Destiny 2: Lightfall

[Mr Ben]

Will he tell the playerbase to throw money at the screen? Tune in to find out.

[Weavus]

2 hours ago, Gorf King said:

Looks like they're wheeling out the big guns for next week in response to the fans' increasing rumblings of dissatisfaction and DeeJ's sweet moves failing to placate them.

 

 

[Harsin]

In some ways this is worse than the Battlefront scandal. At least that game is upfront about how it’s going to roger you without lube, hence people being able to easily figure out it takes a bajillion hours to unlock Darth Vader and whatnot. I'm struggling to think of another example of a developer/publisher making a game actively lie to you about how much you're earning towards rewards.

[auntyclimax]

What rewards are we chasing though? @Harsin

[Harsin]

Bright engrams. Personally I've never been that worried about bright engrams when I play. But Activision/Bungie obviously believe that there are enough players out there who care enough about the things to spend money on them to have gone to the trouble set up an entire MTX system around it. But even if you don't care about them, surely you can see how making a game present false information to players about the one part of the game you can also purchase with real cash is a troubling precedent,

[Mr Ben]

They got caught out on it, and the playerbase was informed. Bungie may have said they've changed it, but its still not really working like they said it would.

 

Also I dont consider Bright Engrams as rewards. They're just something you get along the way. A side dish as it were. Tat. The only thing I wanted out of a Bright Engram I bought last week with silver dust, but I never actually wanted it enough to spend real money on it, or anything in the store. The season 2 stuff doesnt concern me at all, as I dont care about that either.

 

The lack of actual incentives to their activities is the main problem, along with how dull they've made Crucible - which they have fucked big time, as evidenced by the lack of people playing it, and the lack of people watching it. Activities need to be fun to play as well, which the raid is far from being, and I suspect the new "lair" will follow suit.

 

They need to show some big changes are in the works on Wednesday, which, realistically, I dont think they can do at this point.

[instasis]

I've probably got about 50% of the weapons across my characters and vault now. It's my new meta game to keep me interested. It's amazing how many dupes you get, really.

 

Playing Iron Banner and god the crucible is just so dull. At least I hated D1 crucible because it was chaotic and too much for my old brain to handle. This is just boring. Staring down long lines of sight like it's Counter Strike or something.

[Alex W.]

This is the worst bullshit. Not everybody can put in gameplay on the kind of slow, regular schedule this system demands and which their player engagement metrics almost certainly insist on. 

[Phelan]

On 25/11/2017 at 00:31, K said:

That XP thing is fucking weird. I would hazard a guess that they want to normalise and limit the rate at which people get bright engrams, but why not just have an explicit cap? The structure of the game as a whole is to limit each player to X number of powerful engrams a week, so it would make sense to have the same system for bright engrams. I get that you can buy bright engrams, and you don't want to turn players off altogether, but surely getting derisory amounts of XP is presumably going to be just as much of a turnoff as hitting the cap?

 

It's especially weird as the idea of getting less XP and fewer drops for doing things in quick succession is the precise opposite of how lots of game mechanics work. It's like an anti-combo. Having hidden mechanics that work against the player is  poor; it's only cosmetic stuff, so it's hardly game-breaking, but it's still pretty underhand.

 

Its really nasty behaviour by them. It punishes those players who can’t play every night and just jump on and do a massive three hour game rather than those who go on every night and do a quick half hour go meet their targets. 

 

It’s bizarre a company would punish players for playing more and for playing well. 

[Flub]

 

[Flub]

On 11/25/2017 at 05:38, Mr Ben said:

TLDR - Bungie either lied (likely, I dont care if you think I'm being cynical here), its bugged, or they've removed the cooldown but halved XP gains.

 

Also this weeks stream has been uploaded to youtube and its got far more downvotes than upvotes. Which is a shame, as it was quite funny.

 

Turns out they doubled the XP needed without telling anyone. Wow. Keep digging that hole Bungie.

[Flub]

 

Used to be 80k.

[Oz]

Team PC finished calus yesterday! Took us a couple of hours to learn and do even with the superior precision of our mice, 3 times the frame rates, and the super fast loading times of our SSDs. I think everyone playing really enjoyed it and we got some decent loot between drops in game and taking our saved tokens to the emissary. Xbone players can go and get their loot.

 

[K]

14 hours ago, Phelan said:

 

Its really nasty behaviour by them. It punishes those players who can’t play every night and just jump on and do a massive three hour game rather than those who go on every night and do a quick half hour go meet their targets. 

 

It’s bizarre a company would punish players for playing more and for playing well. 

 

I'm relatively relaxed about this because it's only cosmetic stuff - it's not like you have to upgrade your MIDA Multi-tool, and are getting continually battered by people in Crucible with top-level MIDAs unless you either play for 400hrs to get the right materials, or just buy a few loot boxes to keep up. However, the way that Bungie are continually misrepresenting how much XP you get or need to receive engrams is really odd. I seem to get a bright engram during most sessions I play, it doesn't feel like they're being doled out particularly stingily. A pack of cosmetic items for every couple of hours play seems pretty fair. So why are they disguising the amount of XP you get? Naked greed I can understand, but I genuinely don't see what they have to gain from misrepresenting the amount of XP you get.

[Phelan]

Just stumbled on something myself which is rather interesting. If you break down ANY purple shader you get a tiny amount of brite dust. If you break down any purple shader from Iron Banner you get glimmer...

 

Must be because they give you loads of shaders with Iron Banner

[footle]

54 minutes ago, K said:

 

I'm relatively relaxed about this because it's only cosmetic stuff - it's not like you have to upgrade your MIDA Multi-tool, and are getting continually battered by people in Crucible with top-level MIDAs unless you either play for 400hrs to get the right materials, or just buy a few loot boxes to keep up. However, the way that Bungie are continually misrepresenting how much XP you get or need to receive engrams is really odd. I seem to get a bright engram during most sessions I play, it doesn't feel like they're being doled out particularly stingily. A pack of cosmetic items for every couple of hours play seems pretty fair. So why are they disguising the amount of XP you get? Naked greed I can understand, but I genuinely don't see what they have to gain from misrepresenting the amount of XP you get.

 

The real underlying problem, for many of the vocal players, is that they’ve changed from:

you have to upgrade your MIDA Multi-tool, and are getting continually battered by people in Crucible with top-level MIDAs unless you play for 400hrs to get the right materials

 

i don’t actually think this is a thing that Bungie can win on. It’s clear that the previous approach of god rolls followed by 400 hours of busywork was shit for the vast majority of the player base. It’s clear that for that vocal minority of players the endgame is lacking, because there’s nothing to chase/aspire to those 400 hours.

 

they can’t really go with an ever increasing power thing if they want competitive PvP with a sufficient number of players.

 

so perhaps they need to do something similar to Diablo 3’s seasons, but make those seasons suitably distinct in terms of gameplay mechanics, rather than just a token drop event with a different colour of shader drop as a reward?

[Hexx]

4 minutes ago, footle said:

so perhaps they need to do something similar to Diablo 3’s seasons, but make those seasons suitably distinct in terms of gameplay mechanics, rather than just a token drop event with a different colour of shader drop as a reward?

 

That's what they originally hinted Seasons were - but instead they feel like an excuse not to sandbox change until a set date, exclusive emblems and....yey...limited time Brengram Cosmetics!

 

[footle]

7 minutes ago, Hexx said:

 

That's what they originally hinted Seasons were - but instead they feel like an excuse not to sandbox change until a set date, exclusive emblems and....yey...limited time Brengram Cosmetics!

 

 

If a season has to be tied to the DLC release schedule then it’s frankly too long a period of time. The DLC release schedule is also a bit pants: if you choose to just buy the base game, you have a grand total of three months (or one and a half months on PC) before you start seeing content walls: compare and contrast to Blizzard’s much more substantial yearly updates...

 

(I appear to be arguing that destiny would be less obnoxious with a subscription fee rather than a buy a $60 game + $30 expansion pass that’s bascially required after three months).

[Mr Ben]

So you're comparing Destiny to World of Warcraft then. Thats a pretty bad comparison. Diablo 3 would be a better fit, and thats "buy to play", exactly the same as Destiny.

 

There is not enough incentive to play. It wasnt about "his Mida is better because he farmed materials" in Destiny at all. In Destiny 2 the loot pool is shallow, the armour has no identity outside of visual appearance (cosmetic, what a surprise!) and the only reward for doing hard content is a blue emblem. Thats the issue with Destiny 2 right now, in a nutshell. The XP thing is a distraction from that problem. Yes its more bad publicity Bungie doesnt want/need. But its not the core problem with the game.

[footle]

2 minutes ago, Mr Ben said:

Diablo 3 would be a better fit, and thats "buy to play", exactly the same as Destiny.

 

It's not buy to play on a three month window; and it doesn't have a crippled loot system due to the requirement to support PvP.

[Mr Ben]

The loot system isnt crippled due to pvp though. Where are you getting that from? The loot system is crippled because Bungie did it themselves, though no-one asked them to do so.

 

Raid drops were never that good in pvp either, and Trials has always had pvp armour/weapons that werent great in pve. There was no reason to do what they have done in Destiny 2.

[Harsin]

They've completely failed in their attempts to turn the MP into a watched e-sport.

[df0]

And nobody is surprised by that.

[Oz]

one thing I find unbelievable is how they have managed to replicate the feel of this game on a pad using mouse and keyboard. I have never seen anything like it. all weapons feel almost exactly the same with very few notable exceptions (hard light being the most noticeable). so much so that the META in PvP has basically remained unchanged with the inclusion of the PC crew. maybe hand-cannons are a tiny bit more powerful but that is it. risking sounding 'hyperbolic' I would say it is best playing PC game I have ever played. I have played this game every week since it came out in one iteration or another. yet I continue to enjoy it every time. last Thursday only we jumped in for a couple of IBs with @Larsen B @Karde and @Moodmon on PC. 80 tokens later it was 1:30am and I had to drag myself away from the keyboard. it's like crack I tell ya! I also buy silver every now and then I must admit. and more often than I would like. so I am sorted for bright engrams. sinceI did not buy the expansion pass on either version I am about to run into a real Sophie's choice here in a couple of weeks. 

[K]

1 hour ago, footle said:

 

The real underlying problem, for many of the vocal players, is that they’ve changed from:

 

 

 

i don’t actually think this is a thing that Bungie can win on. It’s clear that the previous approach of god rolls followed by 400 hours of busywork was shit for the vast majority of the player base. It’s clear that for that vocal minority of players the endgame is lacking, because there’s nothing to chase/aspire to those 400 hours.

 

they can’t really go with an ever increasing power thing if they want competitive PvP with a sufficient number of players.

 

so perhaps they need to do something similar to Diablo 3’s seasons, but make those seasons suitably distinct in terms of gameplay mechanics, rather than just a token drop event with a different colour of shader drop as a reward?

 

I think it's a solvable problem, you just have to be careful to keep any changes out of the way of the standard PvP activities. I think you can balance not having rolls on weapons with a meaningful reward system. One thing I reckon would improve things would be to have the raid gear power go up to 315 (or whatever), and to enable power advantages in Trials and Iron Banner, i.e. the way it worked in D1. As it stands, you've got four MP playlists that are essentially exactly the same, and having higher power gear to aim for wouldn't impact most people's games, but would give them an incentive to play for better stuff.

 

I guess the other thing would be to make the raid better. I liked it from what In played of it, but the mechanics do seem a bit arbitrary and very similar to King's Fall. The best raids in D1 had interesting mechanics that felt at home in the setting, whereas the Leviathan feels a bit like you're on the Crystal Maze.

[Mr Ben]

My advice @Oz is wait till Wednesday before pulling the trigger, to see what Mr "throw money at the screen" says first.

 

I wouldnt expect anything major though, but if you still enjoy the game, then its an easy choice.

[Oz]

8 minutes ago, Mr Ben said:

My advice @Oz is wait till Wednesday before pulling the trigger, to see what Mr "throw money at the screen" says first.

 

I wouldnt expect anything major though, but if you still enjoy the game, then its an easy choice.

I will just wait probably until it is actually out to see how many people jump on what version (PC or PS4) and follow the crew. but I will but one of the two for sure. 

[sbrandon111]

4 hours ago, Oz said:

Team PC finished calus yesterday! Took us a couple of hours to learn and do even with the superior precision of our mice, 3 times the frame rates, and the super fast loading times of our SSDs. I think everyone playing really enjoyed it and we got some decent loot between drops in game and taking our saved tokens to the emissary. Xbone players can go and get their loot.

 

As an experienced player on both platforms now Oz, do you prefer Console or PC?

[Weavus]

1 hour ago, K said:

I'm relatively relaxed about this because it's only cosmetic stuff

 

Naked greed I can understand, but I genuinely don't see what they have to gain from misrepresenting the amount of XP you get.

 

The basic answer is they knew the system would be massively unpopular with their player base so they did as much as they could to hide it from being discovered. What if the rest of the game is as rigged as the XP system was? Who's to say the any of their RNG systems are actually random and has not been engineered to get people to chase the loot and buy silver (something I have suspect for a long time) without any hope of winning. Bungie have completely destroyed any trust I had in them with this terribly anti-consumer system. Fool me once and all that.

 

I look forward to see how they try and spin it on Wednesday. 

[Oz]

19 minutes ago, sbrandon111 said:

As an experienced player on both platforms now Oz, do you prefer Console or PC?

me and @Karde have had a similar experience. and we have both played a ton on either platform. I think I can speak for both of us when I say we have found the PC version vastly superior. quite significantly so. I would say a couple of things though:

 

1) the rumble of the controller is sorely missed to give the game a sense of weight and feedback. clicking a mouse is just not the same. and the visual queues to let you know you are being hit were designed with this rumble in mind. so it is easier to die when you are not noticing you are taking hits until you are about to die and the screen goes red. 

2) one other thing to note is that frame-rate aside it only looks a little better. for most people the visual upgrade will not be notable enough to justify the investment. one significant thing though is that the visual upgrade that does take place has a massive impact on game play. the higher native resolution resolves more detail so you are literally getting more information on the screen from objects in the distance, and your character response is quicker. you can see tiny bullets flying around in the distance or the faint glow of a shotgun coming your way etc. you are just getting more visual information about what is happening.

3) the crew in online PvP also appears to be more our age if I am honest. I believe I can tell by the way they are playing. there is more thoughtful coordination in PvP even when not on comms. and you can sense that even though the input device may be better, the hands doing the clicking are not as fast.

4) a lot less teabagging (except when I am doing it - lol) or trolling or playing like a dickhead. a lot less running around trying to outplay everyone and instead people tend to focus on tactics and playing smart. I find myself often forgetting what platform I am playing on and then I suddenly realise: 'oh, not everyone came running here'. you will often hear for example Karde on comms going 'where the fuck is everyone'. because people are hanging back and setting coordinated traps or running the clock down if they are ahead. these subtle differences in player behavior I find are incredibly noticeable if you have developed a muscle memory of the flow PvP.