Destiny 2: Lightfall

[Gorf King]

It’s not difficult to understand, is it? Destiny is partly a standard shooter, partly a looter RPG. There’s a progression game. You expect there’ll always be stuff to aim for, to progress towards. There’ll be ways to enhance your build, gear to get, etc. Maybe some levels, some stats, anything really. 

 

That’s what rpgs, looters, progression games offer. The end game in this one doesn’t offer as much as hoped, or anticipated, in those areas. Some aspects of the game are still a lot of fun to replay and master without any real material reward - eg the weekly variants of the prestige Nightfall - so it’s not as if it’s a binary choice. The gunplay/combat is very enjoyable in its own right to play. But I think a lot of people expect more than that from Destiny. There’s more to it than just being a good shooter. And D2 falls short on the RPG / progression side at the moment. (On top if that, I don’t think the raid is as inherently enjoyable to repeatedly run as the others, so when you put that on top of the disappointing loot, you have an end game that doesn’t inspire the amount of replay that D1’s did.)

[jonamok]

Didn’t play for the last couple days, having discovered Stardew Valley on the Switch. Feels good to not care about D2. At least for a little while.

[Nathan Wind]

Absolutely agree with Gorf's post.  By this point after the launch of D1, I was utterly hooked, but I haven't played D2 for a week and haven't wanted to.  A game about making a number go up and getting better guns, has made making the number go up too much of a grind for me, and gave me a gun I haven't felt the need to part with, right near the start.  The problem for me is there's nothing meaty to sit down and really get stuck into.  Everything is over in minutes - while the core gameplay is excellent, repeating the same ten minute long chunks of it over and over, to watch a number stay the same, is not. 

 

To be fair, quite probably it's just me that's changed.  I can't really get into games like Diablo now either, and I used to love them, it all just feels so pointless.

 

 

 

[Broker]

I think a major favouring of crucible helps here. I’m used to playing online FPS games with no number increasing, so after some time doing PvE if I’ve got no number gain I still get to play a few rounds online and enjoy it. I’ve not progressed much power wise recently (I could but can’t be bothered to repeat the exotic quests on my alts), but I’m still enjoying chasing better looking armour, the exotics I don’t have, mods and saving up the ridiculous amount of glimmer I need to paint all my sparrows and ships. It’s a real shame there’s not a better way to grind for cosmetics though, all of them being Eververse items is shite.

[Kryptonian]

@Mystacon and I did some strikes yesterday just for the gameplay, the loot would be pointless (and was) but we enjoy the gunplay and the chat

 

I’m sure I made a similar post in the D1 thread. Obviously progression and the sweet, sweet loot is a draw though!

[Broker]

Yeah I played Strikes with a friend for an hour or two yesterday. No relevant loot whatsoever, just fun gameplay.

[Karthirian]

17 hours ago, Nate Dogg III said:

This week's been interesting. I'm on holiday so haven't played, and while there's been a certain amount of FOMO from the notifications I'm getting of the gang sorting out raid times on the PS Messages app, I haven't particularly missed the game, just the people.

 

I get back tomorrow night, and have been periodically anxious about not having enough time before reset to get my milestones done, but it's a sort of subconscious thing, and once I actually think about it I realise these are old D1 feelings that don't really apply anymore. I don't need to make the numbers go up, because trials and banner ignore them anyway. I don't need big loot drops because I'm already at a high enough power level to take on every bit of content in the game, and there's no gear I feel like I'm missing that will make a difference to the way I play, or my chance of clearing certain things. 

 

Basically i just have this ingrained feeling of, oh crap, it's nearly reset and I haven't even started on my to-do list. But when I actually look at the list, there's actually very little point in doing any of it. 

 

Just so you know, we have missed you this week. Also technically after the first few messages you should just turn the notifications off that way it wouldn't be so painfully irritating. We still missed you that's they key point.

[Karthirian]

After a certain amount of time I can honestly say I don't really feel the need to have to play the game, yeah I will go on if I can be bothered but there is no real incentive at the moment to play everyday. I will continue with the game regardless. But I'm feeling very meh with game.

 

 

Luckily Spat got me to give FTNT a go strangely addictive.

[Starbreaker]

Although I'm only power 267 I'm actually in the same boat. The only way for me to bridge the gap to 280 is to wait for the weekly reset, doing the midi tool quest or keep running public events or strikes and pray for an exotic. It's getting a bit dull. 

 

 

[bobontheway]

Tried to do Trials of the Nine with my friends and we got wrecked. Must've played about 10 matches and didn't win a single one. So soul destroying. 

Constantly matched up with teams who had gone flawless a few times. I wish there were some kind of ranking system for it to give us shit people at least a little bit of a chance 

[Janski]

Yep, I was kinda hoping to be consumed by Destiny all over again, but with a Hunter at 301 and Titan at 297, I've logged on twice this week and done the milestones and that's it.

 

I'm starting to look for other games to play, I realise this was probably part of Bungie's master plan but, being honest I disappointed.

[K]

I quite like the fact that I don't feel the need to play every day, it's liberating. I look forward to having a session every week, but I don't feel anxious about not doing the heroic strikes / Vanguard bounties / weekly crucible etc. I can play Destiny without it being the only game I play.

[Broker]

Out of interest, do the people not enjoying it play any other FPS games which are online multiplayer or co-op? Is it just in Destiny that people want the numbers to tick up constantly? 

 

I just fucking love the feeling of the combat. I feel like I could play it forever even if there wasn’t any loot or levelling at all. 

[HarryBizzle]

Do you mostly play in a fireteam or alone, Broker? If you play in a fireteam, then I can understand it but if you're on your own, doing the same repetitive public events and things gets old fast.

 

 

Anyway, I haven't had time to play much this week. Looking to get back to it after the reset - I need to get Sturm/Rat King/Mida. Should I be at least 265 before going for those to get the most out of the level they drop at?

[Broker]

I play on my own. I do miss the fun of chatting to the friends I used to play the first game with, but I fundamentally played that alone as well. There’s a lot of stuff to do, the only reason to grind the same things is to obsessively increase the arbitrary numbers. I’m playing because I enjoy the combat, either in interestingly designed encounters or endlessly changing PvP combat. I played a lot of Battlefield 4 online alone too, but never because of the level increases or because I wanted more battlepacks. 

[Shimmyhill]

23 minutes ago, Broker said:

Out of interest, do the people not enjoying it play any other FPS games which are online multiplayer or co-op? Is it just in Destiny that people want the numbers to tick up constantly? 

 

I just fucking love the feeling of the combat. I feel like I could play it forever even if there wasn’t any loot or levelling at all. 

 

No point comparing other FPS games imo as Destiny is a terrible online PvP compared to Battlefield, Titanfall, R6, Splats etc etc it’s mainly a PvE game you play with mates with crack like qualities when it’s got content to play and rewards to aim for!

[Nathan Wind]

18 minutes ago, Broker said:

 Is it just in Destiny that people want the numbers to tick up constantly? 

 

Nah. I think it's just missing a bit of challenge really.  The strikes are definitely my favourite part.  They're all I want to play, really, but they're just so easy at the moment.  I think it would benefit hugely from a choice of difficulties like the old ones had.

 

[HarryBizzle]

29 minutes ago, Broker said:

I play on my own. I do miss the fun of chatting to the friends I used to play the first game with, but I fundamentally played that alone as well. There’s a lot of stuff to do, the only reason to grind the same things is to obsessively increase the arbitrary numbers. I’m playing because I enjoy the combat, either in interestingly designed encounters or endlessly changing PvP combat. I played a lot of Battlefield 4 online alone too, but never because of the level increases or because I wanted more battlepacks. 

 

Fair enough. At the moment I haven't played with a single person on voice coms so am keen to do that and see how that influences my enjoyment of the game.\

 

As Nathan says, the Strikes are very easy at the moment and I'm not overly interested in the PvP so I do feel like I'm running out of interesting things to do on my own.

[Weavus]

31 minutes ago, Nathan Wind said:

Nah. I think it's just missing a bit of challenge really.  The strikes are definitely my favourite part.  They're all I want to play, really, but they're just so easy at the moment.  I think it would benefit hugely from a choice of difficulties like the old ones had.

 

I know I keep harping on about it but... Prestige Nightfall 

[Broker]

37 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

No point comparing other FPS games imo as Destiny is a terrible online PvP compared to Battlefield, Titanfall, R6, Splats etc etc it’s mainly a PvE game you play with mates with crack like qualities when it’s got content to play and rewards to aim for!

 

I disagree conpletely. It’s a completely different thing to Battlefield, but I absolutely love the PvP. The gunplay is 100x better than any other game and the abilities and movement make it feel completely unique. There’s also literally tens of thousands of people playing it, which suggests that your opinion is far from the universal truth you seem to think it is.

 

35 minutes ago, Nathan Wind said:

Nah. I think it's just missing a bit of challenge really.  The strikes are definitely my favourite part.  They're all I want to play, really, but they're just so easy at the moment.  I think it would benefit hugely from a choice of difficulties like the old ones had.

 

 

Agreed I guess, I’d like the difficulty between regular and Nightfall back too (heroic?). 

 

9 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

Fair enough. At the moment I haven't played with a single person on voice coms so am keen to do that and see how that influences my enjoyment of the game.\

 

As Nathan says, the Strikes are very easy at the moment and I'm not overly interested in the PvP so I do feel like I'm running out of interesting things to do on my own.

 

I can see that too, it sounds like you’d love the Nightfall  

[Gorf King]

I think there are a few communities of Destiny players, and I think some of them are misunderstanding how the endgame in D1 worked for others. It wasn't about making numbers 'tick up arbitrarily' - there were numbers but they weren't arbitrary. You wanted the highest possible light level because that made the hardest content a bit easier. You wanted the best gear because a) it was super exciting in itself, and b) stuff like the raid armour made the raid easier or more efficient to run. The way it generally worked is that you mastered the normal mode raid and then grinded it to get the raid gear, and that made the hard mode raid a bit more palatable, and then you beat and then grinded that, and then the challenge modes appeared and gave you some special shit if you were lucky, like ships and emblems and what not. Or in the case of the remixed 390 raids, you got the old Y1 primary weapons with burns back, and special armour ornaments and stuff.

 

I can only imagine that people who think the endgame complaints are about 'arbitrary numbers' never really did the D1 endgame, so don't get why some people are disappointed with the D2 endgame so far by comparison. It wasn't about numbers, but about challenges that are fun to play, and to replay over and over for rewards that were great. It's these two components - the great co-op gameplay that was genuinely challenging to teams, and the rewards we all slavered over, that made an addictive one-two sucker punch which elicited hundreds or thousands of hours of repeat play. In my (and I know many others') opinion, the endgame here hasn't got the same level of enjoyment in the gameplay - some of the prestige nightfalls excepted, for they are great - and none of it has the same level of rewards as we've become used to in D1. The raid armour doesn't have raid perks, so getting it doesn't feel like it makes you any better at the raid, for the harder modes coming. The HM raid doesn't raise your light, and you don't need it for stuff like Iron Banner any more, as that's not dependent on gear. And the gameplay of the raid itself just isn't, imo, anywhere near as enjoyable to replay on its own terms as the raids in D1.

 

It's not all about gear or power levels - and my continuing enjoyment of the Nightfalls is testament to that (they're more fun and more of an enjoyable challenge than the raid, imo) - but, again, it's simply about recognising that many people enjoyed the feeling of progression, of unlocking new capabilities, or getting more powerful, that D1's endgame provided. Which is a staple of the endgame of almost all RPGs, and certainly all MMOs. The lack of consequence or feeling of progression in D2's endgame so far undermines it as a rewarding RPG. The gunplay itself is still rock-solid (though I think they've fucked up PvP personally by restricting everything to 4s and taking away the over-the-top abilities and weapon power of D1, making it more like just any other multiplayer shooter). But the raid combat scenarios (unlike many of the Nightfall ones) don't really test that or provide a very replayable challenge, and the rewards for doing so just aren't appealing enough.

 

I realise this is just repetition on my part, but every time someone refers to endgame progression as 'arbitrary numbers' it seems somehow they're still not getting it. It was never just about numbers, and even when numbers were involved they were far from arbitrary in D1. That was the point of the progression game. You had to keep beating the hardest content and get rewarded to have a better chance at beating the hardest stuff that would come out next. It might be great to get rid of the numbers altogether - so why put them in the early and mid game at all?, you might ask - but even if they did that, they'd have to come up with some other way of marking and rewarding progression to give D2 the addictive qualities of the first. Like, if you're a PvP fiend, you'll be liking those ranked matches, yeah? Which D2 doesn't have. No progression. And Destiny, which is primarily a PvE game, likewise lacks any real sense of progression or reward in its PvE endgame.

 

I mean, obviously that's a flaw, right? Won't stop me having a go at the prestige NF most weeks just for the crack, and the challenge, but that doesn't prevent me being able to see the flaws in the endgame. It just doesn't feel as rewarding to play - and therefore isn't as addictive - as D1. And yeah, I do like games that are so great to play that you feel yourself wanting to play them all the time, and other games rarely get a look in unless they're absolutely top drawer. D1 was one of those. D2 in its current form really isn't. That might be a good thing for other games, and other activities outside of games, but I don't see it as a good thing for D2.

[Shimmyhill]

4 minutes ago, Broker said:

 

I disagree conpletely. It’s a completely different thing to Battlefield, but I absolutely love the PvP. The gunplay is 100x better than any other game and the abilities and movement make it feel completely unique. There’s also literally tens of thousands of people playing it, which suggests that your opinion is far from the universal truth you seem to think it is.

 

 

Of course people play it, it’s part of the reward loop and at the moment one of a few ways to get high power weapons/armour. I wish PvP was better as our clan played loads in the original and if there was nothing to do it was always there until the broke the matchmaking. Now it’s just a mess of piss poor connections hidden by Bungie so you can’t see how bad they are and no ability to chose a game mode so you can avoid the hideous supremacy mode or now ruined control  

 

 

[Nathan Wind]

I'm actually not that keen on what they've done with the nightfalls, tbh. I liked the old ones, where they took a long time, and felt like a real war of attrition against almost insurmountable odds. While I accept that they've made the new ones challenging, it's not in a way I particularly enjoy. I hate the short time limits.

 

I don't want to sound too pissy and moany. I have enjoyed what I've played. But despite first appearances looking incredibly positive, I just don't think there's enough breadth, or crucially, choice of content at 280+.

[SweatyTravolta]

26 minutes ago, Shimmyhill said:

 

Of course people play it, it’s part of the reward loop and at the moment one of a few ways to get high power weapons/armour. I wish PvP was better as our clan played loads in the original and if there was nothing to do it was always there until the broke the matchmaking. Now it’s just a mess of piss poor connections hidden by Bungie so you can’t see how bad they are and no ability to chose a game mode so you can avoid the hideous supremacy mode or now ruined control  

 

 

 

you mean the two best game modes in Destiny 2?

[Shimmyhill]

12 minutes ago, SweatyTravolta said:

 

you mean the two best game modes in Destiny 2?

[instasis]

Hit a wall with my arc build at 272 this week, so decided I'm going to make sure I have 2 other sets of armour for solar and void as well. These need bulking up, which suddenly means I have a reason to grind loot. Yay!

[Broker]

C’mon Gorf, if you’re going to write one of your ten thousand word “you’re playing it wrong” essays in response to my post you could at least quote me.

[Gorf King]

13 minutes ago, Broker said:

C’mon Gorf, if you’re going to write one of your ten thousand word “you’re playing it wrong” essays in response to my post you could at least quote me.

 

That do you? 

 

It's just odd hearing about how an RPG is just grinding meaningless numbers. D1 wasn't about meaningless numbers at all. It's not so much that you're playing the game wrong, but mischaracterising it by saying that. It was all about that challenging and rewarding co-op endgame for, I suspect, most people who played it regularly. It's fine if you couldn't, or wouldn't, play the co-op endgame of D1 because you solo'd the game. Great. Obviously it's not for everyone. But if you're playing either game literally alone I don't see how you can make a valid comparison between the two games in their totality when many of their activities do require co-ordinated team play. That's not my weird take on it. That's the way the game is designed, for better or worse. 

 

PS It's 874 words. I guess you mustn't have written many essays either.

[Lyrical Donut]

4 hours ago, Captain LeChuck said:

The bugginess of this is starting to grate now. I'm stuck on a black screen listening to Tess spout her shite about a "hypnorhythmic festival of controlled movement". I can go to the iinventory, but when I go back it's just a black screen, and I can't access the director either. Nothing like this happened in D1. 

 

There was a network issue where I couldn't even sign in for well over week in D1, it affected plenty of others too.

[Oz]

the decision to remove raid gear perks that are raid specific in particular boggles the mind. I just can't understand how that makes sense. I remember one issue they have stated is that everyone in the end game ended up always wearing the same armour. but surely there is a way to fix that other than removing raid perks altogether. maybe it was an effort to make the raid less buggy by removing variables? it is still massively broken anyway. extra damage to beast handlers? makes you harder to detect by the beasts? a helmet that would highlight beast locations or flower locations? boots that make you stick to the fucking ground when psions push you up? maybe the prestige version of the raid gear will have raid perks? 

 

13 hours ago, Gorf King said:

The raid armour doesn't have raid perks, so getting it doesn't feel like it makes you any better at the raid, for the harder modes coming. The HM raid doesn't raise your light, and you don't need it for stuff like Iron Banner any more, as that's not dependent on gear. And the gameplay of the raid itself just isn't, imo, anywhere near as enjoyable to replay on its own terms as the raids in D1.