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The Last of Us Part 2 - Now updated for PS5 for at 60fps


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7 hours ago, Super Craig said:

 

She didn't write the first one either.

 

1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

She didn't write the previous one either though, did she?

 

1 hour ago, gooner4life said:

 

No

OK OK I WAS WRONG IM SORRY LEAVE ME ALONE

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I think the trailer set people off looking for meaning that wasnt there, but I think what's is going on is more straightforward. The Fireflies symbol signifies they are taking a breather in a firefly 'base', Joel has clearly already told Ellie about the true events of the previous game, including and specifically the ending, and they are now travelling the country with the purpose of eliminating every last Firely member they can find. Joel is walking through the rooms making sure they've got everyone there, while Ellie has picked up someone's guitar and having a quick play. Joel is noting how Ellie is actually even more of an aggressor than him when it came to offing everyone there, he's older now and while not more forgiving of them, he at least can see that they did have a reason for their actions.  Ellie, however sees absolutely none of that, and won't stop until she's executed every last mother fucking one of them.

 

That's my take anyway.

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42 minutes ago, angel said:

I think the trailer set people off looking for meaning that wasnt there, but I think what's is going on is more straightforward. The Fireflies symbol signifies they are taking a breather in a firefly 'base', Joel has clearly already told Ellie about the true events of the previous game, including and specifically the ending, and they are now travelling the country with the purpose of eliminating every last Firely member they can find. Joel is walking through the rooms making sure they've got everyone there, while Ellie has picked up someone's guitar and having a quick play. Joel is noting how Ellie is actually even more of an aggressor than him when it came to offing everyone there, he's older now and while not more forgiving of them, he at least can see that they did have a reason for their actions.  Ellie, however sees absolutely none of that, and won't stop until she's executed every last mother fucking one of them.

 

That's my take anyway.

I don't think that really fits with the ending of the last game though

Spoiler

She was ok with dying. The one thing she wanted most was a meaningful death. Finding out that the fireflies could have actually produced a cure that involved killing her would make her more likely to want to kill Joel than the fireflies, as that means he took that decision from her and then lied about it.

 

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42 minutes ago, angel said:

Joel has clearly already told Ellie about the true events of the previous game, including and specifically the ending, and they are now travelling the country with the purpose of eliminating every last Firely member they can find. Joel is walking through the rooms making sure they've got everyone there, while Ellie has picked up someone's guitar and having a quick play. Joel is noting how Ellie is actually even more of an aggressor than him when it came to offing everyone there, he's older now and while not more forgiving of them, he at least can see that they did have a reason for their actions.  Ellie, however sees absolutely none of that, and won't stop until she's executed every last mother fucking one of them.

 

That's my take anyway.

 

I find this utterly bizarre. My take on the ending was that Ellie would have happily gone along with what the Fireflies wanted if it meant finding a cure and she highly suspected that Joel was lying to her anyway. 

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46 minutes ago, angel said:

I think the trailer set people off looking for meaning that wasnt there, but I think what's is going on is more straightforward. The Fireflies symbol signifies they are taking a breather in a firefly 'base', Joel has clearly already told Ellie about the true events of the previous game, including and specifically the ending, and they are now travelling the country with the purpose of eliminating every last Firely member they can find. Joel is walking through the rooms making sure they've got everyone there, while Ellie has picked up someone's guitar and having a quick play. Joel is noting how Ellie is actually even more of an aggressor than him when it came to offing everyone there, he's older now and while not more forgiving of them, he at least can see that they did have a reason for their actions.  Ellie, however sees absolutely none of that, and won't stop until she's executed every last mother fucking one of them.

 

That's my take anyway.

 I have a feeling that Joel isn't actually going to be still alive in this game. I think maybe they are going to pull some kind of "Reznov" from Black Ops and she is just imagining him there. I think you will only play as Ellie the whole game, then it turns it out later that he was dead the whole time, perhaps he even died in THIS specific scene. For example Joel mysteriously just walking into that house when it looks like everything is completely abandoned was suspect, (it almost looked like he just came out of nowhere) the "heavenly" white light shining through could be symbolic of him being some kind of "guardian angel" to Ellie at this point after his death, and the bloodied hand in the frame might be there to foreshadow this.

 

However, that is just my initial guess with little to no evidence to base it on. I imagine that I am absolute completely wrong but I think it would be a very interesting thing for them to play with, and I just didn't really expect them to have a living Joel in the second game.

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48 minutes ago, angel said:

I think the trailer set people off looking for meaning that wasnt there, but I think what's is going on is more straightforward. The Fireflies symbol signifies they are taking a breather in a firefly 'base', Joel has clearly already told Ellie about the true events of the previous game, including and specifically the ending, and they are now travelling the country with the purpose of eliminating every last Firely member they can find. Joel is walking through the rooms making sure they've got everyone there, while Ellie has picked up someone's guitar and having a quick play. Joel is noting how Ellie is actually even more of an aggressor than him when it came to offing everyone there, he's older now and while not more forgiving of them, he at least can see that they did have a reason for their actions.  Ellie, however sees absolutely none of that, and won't stop until she's executed every last mother fucking one of them.

 

That's my take anyway.

 

I'm so glad you don't work at naughty dog.

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1 hour ago, angel said:

I think the trailer set people off looking for meaning that wasnt there, but I think what's is going on is more straightforward. The Fireflies symbol signifies they are taking a breather in a firefly 'base', Joel has clearly already told Ellie about the true events of the previous game, including and specifically the ending, and they are now travelling the country with the purpose of eliminating every last Firely member they can find. Joel is walking through the rooms making sure they've got everyone there, while Ellie has picked up someone's guitar and having a quick play. Joel is noting how Ellie is actually even more of an aggressor than him when it came to offing everyone there, he's older now and while not more forgiving of them, he at least can see that they did have a reason for their actions.  Ellie, however sees absolutely none of that, and won't stop until she's executed every last mother fucking one of them.

 

That's my take anyway.

 

What on earth is the justification for killing all of these people (the fireflies)?

 

Like I said, it's disturbing seeing that small clique who after experiencing TLOU were all ''YEAH, FUCK, MURDER EVERYONE!'', like it was some bellicose ode to the purifying moral power of killing rather than a sad, sad tale about how terrible violence is.

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17 hours ago, Napole0n said:

I've tried the original game twice, liked it a bit better second time but for some reason I just don't enjoying playing it enough to keep going on. And I bloody love every Uncharted game to bits so it can't be Naughty Dog fatigue. This looks amazing again, but if it's more endless trekking through ruins moving ladders while having gloomy conversations and throwing bricks to distract annoying monsters I'm not sure if I'll get on board.

 

Honestly, stick with it. 

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I think someone should probably edit the thread title a bit to say MASSIVE SPOILERS for the first game just in case, as it would be a shame to spoil it for those yet to experience it, even though you would assume anyone in this thread already has.

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One of the things I really liked about TLOU was that the combat was indeed not 'enjoyable'. I used to actively avoid it wherever possible, and when it was triggered I clenched my teeth and grimly got on with it. The fact that I started out not very good at it but improved with practice and upgrades to a certain degree didn't take away how horrible the experience was every time. I never became a combat god, it always felt lethal and ugly, and I never thought 'hey, I'll replay that last section because I loved that part where I pulled off all those crazy great moves!' Getting through the always messy and chaotic fights brought a sense of relief more than anything else. I thought that was a great way to handle Joel's violence - with a sense of dread and revulsion. So if that and the 'gloomy conversations' don't appeal I don't see that improving as you go through the game.

 

One of the other things I loved about TLOU was the moral ambiguity of it. It's a pretty bleak game, with a pessimistic outlook, and the fact that people still argue about the wrongs and rights of it all must be satisfying to the writers. Whatever the ambiguity, though (hint: Joel is an emotionally-broken, self-obsessed rage monster with no functioning empathy gland), I can't see any motivation for Ellie in wanting to kill the Fireflies because they were going to off her to try to cure the disease. It is, as has been pointed out, something she hinted at being prepared to sacrifice herself for. She was the one with the youthful idealism, and surely the main thematic thrust of part two will be the slow unearthing of what stripped her of that, when the events of the original game didn't seem to have at the time. I assume Joel's responsible in some way - that's what happens when you have a mass murdering psycho for a doting surrogate father - and he might end up not liking what he sees in the mirror in the sequel when he looks at Ellie. And maybe he realises through her violence how his has spiralled out of control. So yeah, could end up being some sort of redemption tale, corny or otherwise, for him.

 

Because given what he did in the first part, he certainly needs it.

 

Edit: good idea, Benny. Though if you still haven't played TLOU I'd have to assume you're allergic to Sony consoles or just never fancied the game anyway and therefore couldn't give a shit about spoilers.

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1 hour ago, Punished Smitty said:

 

What on earth is the justification for killing all of these people (the fireflies)?

 

Like I said, it's disturbing seeing that small clique who after experiencing TLOU were all ''YEAH, FUCK, MURDER EVERYONE!'', like it was some bellicose ode to the purifying moral power of killing rather than a sad, sad tale about how terrible violence is.

 

 

I think your take on things is very reductive and I think it's more likely that it's designed to be morally ambiguous rather than a tale about how horrible violence is. 

 

I found myself ultimately agreeing with what Joel did. 

 

Spoiler

It seemed to me that no one in that world was particularly worth saving. Even the humans were a bunch of scumbags.

 

How would you feel about what he did if it had been his daughter they were planning on carving up?

 

There are certainly themes around losing and regaining your humanity. I certainly don't think he should have let them take someone so important in the hopes it might (but probably won't) save a bunch of savages. 

 

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2 hours ago, Wroth said:

I don't think that really fits with the ending of the last game though

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She was ok with dying. The one thing she wanted most was a meaningful death. Finding out that the fireflies could have actually produced a cure that involved killing her would make her more likely to want to kill Joel than the fireflies, as that means he took that decision from her and then lied about it.

 

 

she was ok sacrificing herself to a noble cause, thinking she was "the one", when really she was one of loads and it probably wasnt going to work, and the Firefiles weren't very gracious about any of it.

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1 hour ago, Punished Smitty said:

 

What on earth is the justification for killing all of these people (the fireflies)?

 

Like I said, it's disturbing seeing that small clique who after experiencing TLOU were all ''YEAH, FUCK, MURDER EVERYONE!'', like it was some bellicose ode to the purifying moral power of killing rather than a sad, sad tale about how terrible violence is.

 

See my reply to wroth, I thought they were dicks. They were held up as some sort of great saviours, where in fact they were a ramshackle bunch of power hungry arseholes with little regard for human life after all. Ellie wasn't the miracle child, she was one of many, it probably would have failed, and they weren't very nice about any of it.

 

I don't get where you're extracting these other statements from though, I don't recall anyone at all saying anything remotely like 'yeah fuck murder everyone'. The point of TLOU that it did so well is that everthing has shades of grey, there was no magic solution, only the sacrifice of a child to sort of try and find a cure that was pretty much too late to save everyone with anyway. The Fireflies were already drunk on their own moral power in doing this, imagining them travelling the country doling out "cures" to those worthy would have been the likely outcome, even if they did manage to extract and develop a cure using their ramshackle equipment.

 

The only real way to save that world would be to contain the infected and wipe them out systematically, while slowly rebuilding humanity in compounds. It was less of a tale about the terrible nature of violence as the ability of people to use moral arguments to construct their own rules and laws, to pretend that the means justify the ends. Like that twat who captured and attempted to rape Ellie, or the roving gangs in the city, and then finally the Fireflies themselves. All examples of people using ends (pretending to be a great leader, the gangs needing supplies to survive, the Fireflies taking what they needed out of their noble cause), to justify their unpleasant means of getting them. That was the theme of the whole game, and the final posing of the question of should you sacrifice humanity (ie: killing a child) for the sake of some wider cause. The game was Joel's personal story, and in his world, he chose 'no' to that question.  Having seen what he had alongside him (as the player), I agreed entirely with his decision.

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My take on Ellie and the ending...
 

Spoiler

she was okay with death because she'd lost everyone, she found purpose and meaning in the self-sacrifice which is usually typical in these kind of stories.

 

That's why the ending is so impactful, it's a reversal of that typical journey. We look at Joel as being the selfish prick of the story but she knew he was lying. When she replied 'okay' we were witnessing her choosing to step away from her altruism and toward the safety of his narcissism and self-delusion.

 

If the Fireflies turned up five years later I could imagine the urge to protect that safety would be far stronger than the need for truth.

 

That's why I think a lot of people were hesitant about a sequel following the same characters, we know too much about them. A redemption tale might contradict the world of the first game and the people we've seen to survive it.

 

Looking forward to seeing what they do with it.

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On 04/12/2016 at 16:34, HarryBizzle said:

 

 

I think your take on things is very reductive and I think it's more likely that it's designed to be morally ambiguous rather than a tale about how horrible violence is. 

 

I found myself ultimately agreeing with what Joel did. 

 

  Hide contents

It seemed to me that no one in that world was particularly worth saving. Even the humans were a bunch of scumbags.

 

How would you feel about what he did if it had been his daughter they were planning on carving up?

 

There are certainly themes around losing and regaining your humanity. I certainly don't think he should have let them take someone so important in the hopes it might (but probably won't) save a bunch of savages. 

 

 

Haha, this is literally the bilge I was thinking of when I started talking about it in the PSX thread.

 

The morality on display here is incredible. You're literally describing the surviving population of the world - possibly many millions of people - as 'savages' who deserve to die (based on the actions the tiny % of the population that Joel runs into) because Joel is a psychopath without empathy who can't think of anyone's interests except his own. You cast judgement on all of these people because of the actions of a few - those who Joel fought with - because they engaged in everything Joel did like violence and murder. Because they were trying to survive just like Joel. Because they had their own things they weren't willing to give up, maybe their own Ellies at home.

 

This lack of humanity in trying to understand what everyone is going through and simply eliding that to present a comfortable narrative where Joel is rough but righteous man who is doing the right thing - that's baffling to me. You have no idea what those people are like, really. You have no idea if they're a protector in their own narrative or someone else's. You don't know their character, what their own story of survival is. 

 

The dehumanising language used to describe Joel's adversaries (scum, savages etc), whilst praising the resolute commitment of Joel to ultra-violence in aid of his own selfish needs, is notable. You're praising a man who is doing much of what of the 'savages' are doing. The whole picture of Joel prior to his meeting Ellie is a guy who has probably killed a bunch of people and is fine with hurting people to get what he wants.

 

This heroic elevation of his own grimy concerns over those of the people he kills on his way - or indeed over the larger interests of the entire human race - and all because he suffered a loss that surely everyone in this nightmare scenario has, is remarkable and disgusting to me. 

 

It's like the leftie gamer version of the facist appreciation of sheer marshall strength.

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30 minutes ago, angel said:

All examples of people using ends (pretending to be a great leader, the gangs needing supplies to survive, the Fireflies taking what they needed out of their noble cause), to justify their unpleasant means of getting them. 

 

Oh my, the irony. Joel is literally doing the same thing. 

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32 minutes ago, angel said:

 

 

I don't get where you're extracting these other statements from though, I don't recall anyone at all saying anything remotely like 'yeah fuck murder everyone'.

 

Except, uh, some people really did say stuff like that.

 

Oh it was so satisfying when Joel SLAUGHTERED all those BASTARDS, i've got a little daughter and if anyone comes near her I swear I'll do time. 

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