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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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2 hours ago, matt0 said:

Luke's motivations for vanishing are never given in TFA, but it's not a massive stretch to imagine he's in self imposed exile.

 

I'm happy they steered clear of a certain subsection of the audience's expectations on this one since I suspect those expectations would be something like:

 

Luke went to fight some super badass Sith sect that was super secret and was hidden on a super isolated super planet where he had some super light saber battles with a super Sith lord with six arms and a light saber in each hand and light saber claws on his feet and it's all going to be explained in this expanded universe novel/comic/shitty CGI cartoon.

 

Luke being a broken, failed Jedi teacher who has turned away from everything is built on simple, understandably human motivations and reactions. Those kinds of motivations and human frailties are an integral part of the clockwork that drove the original trilogy and that Lucas was reaching for (and failed to stick the landing on) in the prequels.

 

 

 

I didn't expect some sort of super secret Sith Jedi magic. But I expected him to be going to look for answers, not to die. Here's a plausible story, render though the filter of me being crap:

 

Luke tried to reach Ben like he reached his father, but the result was the destruction of his temple and the death of his students. He thinks the only option he has to (try to) kill him, but he just can't kill his nephew. He goes to search for answers in the earliest Jedi texts.

 

I reckon someone with more talent than me could riff on that in a productive way. It doesn't have to be a million miles off TLJ either, as he could easily be anguished or frustrated by being unable to find what he's looking for. But it means when

 

Spoiler

Rey offers the possibility of a different future for Ben, it might be something that gives Luke his answer, or a reason to train Rey. It allows his character to be a bit different and not quite as broken.

 

TLJ is not the only possible workable riff on TFA. One line in that film does not overcome three films worth of character. Evidently Mark Hamill thought Luke was an optimist too, so I can't be that insane.

 

As I said, Hamill was my favourite part of the film. Just a bit of me wanted to see a different Luke.

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The more I think about this movie the worse it gets tbh.

 

I’m no big SW fan, and I wanted to like the film given the whining. At the time I enjoyed what they did with Luke, it was different yet it worked - but I think his moping arc should’ve been condensed and the film culminate with a lot of Luke kicking arse as a formidable Jedi. Having Luke/the Rebels static for most of the movie was a terrible decision.

 

Also they’ve ruined Poe before he was even properly established.  The whole plot with Laura Dern was nonsensical.

 

The film has killed any momentum and anticipation for Ep9. 

 

Rogue One was much better than this, in retrospect.

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Watched this for the first time today and enjoyed it.

 

I can see why people might be confused/frustrated by the story, it seemed to miss it's mark a couple of times for me but I'm thinking that it may suffer from been part of a trilogy and might make more sense after the next one.

 

My only real concern was who the hell Snoke is?

 

 

somebody previously mentioned the final Snoke scene not been earned and I have to agree. He only seemed to serve as a "big bad" but was soon offed when it served the story, he never seemed a foreboding figure like the Emperor did.


Add to the fact his "identity" is never really revealed, is he Darth Plaguis (sp?) etc. or just some random bad guy. I know Darren above hints at some canon story stuff but nothings ever mentioned in tfa or tlj afaik. I mean, look at all the speculation after tfa and it was for nowt?

Again may be this will be explained a bit more in the next one.

 

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I don't really agree with this modern need for everything to be explained. Who cares who he was? Surely Kylo was always going to be the bad guy in the third film.

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10 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

I don't really agree with this modern need for everything to be explained. Who cares who he was? Surely Kylo was always going to be the bad guy in the third film.

 

I think the problem with Snoke is that not enough was explained rather than not everything was. 

 

He is both of interest in and of himself, and in how he impacts other characters, particularly Kylo Ten / Ben Solo.

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The problem with Snoke is that he’s a lame lazy retread of the Emperor and they double down on it in TLJ even giving him his own red guys, except these ones each have their own special weapons like Ninja Turtles (buy the whole set kids).

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I think that the lack of explanation/backstory for Snoke is a reasonable criticism of the film. It sticks out as feeling incomplete because Star Wars films have always given some explanation of how powerful Force users learned to control their powers and rose to their positions.

 

Even if we didn't see their training and origins in as much detail as Luke's and Anakin's, we had enough to fill in the blanks: we knew that Yoda and Rear Windu were part of an ancient order; we knew that Maul was an apprentice in an opposing order, trained by Palpatine; we knew that Dooku was a former Jedi who became a Sith. Even Palpatine gets that Darth Plageuis story which is enough to hint at where Palpatine's own Force knowledge came from.

 

The prospect of a powerful Force user rising to the leadership of the remnants of the Empire is an easy blank to fill in. The question is: did Snoke gain his mastery of the Force independently of the Jedi and the Sith - if so, how; we've never seen someone do that? (Could Anakin have risen to the same level of power and mastery if he'd never escaped from Tatooine?) Was he around during the time of the Jedi Council and the Republic, sticking to the shadows during the Rebel/Empire war and biding his time until Palpatine's downfall? Or is he someone who was not at all involved in the previous events, who first made himself known to the galaxy at large when he began tempting the most powerful student in the revived Jedi order?

 

These origins may not be relevant to the story being told in these films. But the lack of explanation sticks out as odd, compared to the depiction of every other powerful Force user in the series.

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Who cares about any of that? The Emperor was just the Emperor in the original trilogy.

 

Last Jedi isn't a perfect movie. I do think it's got pacing issues, is overlong, and suffers in the Resistance escape plotline from a lack of the characters talking to each other. But the idea that having a "Young Snoke" section where we see Snoke getting trained up, and seducing Ben Solo in flashback is really odd to me.

 

Plus, I assume Young Snoke will be coming along as a cash-in movie at some point anyway.

 

Snoke's a dark Force guy who reached out and found Solo. It doesn't need more than that. The whole point of the story TLJ is telling is that the old guard are irrelevant and the young people need to save themselves.

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14 minutes ago, Nick R said:

I think that the lack of explanation/backstory for Snoke is a reasonable criticism of the film. It sticks out as feeling incomplete because Star Wars films have always given some explanation of how powerful Force users learned to control their powers and rose to their positions.

 

Even if we didn't see their training and origins in as much detail as Luke's and Anakin's, we had enough to fill in the blanks: we knew that Yoda and Rear Windu were part of an ancient order; we knew that Maul was an apprentice in an opposing order, trained by Palpatine; we knew that Dooku was a former Jedi who became a Sith. Even Palpatine gets that Darth Plageuis story which is enough to hint at where Palpatine's own Force knowledge came from.

 

The prospect of a powerful Force user rising to the leadership of the remnants of the Empire is an easy blank to fill in. The question is: did Snoke gain his mastery of the Force independently of the Jedi and the Sith - if so, how; we've never seen someone do that? (Could Anakin have risen to the same level of power and mastery if he'd never escaped from Tatooine?) Was he around during the time of the Jedi Council and the Republic, sticking to the shadows during the Rebel/Empire war and biding his time until Palpatine's downfall? Or is he someone who was not at all involved in the previous events, who first made himself known to the galaxy at large when he began tempting the most powerful student in the revived Jedi order?

 

These origins may not be relevant to the story being told in these films. But the lack of explanation sticks out as odd, compared to the depiction of every other powerful Force user in the series.

 

All the examples you used are from the prequels which... doesn't really help your point.

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1 hour ago, freezycold said:

I'm just baffled how out of ALL the various directions this movie could have taken following TFA, it went that way. Who thought that was a good idea? Any of it!

 

Yeah it was great. It was the best, bravest, and most exciting Star Wars movie.

 

Can’t wait for the directors trilogy. 

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The worst thing about Snoke is his name and title. Supreme Leader Snoke. It's absolutely crap, it just doesn't have that evil ring to it in the slightest does it. Second worst is his stupid face, third worst is the complete and utter lack of any explanation about him whatsoever.

 

That's the canon order of things to not particularly like about him. 

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13 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Who cares about any of that? The Emperor was just the Emperor in the original trilogy.

 

Last Jedi isn't a perfect movie. I do think it's got pacing issues, is overlong, and suffers in the Resistance escape plotline from a lack of the characters talking to each other. But the idea that having a "Young Snoke" section where we see Snoke getting trained up, and seducing Ben Solo in flashback is really odd to me.

 

Plus, I assume Young Snoke will be coming along as a cash-in movie at some point anyway.

 

Snoke's a dark Force guy who reached out and found Solo. It doesn't need more than that. The whole point of the story TLJ is telling is that the old guard are irrelevant and the young people need to save themselves.

 

I don't want Young Smoke; I want an idea of who Snoke is: what motivates him, what he wants, how what he wants impacts on others I'm interested in, like Kylo Ten. I want as much background as makes him and the film feel satisfying. "Evil" isn't enough.

 

The Emperor was the Emperor in the OT, but the films had given me a good idea of who he was and what he wanted. One by little references here and there,  two by the simple fact he was worse than Darth Vader and three by the fact the end of ROTJ is brilliant. The OT is super efficient in its storytelling.

 

In any case, there's nothing necessarily wrong with wanting a backstory for the main villain; it can add to the jeopardy and to the characters. Harry Potter did it very well across a number of films, slowly building up and revealing Voldemort.

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33 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Who cares about any of that? The Emperor was just the Emperor in the original trilogy.

 

Yeah, but at that time the backstory was a blank slate. They were free to introduce the character through the progression: Empire -> Emperor -> oh wow he's got Force lightning powers! and it was all plausible.

 

I'm the first to acknowledge that "fitting into canon" is one of the less important matters to consider in telling a good story. But as any series goes on, the tendency is for things to become more specific in how they fit into gaps in what's been told before. So the fact that Snoke is kept as vague as he is just feels incomplete.

 

33 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Last Jedi isn't a perfect movie. I do think it's got pacing issues, is overlong, and suffers in the Resistance escape plotline from a lack of the characters talking to each other. But the idea that having a "Young Snoke" section where we see Snoke getting trained up, and seducing Ben Solo in flashback is really odd to me.

 

I'm not asking for a Young Snoke flashback. Even a sentence of Kylo hinting at the extra-Galactic stuff that's hinted at in those tie-in books that have been mentioned would be enough.

 

33 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Snoke's a dark Force guy who reached out and found Solo. It doesn't need more than that. The whole point of the story TLJ is telling is that the old guard are irrelevant and the young people need to save themselves.

 

And given events in TLJ, wouldn't that point only be enhanced by more explicitly making Smoke a remnant of the Jedi/Sith old guard?

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5 minutes ago, Glasgowchivas said:

“The Emperor...is coming here?!”

 

That line alone gave us more insight that both TFA & TLJ did into Snoke. 

 

 

1 minute of film, but it packs so much in - the Emperor's plans, counterpoints the light side training Luke got and confirms the warnings, and sells Luke's anguish and peril.

 

I think they wanted the Snoke scenes to be like this. But that is still spine tingling, which I just didn't get from Snoke.

 

 

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The Jedi and Sith don’t matter anymore. That was the whole point. That’s why Snoke’s story doesn’t matter. 

 

Killing off Snoke like he was nothing was one of the great things about this film. It subverted everyone’s thinking about what a Star Wars movie should be. 

 

I can just imagine everyone having a whinge if they treated Snoke like the Emperor of old. Hinting at his powers, his backstory, “it’s just another retread” everyone would exclaim. And they’d be right too.  

 

So thanks Disney for having the balls to make the best and most surprising Star Wars ever. 

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55 minutes ago, the_debaser said:

Snoke wasn’t an important character. Why give him a backstory? 

 

I accept its not the fault of TLJ - but it is a fault of this new series of films - and is basically poor storytelling.

 

These films are chapter Seven and Eight. Not chapters One and Two -  and in the sequence of the story - the character of Snoke has come out of nowhere to completely change the result of the previous chapter.. ROTJ.

 

That NEEDS explanation.  And it should have been in the main series of films - not in some video game or book spin off.

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Yeah thank god they didn’t retread the Emperor by having a pasty old white disfigured guy in a throne room get betrayed by his apprentice in a moment of overconfidence. Oops, my bad it happened at the end of the second film instead of the third. The subversion levels are off the charts.

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Na. Very different scenarios. Vader was redeeming himself. Ren's motivations and the context are completely different.

 

Edit: In fact more than that. Apprentice killing master is actually the standard way to become the master in the Sith. The book 'Lords of the Sith' has some fantastic insights into this, the tension between Palpatine and Vader, both knowing that.

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