The Last of Us Part 2 - Now updated for PS5 for at 60fps

[David Kenny]

1 minute ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

How do you think culture shifts and progresses? By small groups of people whispering behind closed doors?

You've got this the wrong way around though. Culture was progressing marvelously until the internet allowed small groups of people whispering behind closed doors to shout their stupid, hateful opinions from the virtual rooftops. Ignoring them is the only way to demonstrate what a minority they are. Every time someone engages with them it gives them a legitimacy they don't deserve. 

[Stanley]

1 minute ago, Doctor Shark said:

What’s an “extreme lgbt story”? Like, porn? Or do you just mean that the very fact they are homosexual, in or at the least attempting to be in a relationship of some kind against the backdrop of a zombie apocalypse? 
 

Days Gone. Male protagonist tries to find wife in zombie apocalypse. Totally fine. 
 

Last of Us 2. Possibly similar plot at the very highest level, only LESBIANS!

This is the weirdness surrounding this whole debate with @sid and why some doubt his motives. How far is too far, he doesn’t seem to have an answer or any kind of example. 

[MechE]

 

6 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

How do you think culture shifts and progresses? By small groups of people whispering behind closed doors?

I fight every day to create spaces for minorities (including myself) to succeed in very white male dominated spaces. 

 

Allowing concern trolling about "let's not go too far" is not a useful part of this struggle.

[Lying Cat]

1 minute ago, Doctor Shark said:

What’s an “extreme lgbt story”?

 

It's an LGBT story with dutch angles and 90's MTV editing sensibilities. 

[Trigg]

 

2 minutes ago, Doctor Shark said:

What’s an “extreme lgbt story”? Like, porn? Or do you just mean that the very fact they are homosexual, in or at the least attempting to be in a relationship of some kind against the backdrop of a zombie apocalypse? 
 

Days Gone. Male protagonist tries to find wife in zombie apocalypse. Totally fine. 
 

Last of Us 2. Possibly similar plot at the very highest level, only LESBIANS!

 

Still don't know what @sid's point is if I'm honest. I mean extreme LGBT story? What makes it extreme?  

 

 

 

[Lying Cat]

1 minute ago, MechE said:

 

I fight every day to create spaces for minorities (including myself) to succeed in very white male dominated spaces. 

 

Allowing concern trolling about "let's not go too far" is not a useful part of this struggle.

 

I would like to think that the vehemence by which these ideas have been rejected by the forum would perhaps help? Sid is clearly a concern troll, and I absolutely accept that I've wasted my time "debating" with him, but the only other option is to just leave the opinions to stand.

 

(AGENDA ALERT! AGENDA ALERT! If only there was some button I could press to demonstrate my rejection of alt-right ideas without needing to wade in).

 

I think you put the mods in a really tough position about "allowing concern trolling" because concern trolling is, by it's nature quite similar to somebody having genuine concerns (as opposed to 'Genuine Concerns'), about a topic out of ignorance. That's how it always is. "Hey guys, look at this. It sounds pretty bad, what do you think? You don't agree? Well, I guess and I don't either, but I'd hate to see [Event X] happen if we let [Action Y] occur. I mean, isn't it better to tread carefully with sensitive issues? Perhaps we shouldn't try and move in this direction yet. Let it settle down a bit first".

 

You can't just ban Sid outright because even though he's obviously JAQing off, this isn't in itself against the terms of service. I'm personally quite content for mod intervention along the lines of "you're not answering any questions, answer or you're a troll and therefore bannable", as it backs up what the forum as a whole was trying to do.

[Stanley]

4 minutes ago, Trigg said:

 

 

Still don't know what @sid's point is if I'm honest. I mean extreme LGBT story? What makes it extreme?  

 

 

 

Doubt we’ll get a meaningful response. Tbh if what it results in is these alt right types being denied the game they want, a game which never even existed, then I’m all for it whatever it is. 

[Lying Cat]

9 minutes ago, Trigg said:

 

Still don't know what @sid's point is if I'm honest. I mean extreme LGBT story? What makes it extreme?  

 

 

His point is drawn from the fact that his sources are entirely alt-right Youtubers. Because these people are (as I've said) so desperate for equality not to gain a toe hold in the video game world, even the slightest hint of it is framed as an extreme. Because they're not actually under attack, and the hobby isn't about to collapse, they need to present this to people as something beyond the pale in the hopes of starting a proper call to action.

 

Because Sid is, basically, an empty vessel drifting in from the right, he's just parroting (man, the theme of this sentence is proper piratical) what they say without actually considering what it means for himself.

[MechE]

2 minutes ago, Lying Cat said:

 

I would like to think that the vehemence by which these ideas have been rejected by the forum would perhaps help? Sid is clearly a concern troll, and I absolutely accept that I've wasted my time "debating" with him, but the only other option is to just leave the opinions to stand.

 

(AGENDA ALERT! AGENDA ALERT! If only there was some button I could press to demonstrate my rejection of alt-right ideas without needing to wade in).

 

I think you put the mods in a really tough position about "allowing concern trolling" because concern trolling is, by it's nature quite similar to somebody having genuine concerns (as opposed to 'Genuine Concerns'), about a topic out of ignorance. That's how it always is. "Hey guys, look at this. It sounds pretty bad, what do you think? You don't agree? Well, I guess and I don't either, but I'd hate to see [Event X] happen if we let [Action Y] occur. I mean, isn't it better to tread carefully with sensitive issues? Perhaps we shouldn't try and move in this direction yet. Let it settle down a bit first".

 

You can't just ban Sid outright because even though he's obviously JAQing off, this isn't in itself against the terms of service. I'm personally quite content for mod intervention along the lines of "you're not answering any questions, answer or you're a troll and therefore bannable", as it backs up what the forum as a whole was trying to do.

I'm not saying anyone gets banned, or even reported. I just won't legitimise these ideas through debate.

[b00dles]

If this was all a ruse to show that negs would have shortened this whole debate then well done. 

 

Otherwise, I've had some lols at @sid s responses because they're completely daft. 

 

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and assume that the story of tlou2 isn't going to be anything like "it turns out the only way to not become a zombie is to become transsexual" so I don't know what LGBTQ agenda is really going to be pushed in this. 

 

I can easily foresee a situation whereby a lesbian character and their partner (who is possibly even trans) get into a situation where there are some bigoted idiots that try and do something horrible to them and you as the player end up killing them. 

Much like you have other horrors like cannibals in zombie movies and so on, these people will be shown to be "the bad guys" and quite rightly too.

Fuck 'em.

 

To be honest, if it was the former I wouldn't really care either, it would just seem a little silly.

Regardless, whatever the form it will take (if anything other than; there might be lesbians) i still don't understand what the problem is, unless you are also a bigoted idiot. 

[Lying Cat]

Just now, MechE said:

I'm not saying anyone gets banned, or even reported. I just won't legitimise these ideas through debate.

 

I can appreciate this and actually agree with you. It's better to deplatform this stuff; the problem is that when it's posted on a forum, the only way we can show our displeasure for it is to talk about it. Leaving it standing unmarked could be taken as tacit approval without wanting to commit publicly, and I absolutely would never risk using a sarcastic empathy tear in a situation like this.

[Talk Show Host]

19 minutes ago, David Kenny said:

You've got this the wrong way around though. Culture was progressing marvelously until the internet allowed small groups of people whispering behind closed doors to shout their stupid, hateful opinions from the virtual rooftops. Ignoring them is the only way to demonstrate what a minority they are. Every time someone engages with them it gives them a legitimacy they don't deserve. 

 

That is literally how nothing has ever happened in society though.

 

17 minutes ago, MechE said:

 

I fight every day to create spaces for minorities (including myself) to succeed in very white male dominated spaces. 

 

Allowing concern trolling about "let's not go too far" is not a useful part of this struggle.

 

"Allowing" it? So, we should just ban it and forbid it then? That sounds healthy.

 

I do not agree. Literally the most dangerous thing we can do is allowing this to go unchecked. Countering it with proper data and arguments is the best way. Even if it feels that its useless. 

[teddymeow]

12 minutes ago, Trigg said:

 

 

Still don't know what @sid's point is if I'm honest. I mean extreme LGBT story? What makes it extreme?  

 

 

 

 

Snowboarding...erm...dudes and dudettes...

 

That can be both extreme and radical!!

[Stanley]

2 minutes ago, MechE said:

I'm not saying anyone gets banned, or even reported. I just won't legitimise these ideas through debate.

Then again if it makes Sid consider things from another angle, a more inclusive and accepting one, that’s good isn’t it? It’s very easy to view those videos and accept them at face value without actually considering the truth or validity of those opinions - so at least coming here he and others doing the same (I think it was pos’d that video) are at least given some food for thought. I dunno  

[Professor Puzzles]

Being a gigantic hard-boiled egg, my favourite game series has always been Dizzy, and I feel the games industry's constant, unnecessary pandering to the human audience by making their characters all fleshy peoplebags will undoubtedly be their downfall as I, and my many fellow cogniscent ovoids will take our hard earned pounds and pennies elsewhere.

[Lying Cat]

2 minutes ago, Professor Puzzles said:

Being a gigantic hard-boiled egg, my favourite game series has always been Dizzy, and I feel the games industry's constant, unnecessary pandering to the human audience by making their characters all fleshy peoplebags will undoubtedly be their downfall as I, and my many fellow cogniscent ovoids will take our hard earned pounds and pennies elsewhere.

 

The struggle is real brother.

[Broker]

The well is already dry for jokes about extreme lgbt stories being Poochie extreme 

[MechE]

5 minutes ago, Lying Cat said:

 

I can appreciate this and actually agree with you. It's better to deplatform this stuff; the problem is that when it's posted on a forum, the only way we can show our displeasure for it is to talk about it. Leaving it standing unmarked could be taken as tacit approval without wanting to commit publicly, and I absolutely would never risk using a sarcastic empathy tear in a situation like this.

Some of the longer serving members here may remember one of the resident racists saying that one of the things that changed after 9/11 was that previously they'd have to whisper their views in polite society, they could just replace 'paki' with 'muslim' and they could talk freely.

 

This has happened everywhere, bigots have learned that as long as you don't say the "words" and just keep the debate alive, then progress is stifled.

 

I agree that it's better to talk about it, that's why I've made several posts and engaged in debate with many people. I'm discussing the concept that minorities and women should not have to tread softly in case they upset the current hegemony. What I'm refusing to do is debate what's the right number to set the racism dial to.

[David Kenny]

21 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

That is literally how nothing has ever happened in society though.

 

 

Positive change in society has never come from amplifying regressive voices. I mean look at the world. We're going backwards, and the reason is that hateful bigots are able to present themselves as the "silent" majority. You've got @sid in this very thread trying to present a few disgusting no-mark bigots on youtube as a "shit-storm". It's not worth the time to engage, and engaging doesn't work. These people are already lost, we can't save them, we just have to try and make sure they don't infect anybody else.

[Lying Cat]

8 minutes ago, David Kenny said:

 These people are already lost, we can't save them, we just have to try and make sure they don't infect anybody else.

 

I don't think anyone doubts that, though - but in my experience the best way to prevent infection is to offer an alternative viewpoint in the face of their filth. You're quite right, Sid isn't going to change his mind (sure, he claims that that he is also against bigotry, but his actual conduct in the thread makes his position easy to decipher), so we're left with the options of challenge the views and do the dance, or ban rapidly.

 

I don't agree that the debate here has been about where to "set the dial for acceptable Racism" (although I am absolutely completely sympathetic to MechE's comment here. All too often this can be seen), because Sid hasn't been reasoned with - he's been rebuffed, asked to explain and support his points and been absolutely nailed to the wall when he's been unable to do so. He looks fooling for even having brought it up, especially because his first line was to try and be both a simple messenger and rebuke us all for being unable to debate.

 

Would it be better to move this to a different thread as we've sort of moved well beyond TLoU in scope?

[JoeK]

42 minutes ago, teddymeow said:

 

Snowboarding...erm...dudes and dudettes...

 

That can be both extreme and radical!!

 

All I see is a perfect head-shot in my sniper sights.

 

Whether or not he was infected doesn't matter anymore.

[Captain Kelsten]

Also lol at "strong female" still being "female who acts like a normal human being instead of being a damsel in distress". 

 

You don't hear about strong male characters, so why do we hear about strong female characters?

 

I recently watched all of Battlestar Galactica for the first time. At the time it first came out, Starbuck was praised for being a "strong female character", but apparently that just means "woman who acts like a man" rather than her being a strong character because she wasn't a one dimensional screaming cleavage show. They toned it down in later series, but the first series in particular she was a whole lot of rootin tootin drinking smokin banging cliche male.  "Men can't identify with a woman unless she's just a man with tits!"

 

 

[BadgerFarmer]

58 minutes ago, b00dles said:

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and assume that the story of tlou2 isn't going to be anything like "it turns out the only way to not become a zombie is to become transsexual". 

But that would be magnificent. Likely far better than the actual story we're going to get from ND.

[b00dles]

4 minutes ago, BadgerFarmer said:

But that would be magnificent. Likely far better than the actual story we're going to get from ND.

Well yeah but I really can't see it being that and that's also the only sort of "agenda" it could push. As otherwise it's a case of 'trans people and lesbians exist' which is just a statement of fact. 

 

 

[teddymeow]

1 hour ago, Professor Puzzles said:

Being a gigantic hard-boiled egg, my favourite game series has always been Dizzy, and I feel the games industry's constant, unnecessary pandering to the human audience by making their characters all fleshy peoplebags will undoubtedly be their downfall as I, and my many fellow cogniscent ovoids will take our hard earned pounds and pennies elsewhere.

 

Can I poach this and use it as an eggs-ample the next time I'm having this kind of discussion about minorities in gaming?

[Cheyenne]

I'd like to point out that having taken five minutes to see how far into those videos Sid posted I could get (not far), now YouTube is recommending me a bunch of Jordan Peterson videos. Wow, it's almost as if there's a correlation.

[Bojangle]

Gotta love the algorithm! 

[Nate Dogg III]

So can we have negs back now, or 

[Flanders]

I’m a long time lurker but I found this conversation so strange I had to comment.

 

If I understand how this Last of Us 2 leak worked - it was all just the story and the cutscenes, right? So all these Youtubers getting het up about the game pushing the LGBTQ+ agenda - I presume that’s just through the cutscenes they’ve seen?

 

Because, regardless of the NaUgHtY D0g HaS nO GamEplaY narrative that dimwits like to push, I distinctly remember most of my 20-odd hour play through of the The Last of Us as being exciting third person stealth action and generally full of the kind of glorious wanton homicide that I assumed your average ‘gamer’ would thoroughly enjoy.

 

This action was bolted on to an absorbing meta game concerning the resource management, construction and allocation of shivs. In fact you could cheerfully play the entire game as a series of choices on whether to shiv a mushroom faced person or to open a door for supplies. 

 

And behind all that there was a good story.

 

So - for Last of Us 2, are all these Youtubers going to forgo the thrilling ultraviolence gameplay and no doubt massively expanded shiv management, just because they don’t like the cutscenes?
 

Isn’t...isn’t this what these people were complaining that Anita Sarkeesian et all were doing back in the day? Overlooking ‘real gaming quality’ because of a political and cultural position?

 

It’s fascinating. I guess you really do become what you hate. 

[George Clooney]

I wonder if sid watched Titanic thinking "man, why couldnt it just be about a ship sinking, and the survival of that, why did it have to focus on an extreme love story relating to inter-class relationships of that period?  I mean, its a bit much".

 

The truth is the uproar hasnt been caused by Ellie's sexuality, they are simply bolting that onto something else with a whooooooooole lot of projection to get outrage clicks from "concerned" people like sid or the perpetually offended by anything that isnt a story they can relate to (the irony being that 100% of these people are the kind that would un-ironically call people "snowflakes" while frothing at the mouth about a main character in a AAA title being trans).  Having seen the spoilers (by accident, people on imgur are shit) there is an element of the game that will potentially polarise people.  I can totally see why people would hear about the event thats kicked things off, especially outside the full context of the game, and think "well that sounds like bullshit".  But then people have added things on top to twist it to some "woke agenda", including using the appearance of some of the female characters (because they're not dressed like strippers) and what happens to some other characters as proof.  There will be people that wont like what happens for sure, and not for some right wing anti-sjw bollocks - its a risky narative element, and it could fall on its arse if not done properly.  Or, it could be really well done and be a very powerful moment. It'll get people talking for sure.

 

The thing about this is that its become the new thing whenever anything like this happens that the youtube outrage grifters start up and enable the "concerned" people like sid who dont really have issues with LGBT stories.....you know, they just feel like they're getting a bit extreme.  Because 20 people all with shouty youtube channels are a bit upset.  I mean, that must mean something, right?  Surely that feeling that sid has that a show with a number of strong female characters on...well, it's a bit much isnt it? Its bordering on obsession, really.  Never mind that other stories have character driven relationships as the centre.  Like the Walking Dead game was all about the relationship between Lee and Clem, it just happened to set it during a zombie apocalypse.  Thats fine.  Centering on a gay relationship in the middle of a virus outbreak?  Thats an agenda, and we dont take kindly to agendas round these parts.

 

It reminds me of when Boogie on youtube fell out with Anita Sarkeesian and so decided to try and argue that her advocacy for these kinds of issues was actually dangerous, to the point where he actually said it was killing people, and that his advocacy was right....except his advocacy was basically "be nice to the people oppressing you and hope that they come round, and stop pushing for equality like marriage rights, you should try waiting like 10 years and see if they dont mind then".  Lets just be honest - you cant say you support LGBT stories in media and then describe an LGBT lead story as "extreme".  Just admit you dont want to see LGBT stories in media unless they're hidden away enough for you to not have to acknowledge them.