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Star Wars: The Last Jedi


Steven

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26 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

Yes, which is why Leia gives Poe a bollocking and demotes him. So your argument is that she was right, he was too focused on his narrow objective which wasn’t even his mission in the first place and ignored the risk and cost, getting the entire bomber fleet destroyed in the process.

 

I just don’t understand what your objection is here. You’re saying exactly the same thing the film is!

One thing I can't get past is the simple fact that Leia outranks Poe. Why didn't she just put out a massive order to retreat, thus forcing Poe to also retreat. Why do the bombers listen to Poe's orders and not Leia's. The beginning of this film is easily its poorest element by a long way. 

 

Edit: I mean poorest as in making sense. I love the film. But the feel of those early scenes, with the modern humour, is off. 

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23 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

Yes, which is why Leia gives Poe a bollocking and demotes him. So your argument is that she was right, he was too focused on his narrow objective which wasn’t even his mission in the first place and ignored the risk and cost, getting the entire bomber fleet destroyed in the process.

 

I just don’t understand what your objection is here. You’re saying exactly the same thing the film is!

 

As I have outlined above, it is literally unbelievable that anybody would ever think it would be a good idea to fly in a load of slow moving bombers; and unbelievable that a lone pilot could somehow order them to fly in without his superior officers being able to stop it; and unbelievable that a lone pilot could dupe the enemy by pretending not to hear them.

 

And that's just the opening few minutes. 

 

Everything about the movie is so hopelessly contrived and unnatural; mostly, I guess, because the director was so rabidly intent on subverting expectations that he forgot about making a fun movie. I think it's much more impressive that the force awakens manages to sneak so many subversive elements into a film that everybody seems to think trod pretty safe ground.

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9 minutes ago, Thor said:

One thing I can't get past is the simple fact that Leia outranks Poe. Why didn't she just put out a massive order to retreat, thus forcing Poe to also retreat. Why do the bombers listen to Poe's orders and not Leia's. The beginning of this film is easily its poorest element by a long way. 

 IIRC she does issue that order to Poe, who switches her off and deliberately disobeys. The rest of them follow Poe who is their commander and as far as they know is acting with Leia's blessing. Presumably comms from the base/command ship is direct to the squadron leader rather than broadcast to everyone. So they loyally follow their CO on what turns out to be a suicide mission for them. Poe isn't even contrite afterwards, he thinks all those deaths were a price worth paying to destroy the dreadnaught. The whole point is that he might be a hotshot flyboy but he's also a reckless idiot and definitely not a leader. Right from the start it makes him a much more rounded and interesting character than he was in TFA in which he was simply a cool dude and ace pilot with no arc whatsoever.

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3 minutes ago, K said:

 

If you didn't like that bit, then I have some very bad news about the last twenty minutes of the original Star Wars.

 

I must have missed the bit where Luke pretended to not hear Moff Tarkin on the phone to buy everyone some time...

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1 minute ago, Tourist said:

 

As I have outlined above, it is literally unbelievable that anybody would ever think it would be a good idea to fly in a load of slow moving bombers; and unbelievable that a lone pilot could somehow order them to fly in without his superior officers being able to stop it; and unbelievable that a lone pilot could dupe the enemy by pretending not to hear them.

 

And that's just the opening few minutes. 

 

Everything about the movie is so hopelessly contrived and unnatural; mostly, I guess, because the director was so rabidly intent on subverting expectations that he forgot about making a fun movie. I think it's much more impressive that the force awakens manages to sneak so many subversive elements into a film that everybody seems to think trod pretty safe ground.

 

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1 minute ago, Tourist said:

 

As I have outlined above, it is literally unbelievable that anybody would ever think it would be a good idea to fly in a load of slow moving bombers; and unbelievable that a lone pilot could somehow order them to fly in without his superior officers being able to stop it; and unbelievable that a lone pilot could dupe the enemy by pretending not to hear them.

 

And that's just the opening few minutes. 

 

Everything about the movie is so hopelessly contrived and unnatural; mostly, I guess, because the director was so rabidly intent on subverting expectations that he forgot about making a fun movie. I think it's much more impressive that the force awakens manages to sneak so many subversive elements into a film that everybody seems to think trod pretty safe ground.

 

Yes, it's literally unbelievable that he could be so focused on his personal objective that he achieves it at the cost of literally all his comrades' lives.

 

Yes it's literally unbelievable that his comrades would follow their commander's orders rather than those of his superior officer of which they are unaware.

 

Yes it's literally unbelievable that doing something utterly unexpected would confuse the enemy and buy valuable time.

 

You do understand that the whole point of the film is that he's WRONG to do the first two things, right? (The third was his actual mission to buy the fleet time to escape).

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Yeah that moment in the original movie is completely different in all sorts of ways, not least because Han's improvised effort to buy time doesn't actually work. He's certainly not stupid enough to try to take on an entire fleet by flying up to them and pretending he can't hear.

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1 minute ago, Darren said:

 

You do understand that the whole point of the film is that he's WRONG to do the first two things, right? (The third was his actual mission to buy the fleet time to escape).

 

Yes I understand. As I have explained above, in order to shoehorn this dangerously subversive notion that Poe is a mansplaining flyboy, the film is literally unbelievable and unbelievably stupid.

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1 minute ago, kensei said:

 

He was talking to Grand Moff Tarkin, there, aye? 

 

Fucking hell, at this point I'd just cancel star wars and create the multi award franchise "Anal Retentive Space Lord" starring mostly white men acting entirely logically and a POV sex scene to save on fanfic. I'll collect that £200m crowd funding now.

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24 minutes ago, Tourist said:

 

I must have missed the bit where Luke pretended to not hear Moff Tarkin on the phone to buy everyone some time...

 

He turned off his targeting computer, doesn’t he? And he takes instruction from a ghost. It’s only the fact that his ghost-driven plan works that means he’s not kicked out of the rebellion or sectioned or shot for turning off his sophisticated equipment and freestyling it, like Poe admittedly should have been. 

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14 minutes ago, Tourist said:

 

Yes I understand. As I have explained above, in order to shoehorn this dangerously subversive notion that Poe is a mansplaining flyboy, the film is literally unbelievable and unbelievably stupid.

 

Well, you've explained that you think it's unbelievable that an officer could make a reckless decision that costs his subordinates' lives, or that the troops could follow his orders to their deaths, or that doing something completely unexpected could put the enemy on the back foot, in which case I assume you also don't believe the Charge of the Light Brigade or D-Day could possibly have happened either.

 

Nobody brought up mansplaining. Where did that come from?

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The mansplaining was my favourite bit of TLJ. I really enjoy the fact that in a $250m blockbuster sci-fi franchise film, one of the protagonist's character arcs is to learn to stop mansplaining.

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27 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

Fucking hell, at this point I'd just cancel star wars and create the multi award franchise "Anal Retentive Space Lord" starring mostly white men acting entirely logically and a POV sex scene to save on fanfic. I'll collect that £200m crowd funding now.

 

Why do keep bringing sexism into this? All the chapters involved here are male, last time I checked. 

 

As per the comment I have already written above, if that conversation occurs between Han and Grand Moff Tarkin, the only outcome is to undermine Tarkin's character - even if Han's ruse fails, unlike Poe's in TLJ. Which is exactly what happens in TLJ with General Hux. 

 

No one is saying there isn't room for humour in Star Wars. Or slightly madcap plans - the whole thing is a homage to Flash Gordon, for fucks sake. But used appropriately . People keep asking what exactly is meant by "I think the execution is poor", and then when examples are given, completely ignore the point and start slabbing. 

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The difference between Han in Star Wars and Poe in TLJ is that Han is a two-bit crook making it up as he goes along. He knows it probably won't work and sure enough, it doesn't. Poe is a Billy Big Balls who thinks he can take on the entire enemy fleet single handedly because a few hours earlier he fired the shot that blew up their entire base planet. So far he's never failed in any mission so he thinks he's infallible.

 

Han doesn't need to learn that hustling doesn't always work, but Poe does need to learn that going in all guns blazing is not the answer to everything.

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1 hour ago, K said:

The mansplaining was my favourite bit of TLJ. I really enjoy the fact that in a $250m blockbuster sci-fi franchise film, one of the protagonist's character arcs is to learn to stop mansplaining.

 

But they already did this, much more subtly, without having to constrain the story, in TFA, when Fin meets Rey on Jakku.

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41 minutes ago, Darren said:

The difference between Han in Star Wars and Poe in TLJ is that Han is a two-bit crook making it up as he goes along. He knows it probably won't work and sure enough, it doesn't. Poe is a Billy Big Balls who thinks he can take on the entire enemy fleet single handedly because a few hours earlier he fired the shot that blew up their entire base planet. So far he's never failed in any mission so he thinks he's infallible.

 

Han doesn't need to learn that hustling doesn't always work, but Poe does need to learn that going in all guns blazing is not the answer to everything.

 

The difference is no one gives a shit about making Hux a cartoon villain, and Gleeson's doesn't have the clout of Peter Cushing.

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46 minutes ago, Tourist said:

 

But they already did this, much more subtly, without having to constrain the story, in TFA, when Fin meets Rey on Jakku.

 

I dunno, it’s like lightsaber duels. I’ve seen them before, but I’m always happy to see another one. 

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54 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

The difference is no one gives a shit about making Hux a cartoon villain, and Gleeson's doesn't have the clout of Peter Cushing.

 

It's not about making him a cartoon villain, it's about quickly (re)establishing his character: pompous, self-important and blinded to imminent risk by his overinflated sense of superiority. He's a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dunning Kruger Effect in human form.

 

I agree he doesn't have the gravitas of Tarkin (I think this is down to the character rather than the actor though) but who does? He's more like Mr Bronson in TESB. 

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3 hours ago, Tourist said:

 

Uh, did you actually watch the film? The bombers all get destroyed. The only reason they manage to destroy the huge enemy ship is because the bad guys are so monumentally stupid that they let a lone rebel fighter take out all of their defences and then the last remaining bomber gets some sort of plot/force assistance. 

 

Poe's fighter taking out all the ships defences makes no sense. Guns explicitly designed and built to counter fast moving small fighter craft cannot target fast moving small fighter craft. 

 

So one fighter craft can just destroy all of their cannons. 

 

It's offensively stupid awkward contrived screenplay writing.

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3 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

It's not about making him a cartoon villain, it's about quickly (re)establishing his character: pompous, self-important and blinded to imminent risk by his overinflated sense of superiority. He's a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dunning Kruger Effect in human form.

 

I agree he doesn't have the gravitas of Tarkin (I think this is down to the character rather than the actor though) but who does? He's more like Mr Bronson in TESB. 

 

Oh come on Darren. Fair play you like the movie, it's hardly trash, but he is absolutely a cartoon villian who carries zero threat or weight. 

 

The phonecall scene is disastrous as far as tone and tension goes. It's terrible and belongs in a comedy.

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2 hours ago, K said:

 

If you didn't like that bit, then I have some very bad news about the last twenty minutes of the original Star Wars.

 

And those two are completely different as well you know.

 

One is a one in a million shot, the other is the very things designed for defence not being able to carry out defence. 

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2 hours ago, SMD said:

 

Fucking hell, at this point I'd just cancel star wars and create the multi award franchise "Anal Retentive Space Lord" starring mostly white men acting entirely logically and a POV sex scene to save on fanfic. I'll collect that £200m crowd funding now.

 

Again and again with the same lazy and grossly offensivefalse dichtomy. Is it possible to dislike this movie without morons like you implying that everyone who does is an immature sexist racist, or not?

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6 minutes ago, Smitty said:

 

And those two are completely different as well you know.

 

One is a one in a million shot, the other is the very things designed for defence not being able to carry out defence. 

 

They spend ages in the Death Star sequence shooting towers and turrets that are presumably only present to provide defence against small, fast-moving craft (and doing so pretty successfully with relatively minimal loss.) Poe doing this single-handedly (but with no TIE fighter support because of his phone tricks) isn't that far removed from what's already been established.

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3 minutes ago, Smitty said:

 

Oh come on Darren. Fair play you like the movie, it's hardly trash, but he is absolutely a cartoon villian who carries zero threat or weight. 

 

The phonecall scene is disastrous as far as tone and tension goes. It's terrible and belongs in a comedy.

 

I genuinely liked it. What can I say!

 

Just to counter the impression that I'm such a fanboy that I'll unquestioningly lap up anything that says Star Wars on it, even I don't think TLJ is perfect. I think I said in my very earliest impressions in this thread that it's flawed, it takes a lot of risks and they don't all work, but I'd rather that than playing it safe, which was fine for TFA to get us back on track after the prequels, but another by the numbers retread of the original films would have been very dull compared to what we got which (for me) opened things up in new and interesting directions.

 

For example, I can see the point of the Canto Bight mission but I think the execution is poor compared to the rest of the film, especially that tracking shot past all the wacky aliens in the casino, and the whole chase sequence. And of course it contains the worst character in the entire film, DJ, who is essential for Finn's character development but performed absolutely terribly. If we're going to complain about comedy characters I'd start with him and his ridiculous stutter, which is even less convincing than Michael Palin's in A Fish Called Wanda and can only be an attempt by Benicio Del Toro to make himself the millennials' Jar Jar Binks, possibly for a bet.

 

I certainly don't think TLJ is perfect but I do think it's the best and the most interesting of the new films and the best Star Wars film since Empire. I've no problem people having other views but I can't help responding when someone says something in the film is "literally unbelievable" when it's a direct parallel with actual real life events that have happened in Real Wars.

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