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The Last of Us Part 2 - Now updated for PS5 for at 60fps


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1 hour ago, Down by Law said:

What was the last 3rd person game you played with prone mechanics with stealth and gunplay integrated into it?

 

God, I dunno, it's not the kind of thing that sticks in my mind - Max Payne?

 

Totally disagree with this:

 

1 hour ago, Down by Law said:

Well there's only so much you can do with the 3rd person action game template in fairness.

 

Just calling it a template is part of the problem. It's Sony and their studios that are stuck in this generic pattern. Big production values but forgettable gameplay. I've watched all the spoilers and leaks of TLOU2 and it just looks...okay. Stunning presentation but only okay as a game. Mash square to escape. Really?

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I think the problem here is Ellie 'knowing' isn't black and white.

She clearly suspects Joel may be lying because she asks him to swear on it. And the look on her face after he does is not relief but inner conflict.

She WANTS to believe him and is trying to assuage her doubts. And the alternative is too horrible to face.

It's pretty much a rite of passage to sense flaws in the guardians around us as children only to confront them in early adulthood. At the moment the truth of the situation is too momentus and it is very believable that someone of Ellie's age and experience would choose to believe assurances that give her short term security. She knows but doesn't know. She is in denial.

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24 minutes ago, barkbat said:

I think the problem here is Ellie 'knowing' isn't black and white.

She clearly suspects Joel may be lying because she asks him to swear on it. And the look on her face after he does is not relief but inner conflict.

She WANTS to believe him and is trying to assuage her doubts. And the alternative is too horrible to face.

It's pretty much a rite of passage to sense flaws in the guardians around us as children only to confront them in early adulthood. At the moment the truth of the situation is too momentus and it is very believable that someone of Ellie's age and experience would choose to believe assurances that give her short term security. She knows but doesn't know. She is in denial.

 

That is what she does imo, yes. She believes him because she chooses to show trust and love in a world full of hate and uncertainty. She may suspect things because in this world it makes sense to suspect everything and everyone, but when she makes the choice to believe someone in this world it is a monumental moment for the game and Ellie as a human. The fact that Joel is lying to her and the reasons behind that lie makes him a tragic, tragic man and the entire thing dark as fuck. 

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I would say that 'chooses' is exactly the point.

 

She neither believes him outright nor knows for sure that it's a lie. She has doubts, it's impossible to take the voice acting or facial capture any other way, and she knows that Joel has the motivation to lie but because of the reasons you've explained, she makes the decision that she will believe him. That's not quite the same as believing him. Just as Joel develops the motivation to lie, Ellie develops the motivation to accept the uncertainty. 

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27 minutes ago, Stanshall said:

I would say that 'chooses' is exactly the point.

 

She neither believes him outright nor knows for sure that it's a lie. She has doubts, it's impossible to take the voice acting or facial capture any other way, and she knows that Joel has the motivation to lie but because of the reasons you've explained, she makes the decision that she will believe him. That's not quite the same as believing him. Just as Joel develops the motivation to lie, Ellie develops the motivation to accept the uncertainty. 


That’s a bit of a technicality though because believing something is always a choice. She makes that choice because she trusts him enough and asking him to swear to it is the last small step for her to decide and believe what he says.

 

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Please, not this forgettable gameplay shite talk again. I really can't think of many third-person games that offer the amount of different systems all blending seamlessly, open level design and interesting enemy AI that encourages different approaches and on the fly experimentation like this does. Save for one, The Phantom Pain. No coincidence then that previews of this game compared it to Kojima's game.

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36 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:


That’s a bit of a technicality though because believing something is always a choice. She makes that choice because she trusts him enough and asking him to swear to it is the last small step for her to decide and believe what he says.

 

 

That's a very interesting philosophical question, and I can understand now why we're narrowly on 'opposite' sides of a very thin line. I disagree but I appreciate exactly what you're saying, and I see how our different perspective on that one question inevitably informs our reading. 

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34 minutes ago, Stanshall said:

 

That's a very interesting philosophical question, and I can understand now why we're narrowly on 'opposite' sides of a very thin line. I disagree but I appreciate exactly what you're saying, and I see how our different perspective on that one question inevitably informs our reading. 


It’s a very thin line, yes. But ultimately she goes with him because she chooses to believe him, not because she chooses to allow him to lie to her in order not to be left alone and unprotected. She chooses trust over anything else, that is why Joel’s choice is so tragic, because he chooses to lie to keep her and she chooses to believe the lie because she thinks he is someone to trust. 
 

Druckmann had said that the original ending was actually Ellie believing Joel and living happily ever after in San Francisco, but they changed the last part because, as he said, that would be letting Joel off the hook easily. If Ellie was ‘into it’ there would be no “hook“ for Joel, meaning no price to pay. There is one, it’s losing Ellie because he lied and because he betrayed her trust and in the process endangered humanity because of his twisted and suffering mind.

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The thing is, Ellie knowing Joel is lying and Ellie being 'into it' (as you put it) are two different things. Accepting the lie is not an endorsement of what he's done and it's not because she still needs him, far from it. Ellie accepts Joel's lie because he needs it, not her. They're co-dependants. Joel doesn't carry the burden at the end, she does.

 

From my perspective, reading it any other way robs the character of her growth.

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Isn't there ambiguity around Joel's decision too? We're given enough evidence that the Fireflies don't know what they're doing, or are not acting entirely in good faith, to suggest that Joel is arguably justified in questioning their motives, and that it's not a simple matter of his dooming humanity for selfish reasons. It feels all wrong, his false breeziness immediately following the ultraviolence in particular, but I felt there was reasonable doubt as to an obvious alternative scenario from his point of view.

 

It's a big ambiguity sandwich at the end, that's what makes it a great ending. I mean, we're still thinking about it all these years later. I just hope the sequel hasn't jumped the shark.

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8 hours ago, CarloOos said:

The thing is, Ellie knowing Joel is lying and Ellie being 'into it' (as you put it) are two different things. Accepting the lie is not an endorsement of what he's done and it's not because she still needs him, far from it. Ellie accepts Joel's lie because he needs it, not her. They're co-dependants. Joel doesn't carry the burden at the end, she does.

 

From my perspective, reading it any other way robs the character of her growth.


Accepting the lie is an endorsement of what he’s done. She actually becomes as bad as him, as she chooses to indulge his lie over the good of mankind and pretend everything is ok in order not to hurt him. Which means that if there was a chance to do the right thing she would not do it to satisfy Joel’s sickness. That’s completely out of character for her and I can’t really see how becoming like him is growth. She had already chosen to sit on the operating table and do the right thing.

 

Her growth, after all she has been through, is trust. She chooses to believe him and trust him. She chooses humanity, while Joel’s decision is al about himself. Story really doesn’t work if Ellie becomes twisted too and she also chooses something for Joel’ sake. Joel has no price to pay then and I think Druckmann was quite clear that he does.

 

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12 hours ago, The Mighty Ash said:

 

I was hoping to see some exciting new mechanics, prone and jump are the new hotness!

 

It is a very generic video. At one point the co-game director says "I would say our overarching philosophy of how we approached designing the game mechanically, is 'how can we take things to the next, next level". That is one insight-free sentence.

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Spoiler

 

Except the story evidently does work that way, given that many people read it as such and feel that the narrative and character development are richer for that reading.

 

Your perspective feels more like you're determined to reach for a light/dark end for the respective characters, but the game doesn't present that. It is something more nuanced, messy and real. 

 

 

@Talk Show Host

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Nope, that's not fair either, @Stanshall. It's written purposefully to be ambigious and when a writer does that (sometimes in good faith, sometimes lazily to add 'depth') most of the top sensical takes are valid; there's no right or wrong. We'll just bicker about which we'd prefer it to be, usually what our brains first decided. Reason does play a part in likelihood of intent but ambiguity opens up the field a lot. Stating absolutes on intentionally ambiguous meanings is a wild goose chase. We should all be too long in the tooth for that by now. 

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Apologies, I didn't intend to deny his reading of it. After reading several posts where he said 'no, you see, it's this...', I was too brusque with my perspective. Anyway, yes, round in circles now. No harm intended. 

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35 minutes ago, Stanshall said:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Except the story evidently does work that way, given that many people read it as such and feel that the narrative and character development are richer for that reading.

 

Your perspective feels more like you're determined to reach for a light/dark end for the respective characters, but the game doesn't present that. It is something more nuanced, messy and real. 

 

 

@Talk Show Host

Spoiler

 

Of course it does, but it also works my way as well, which is also evident from the many people believing that, from players to critics.

 

There is nothing more real in my opinion than using the extremes of love and grief to portray our needs for connection and trust. Light and dark have nothing to do about it. Ellie makes a choice to trust him, not to become like him. This is about believing in humanity in all this mess and that is the reason Druckmann changed the ending as I said above. 

 

 

But no need to clutter the thread anymore, I think we can't really agree. For me it wouldn't be the end of the world if what you say was true anyway. It would be bad storytelling though. ;)

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1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:


Accepting the lie is an endorsement of what he’s done. She actually becomes as bad as him, as she chooses to indulge his lie over the good of mankind and pretend everything is ok in order not to hurt him. Which means that if there was a chance to do the right thing she would not do it to satisfy Joel’s sickness. That’s completely out of character for her and I can’t really see how becoming like him is growth. She had already chosen to sit on the operating table and do the right thing.

 

Her growth, after all she has been through, is trust. She chooses to believe him and trust him. She chooses humanity, while Joel’s decision is al about himself. Story really doesn’t work if Ellie becomes twisted too and she also chooses something for Joel’ sake. Joel has no price to pay then and I think Druckmann was quite clear that he does.

 

 

But she was unconscious when the Fireflies got her after almost drowning. She then doesn't wake until after the hospital so has no idea what happened and certainly didn't volunteer to go on the operating table in the knowledge she would be sacrificing herself. Yes, she may have done that anyway but its very deliberate that she is not given the choice. Ellie also has no idea the extent of what Joel has done, only that she doesn't believe his version of events. If she knew what he did to keep her alive she would be horrified and it is THAT truth that I think will be revealed in the sequel.

 

So Ellie accepting what Joel tells her even though she doesn't truly believe it doesn't tarnish her goodness, for want of a better word :) Ellie has no idea how twisted and dark Joel has become to keep her in his life... only that what he is telling her is what he needs to hold onto and she cant take that away from him or confront the impact it would have on her if she pushed him on it.

 

That's my final statement on it :D started Left Behind last night so will have an update on that soon.

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25 minutes ago, MardiganX said:

 

But she was unconscious when the Fireflies got her after almost drowning. She then doesn't wake until after the hospital so has no idea what happened and certainly didn't volunteer to go on the operating table in the knowledge she would be sacrificing herself. Yes, she may have done that anyway but its very deliberate that she is not given the choice. Ellie also has no idea the extent of what Joel has done, only that she doesn't believe his version of events. If she knew what he did to keep her alive she would be horrified and it is THAT truth that I think will be revealed in the sequel.

 

So Ellie accepting what Joel tells her even though she doesn't truly believe it doesn't tarnish her goodness, for want of a better word :) Ellie has no idea how twisted and dark Joel has become to keep her in his life... only that what he is telling her is what he needs to hold onto and she cant take that away from him or confront the impact it would have on her if she pushed him on it.

 

That's my final statement on it :D started Left Behind last night so will have an update on that soon.

 

I am sorry, if she has no idea or suspects what he has done, what is the point of the...point you are making? If she knows he lied -which is what you claim- then she knows something horrible has happened for him to lie. She lets go of any explanations and just moves on as a drone pretending in order for him to be happy? That makes no sense at all to me. Not for Ellie.

 

Please, if you have time, elaborate on a pm.

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2 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:


Accepting the lie is an endorsement of what he’s done. She actually becomes as bad as him, as she chooses to indulge his lie over the good of mankind and pretend everything is ok in order not to hurt him. Which means that if there was a chance to do the right thing she would not do it to satisfy Joel’s sickness. That’s completely out of character for her and I can’t really see how becoming like him is growth. She had already chosen to sit on the operating table and do the right thing.

 

Growth doesn't have to be positive. Based on the marketing I'm pretty sure the sequel is going to hammer home that Ellie is just as bad as Joel, and the end of the first game was the moment she sold her soul. I'll leave it there though.

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11 hours ago, Pob said:

 

It is a very generic video. At one point the co-game director says "I would say our overarching philosophy of how we approached designing the game mechanically, is 'how can we take things to the next, next level". That is one insight-free sentence.

 

This is the most over-used phrase since "cutting edge". We're taking game graphics to the next level. We're taking the way we deliver your curry to the next level. We're taking the way you control garden pests to the next level. Every fucker is in on it now. Meaningless. Boring. Mash square to escape.

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Left Behind done.

 

Spoiler

 

What a great little addition to the overall story. The mixed enemy areas were a nice surprise and it was great to play as Ellie more. The final combat section especially, which helped to flesh out the Ellie we meet at the start of Winter in the main game and what she has went through for Joel.

 

The ending was a little abrupt so not sure if I missed something between Ellie and Riley right before the credits roll. It leaves things as if its deliberately open about what could happen after they are both bitten even though we know how things play out, so felt odd not to elaborate a bit more on those final moments. Or maybe that is the point, for us to feel for them both and mainly Ellie as we know that what actually happens is more painful than Ellie could have imagined :(

 

 

Sufficiently hyped about next month now as if I wasn’t before. God, it’s going to be fucking spectacular isn’t it?!!

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