over and delve into. The problem with it - and with Kings Fall to a degree - is that the encounters felt so unbelievably contrived. The Vault of Glass and Crota's End to a lesser extent felt like real environments, and the mechanics of each challenge felt like they were a natural fit with that environment.

 

That first Kings Fall challenge, where you have to divide up into two teams and run toward a thing to get a buff and then run back to the centre to discharge the buff, felt like mechanics for the sake of having mechanics. They may as well have hit you with a sodoku and a few riddles - it was fun working it out, but it was overtly a game thing, rather than something you might expect to find exploring an ancient alien starship. Crota's End felt like the tipping point - the lamps were a convincing environmental hazard to be negotiated, whereas the bit with the swords was fun, but was too obviously a version of the old logic puzzle about getting across a river with a fox, a chicken etc, rather than a thing that worm-cultists would build into their pocket universe of hatred.

[Uncle Mike]

It's funny, isn't it, that dividing line between convincing mechanic and contrived gameshow.

 

Somehow the Templar, Atheon and Crota fights all feel "real" in a way some of the other encounters don't.

[Gorf King]

I think the issue of mechanics feeling contrived can be an issue throughout the raids. Like, hello Crota - why let the only weapon that can harm you be carried into the room by a bumbling Knight who derps his way into six lolling Guardians who instagib him and say 'cheers mate', then send another one in just in time for the next damage phase? Like, Crota baby, hello? Just try not donating to us the weapon that kills you, eh?

 

But then, you could say 'sword logic' and just get away with it. Like, here - come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. And I do apply that to King's Fall because Oryx is actually offering you a series of tests to see if you can beat him. The issue I take with Leviathan - which is arguably similar in terms of being tested by someone - is that the tests there are shit ('here, run around in a circle for a bit', 'here, play hide and seek with my dogs and then shove a grenade down their throat'), and they don't really lead to anything. Like, he was a robot all along. Great. We'll just leave him up there then. Why? No idea. And yeah, I really just don't like the feel of the Leviathan. It just doesn't feel connected to anything, and the rooms (despite literally being connected quite ingeniously) don't even feel connected to each other.

 

Like I say, I like the feeling of journey, of travel. The worst thing about Wrath of the Machine was taking all that time to travel through the raid, outdoors, then indoors, then across that wrecked flyover in a bulldozer, then jumping down into a vast underground complex of futuristic tech, ending up in that weird Tron-like environment that leads to the Saturday Night Fever For Goths room that actually does nothing. Then after all that you find out the last fight is in Uncle Mike's shabby little office and the boss is Mecha-zombie Richard Branson. You can almost smell that stale hairspray and the whiff of a discarded ham sandwich that someone dropped in an old server cabinet three weeks earlier.

 

Though, returning to puzzles, if you don't like being hit with a sodoku and a few riddles... well, hmm, there might be trouble in store for you later.