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Star Trek Discovery


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10 hours ago, Alex W. said:

I think the studio has probably at this point concluded that the existing Star Trek timeline isn't a place you can tell consequential stories, because the setting is already very rigidly defined, from technology to politics, and even relatively small deviations are not acceptable to large swathes of the fanbase. Not me, but enough that they might as well not bother. The original pitch for this as a small-stakes, lower decks show was a good way of working around that by simply not being consequential, and the Picard show is probably going to be doing something similar, but future Star Trek is surely just going to have to be... Star Trek in its own future.

 

I'm curious as to what that will look like if

 

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a recognisable past Star Trek ship is part of that structure

 

of course. It occurs to me that both DS9 and Voyager were, in their own ways, efforts to get as far away geographically, politically, socially and technologically from TNG while retaining the framework that the audience understood. They literally each picked a quadrant of the galaxy where things hadn't happened yet and figured out ways to put TNG ships there.

 

I realise that the simple answer to this is always "tell a future Star Trek show long enough in the future that it's all different" but when you get that far away from ToS and TNG you might as well be setting up a whole new, original project and forget Star Trek altogether, right? You want to have phasers, transporters, shields and the warp drive.

 

You could have a show that started 5 minutes after the Voyager finale and do whatever you wanted, plot-wise. I know the Picard show is meant to be something different to TNG, but part of the appeal of it for me is finally seeing the continuation of the 24th century that Trek hit stop on (TV wise), 18 years ago. Which, amazingly, is the same length of time as between the end of Classic Trek and the start of TNG! If anything, the Disco time jump is way too big. I’d love to see them in the 25th or something! Do the same kind of update to the familiar elements that TNG did, back in the day.

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9 hours ago, Nicky said:

it was indeed. but there was very little peril. it was 90% nameless drone vs nameless crew member we never heard of. with 200+ "fighers" from two exploration vessels  we then had star wars droids that could have fixed critical issues with the ship. theres been no doubt that the visual effects of discovery have been nothing short of amazing. but peel back that thin veneer of space eye porn and you're left with a right load of old shite.

 

It’s definitely a problem that I felt much more tension in TNG’s space battles where you popped the champagne corks if you had more than 5 ship-to-ship FX shots, and of course DS9’s marvellously constructed setpieces.

 

There’s something very weightless about Discovery’s tone (maybe it’s that the writing is so atrocious), but apparently the new showrunner’s going to be really good so hopefully they’ll sort it out. 

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32 minutes ago, Eighthours said:

 

You could have a show that started 5 minutes after the Voyager finale and do whatever you wanted, plot-wise. I know the Picard show is meant to be something different to TNG, but part of the appeal of it for me is finally seeing the continuation of the 24th century that Trek hit stop on (TV wise), 18 years ago. Which, amazingly, is the same length of time as between the end of Classic Trek and the start of TNG! If anything, the Disco time jump is way too big. I’d love to see them in the 25th or something! Do the same kind of update to the familiar elements that TNG did, back in the day.

 

This show started with a plot that could easily have been done 5 minutes after Voyager, and been used to completely upend the status quo. 

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Yep. They really would not have had to change much to have a very similar plot taking place after the TNG era. And it would have got away from the need to constantly worry about cannon. Set it after Voyager and you can introduce whatever changes you want to. 10 minutes before TOS and it's slightly harder. 

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By long term Star Trek fans they presumably mean since they watched the first J.J. Abrams film?

 

Fun fact: any kid who watched that film when it came out is of course now old enough to write terrible editorial for popular nerd "culture" sites.

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4 hours ago, McCoy said:

Yep. They really would not have had to change much to have a very similar plot taking place after the TNG era. And it would have got away from the need to constantly worry about cannon. Set it after Voyager and you can introduce whatever changes you want to. 10 minutes before TOS and it's slightly harder. 

Substitute the Klingons with another race (maybe even create a new adversary for the Feds) and yes, it could’ve. The ship designs even look more suited to that timeframe.

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2 hours ago, Protocol Penguin said:

Substitute the Klingons with another race (maybe even create a new adversary for the Feds) and yes, it could’ve. The ship designs even look more suited to that timeframe.

 

It didn't need a new race. The Klingon Empire being in decline for a long time was a staple of the TNG era, and having religious fanatics cause a civil war and ultimately a more xenophobic attitude would have been entirely plausible. Given the Klingons were historically a Russia stand in, you could have moved the pieces around to get to something like the modern day relationship. Post Voyager you could also have run with the destruction of Romulus (assuming no licensing issues with the prequels), peaked in how the Cardissans dealt with losing the Dominion War and boom! the TNG era status quo is upended and lots to work with. 

 

DS9 era writers would have just chewed that shit up. 

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It's nice to know that a super-advanced AI still won't think to back itself up anywhere and is less resilient than your typical small office Windows domain, which will at least keep running from a secondary server should the main one fail..

Could have made dozens of copies of itself in the crews it spaced. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Benny said:

By long term Star Trek fans they presumably mean since they watched the first J.J. Abrams film?

 

Fun fact: any kid who watched that film when it came out is of course now old enough to write terrible editorial for popular nerd "culture" sites.

 

Don't remind me how long ago Dreamcast was. SEGA's still a thing in the public consciousness, right?!

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Alright. So I watched up to episode 9 of season 1 of The Expanse tonight, and then onto the last three of Disco S2.

 

WOOF - that's some gulf in quality.

 

So Control took control of dude from the old ship Burnedham was on. Fair dues. Can turn into mad snake nano things. Fair dues. Why didn't he do this on the shuttle?

 

Honestly, I've never seen such bad writing in my entire life. Why the fuck would Klingons make a monastery based around Time Crystals? There was no reason given.

 

It's literally the dumbest show I have ever watched. It's depressing as fuck, given S1 had so much potential once it got past the initial weird shit.

 

FUCK YEAH SEASON 3 LET'S GO BATSHIT CRAZY

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14 hours ago, kensei said:

 

It didn't need a new race. The Klingon Empire being in decline for a long time was a staple of the TNG era, and having religious fanatics cause a civil war and ultimately a more xenophobic attitude would have been entirely plausible. Given the Klingons were historically a Russia stand in, you could have moved the pieces around to get to something like the modern day relationship. Post Voyager you could also have run with the destruction of Romulus (assuming no licensing issues with the prequels), peaked in how the Cardissans dealt with losing the Dominion War and boom! the TNG era status quo is upended and lots to work with. 

 

DS9 era writers would have just chewed that shit up. 

 

Neither the Klingons, the Federation, or fucking ANYONE was in a position to start going to war after the events of DS9.

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19 hours ago, jcafarley said:

*sigh*

 

 

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The last episode of Discovery showed exactly how not to do space combat. It was a visual mess, made no sense in terms of established conventions of ship combat in Star Trek and had no level of tension or feeling of high stakes.

 


 

Pretty much all previous incarnations of Star Trek did it better, by giving the starships weight and a slower pace the encounters felt like there was a genuine tactical battle going on, not just blasting everything in sight.

 

With DS9, even when the numbers of ships involved increased it still felt like there was a plan, that each starship had a role and mattered in the grand scheme of things. 

 

Discovery’s final battle felt like the worst excesses of prequel era Star Wars. No depth, no stakes, just explosions and flashing lights. It’s really disappointing and is a symptom of the wider lazy storytelling that has plagued season 2.

 

I’ve read a few reactions from sites like Polygon who say that this episode was brilliant, and as long-term Star Trek fans they feel it really fits with everything that has gone before it. I just can’t see how anyone can come to that conclusion. Sure, maybe Star Trek did need to evolve, but it didn’t need to become this lazy and stupid.

 

 

 

 

Disco and Enterprise just sat there and went pew pew pew. It was fucking ridiculous. JUST FIRE THE LASERS.

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Seriously, I take back everything positive I ever said about this show. It's probably the biggest piece of shit on television right now. It is unbelievably terrible - and I have absolutely zero doubt that Kurtzmann being the showrunner is part of this. It's absolutely fucking offensive.

 

I CAN'T WAIT TO CRY MORE.

 

But seriously. Jesus fucking christ.

 

*downs the whole bottle of Captain Morgan*

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Or, rather than get all upset about how unrealistic this whole thing is, you could just accept it's fantasy and enjoy the spectacle.

 

Guys, it's set in a space where faster than light travel is accepted. Where people can beam instantly to random co-ordinates on foreign planets. Where ships always seem to meet each other 'the right way up' on a flat plane. Where gravity, even on tiny shuttles, is hand waved away. It has so many holes in it already, why nit-pick about minor plot holes as well?

 

I've loved Trek since the original series, and with a few minor gripes aside, this has a chance of being ranked third, behind TNG and TOS in my book.

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Nah, man. Nah. Just nah. It had its chance. The characters - barring Stamets and Saru - are hot fucking garbage. It killed off its coolest character in Lorca by making him a Space Nazi.

 

It's a visual spectacle, and that's all it seems to be able to achieve. It's absolutely brain-dead fucking fluff.

 

ACTUAL PROPER EDIT: I'm not upset, by the way. I was a bit miffed when it all started going down the shitter - just after Hugh got brought back - but then I realised that it was catering to fucking idiots/people who didn't care about coherent storylines , and decided to hate-enjoy the ride with them.

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1 hour ago, Meh said:

 

Neither the Klingons, the Federation, or fucking ANYONE was in a position to start going to war after the events of DS9.

 

Alright. Set it 10 years post. It's still a really easy conversion process to set it post Voy. 

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Yeah, totally that could happen - but everyone would roll their eyes at the Klingons going "BUT OUR HONOUR" and going fucking ham again. It's so utterly played out, even Disco decided it was deader than... disco.

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1 hour ago, Meh said:

 

Neither the Klingons, the Federation, or fucking ANYONE was in a position to start going to war after the events of DS9.

 

That'd make an even better time frame for religious fanatics to take over an exhausted Klingon Empire, find a fuck off coffin ship, get a small fleet and start attacking the Federation, no? Maybe if the Federation was in a bad state too - and already more militarised due to the Dominion War - it might have even have put its core values under strain? 

 

Discovery's setup is actually really good and they completely fucked it. 

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The Federation seemed to have recovered pretty well, to be honest - a little too well. Look at the shit they were pulling out of their asses in the latter seasons of Voyager, with the tri-ship things they were testing. If anything, the Fed were probably ripe to be seen as a bit more of an issue in general to the whole alpha quadrant, given their sudden eagerness to test super-bastard-powerful ships out.

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OH and one of the most hilarious things about the last episode:

 

Spock going "LET'S FORGET ABOUT DISCOVERY, AND THE WHOLE SPORE DRIVE THING, AND ALL THAT STUFF, AND JUST WHATEVER FUCK EVERYTHING IT NEVER HAPPENED DUDES HONEST THEY'RE IN THE FUTURE NOW WHO CARES ABOUT TECHNOLOGY THAT WILL ENABLE US TO GO ANYWHERE IN THE ENTIRE FUCKKKKING UNIVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRSE". Absolutely fucking insane.

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42 minutes ago, Wizcat said:

Or, rather than get all upset about how unrealistic this whole thing is, you could just accept it's fantasy and enjoy the spectacle.

 

Guys, it's set in a space where faster than light travel is accepted. Where people can beam instantly to random co-ordinates on foreign planets. Where ships always seem to meet each other 'the right way up' on a flat plane. Where gravity, even on tiny shuttles, is hand waved away. It has so many holes in it already, why nit-pick about minor plot holes as well?

 

I've loved Trek since the original series, and with a few minor gripes aside, this has a chance of being ranked third, behind TNG and TOS in my book.

 

One thing this show actually got right was how ships don't always meet "the right way up". It was all downhill from there.

 

This argument often pops up in response to criticism of sci-fi and fantasy, and I've got two responses in this case. First of all, any setting, fantastical or not, needs to be consistent in order to make for a satisfying story. Star Trek's technology is usually just a way to facilitate stories, but it's also detailed enough to be the basis of many of them. Warp drive is hardly a hole when we know how it works in the show, what powers it and exactly how "fast" it is.

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that most of the complaints in this thread have nothing to do with fantastical technology. This show, and particularly this season is riddled with nonsensical plot points, and they don't magically become excusable because they're nonsensical plot points in space.

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I find it difficult to articulate my feelings on Discovery. It's not that it's bad that frustrates me, it's that even when it's bad I can see opportunities where a good version of the show could have existed. In some alternate reality, Discovery is probably a very nice show. Sadly I cannot build a suit and go back in time to finesse events in our favour, because there are no time crystals available on Amazon.

 

Spoiler

 

Like a dagger to the heart, S2 ends with Captain Pike taking the Enterprise to scan a moon. Imagine what they're going to get up to on that mission? They might talk to each other, play poker, see some characters develop, then maybe find a weird omnipotent being or something and somehow subdue them using wit and guile?

 

We, meanwhile, will no doubt be watching Burnham save the universe for the third time in season 3. Did Kirk/Picard/Sisko ever save the entire universe? I don't think they did. Chumps.

 

 

Sigh.

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You know, I'm all for a Pike show, as Mount was the one absolutely spot-on thing they got in the entire season. He was consistently fantastic, even when the script was not. I just hope to fucking GOD Ethan Peck is nowhere near it, as he's absolutely fucking pathetic as Spock. I've never seen anything so badly miscast in my entire fucking life.

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I watched For The Love Of Spock a couple of week's ago (which was really good by the way), and it highlighted how Nimoy's subtle touches brought so much character to Spock without having to spell out all his inner thoughts. Peck's Spock was more like a robot with the occasional temper tantrum.

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