Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Unofficial Who]

3 hours ago, K said:

Much as I liked them, Rose and Holdo fail the most basic rule of good characterisation, ie were they also a toy that I played with when I was seven?

 

Which reminds me, I really need to get my classic Being John Malkovich action figures out of storage.

[Thor]

Regarding the "Why was there a map to skywalker?" question.

 

It's not a map to Luke, it's a map to the very first Jedi temple, where they believe Luke is likely to have gone. 

[K]

Just re-watched the Last Jedi. Honestly, no exaggeration, this film is a masterpiece. Easily the best of the new Star Wars films, and up there with Empire Strikes Back in terms of overall quality. On a second viewing, everything works - I even loved the whole Canto Bight sequence once I had better sight of its purpose. Poe's rebellion and Holdo's putdowns are particularly good a second time around - I love the scene where Holdo is introduced, where Poe thinks to himself "A FEMALE admiral? Looks like this little lady could benefit from a few words of wisdom!", mansplains the hell out of the situation to her, and then gets cut to pieces. But there's some nice nuance around that too - I didn't notice that Poe repeats Holdo's pep talk at the end of the film when he's trying to inspire the remaining troops, and I'd forgotten that they gloss over the fact that Poe should by all rights be put up against a wall and shot by having Holdo and Leia smirk at each other and say (paraphrased) "he's cute, but he's a handful" as if they're talking about an unruly puppy. You really got the sense that they were used to dealing with hotheads like Poe in the resistance, and that it was second nature to these two pros.

 

Interesting watching it after reading that Film Crit Hulk article as well. I hadn't made the connection between the caged animals and slaves that Finn sees on Canto Bight, his own background, and his journey towards being a dedicated (possibly too-dedicated) resistance member, but it works, and helps power that whole setpiece along - not to mention his character arc.

 

It all feels carefully constructed, too. Luke's projection at the end is a surprise, but it's set-up throughout the film with Rey and Kylo's little chats, particularly the one where Kylo actually manifests (and which Luke actually sees - possibly giving him the idea for the climax?). Luke's death is foreshadowed too - in the first Rey / Kylo connection, Kylo says something like "You're not doing this yourself. The effort would kill you". One nice touch I missed - Luke's force projection is younger and thinner than the actual Luke, and has the same hair and beard as he did when Ren burned down the temple. The old Luke gave up and metaphorically died at that point, and then symbolically returns to finish his business with Kylo Ren.

 

One image will really stay with me that I missed first time around (or forgot since) - Luke and Leia, meeting for the last time. The two protagonists of Star Wars, both of them aged and broken down by the weight of their own legend, in sharp contrast to the beautiful youths we saw in the original Star Wars - old, jaded, past-it, but still fighting, and still believing. Right to the end. 

[Thor]

 

Can we lock the thread with that final awesome comment from K, please?

[Jug McKenzie]

13 hours ago, K said:

One image will really stay with me that I missed first time around (or forgot since) - Luke and Leia, meeting for the last time. The two protagonists of Star Wars, both of them aged and broken down by the weight of their own legend, in sharp contrast to the beautiful youths we saw in the original Star Wars - old, jaded, past-it, but still fighting, and still believing. Right to the end. 

 

 

 

 

[kensei]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Regarding the "Why was there a map to skywalker?" question.

 

It's not a map to Luke, it's a map to the very first Jedi temple, where they believe Luke is likely to have gone. 

 

Half of which just happened to be living inside R2D2. It's a map to Luke. That's what TFA sets up. 

[SMD]

13 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

Half of which just happened to be living inside R2D2. It's a map to Luke. That's what TFA sets up. 

 

m8

[Kevvy Metal]

25 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

Half of which just happened to be living inside R2D2. It's a map to Luke. That's what TFA sets up. 

 

The map that is contained in R2 is the Galactic map from the Empires archives, the same one that Kylo Ren talks about. R2 aquired it when scanning the data banks of the Death Star in A New Hope. 

 

True, this isn’t really explained in TFA but what I’ve mentioned is from some Apendix book. 

 

So yeah, it’s not a fucking map to Luke, it’s the map to the first Jedi temple that they need to reference the Galactic map with. 

[MechE]

3 hours ago, K said:

lt feels carefully constructed, too.

I don't normally watch DVD extras as I think a film should speak for itself and they're normally pretty cringy, but I'd recommend watching the making-of documentary for this just to get a sense of Rian Johnson as a film maker. Unlike a lot of directors, he's a fairly introspective and considered man. You see him having a lot of intimate chats with the cast and crew trying to sell his vision. I think this is why we get such a committed performance from Hamil even though he makes it very clear throughout the doc that he wanted a different story for Luke.

 

Johnson isn't opening up the Star Wars toy box and throwing as much as it on screen as possible for nostalgic reasons, he's telling a very carefully constructed story. I completely get why people don't like it, but I think that the critisms about it being underwritten or messy are a bit harsh.

[Dirty Harry Potter]

Johnson just makes the whole thing so joyless though.

 

And he knows it - hence the crowbarred in, comically tone deaf humour (that is actually very different to TFA's).

 

[kensei]

1 hour ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

The map that is contained in R2 is the Galactic map from the Empires archives, the same one that Kylo Ren talks about. R2 aquired it when scanning the data banks of the Death Star in A New Hope. 

 

True, this isn’t really explained in TFA but what I’ve mentioned is from some Apendix book. 

 

So yeah, it’s not a fucking map to Luke, it’s the map to the first Jedi temple that they need to reference the Galactic map with. 

 

I don't give a shit about the EU, old or new. If I need to find information about the film I'm watching in a book after, that film has failed hard. 

 

It's a map to Luke he left in R2D2 and the other half with a mate. That's why the film ends with finding Luke. I think we've all learned now that the Star Wars audience is not a sophisticated audience, and TFA clearly embraces this. 

[HarryBizzle]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Regarding the "Why was there a map to skywalker?" question.

 

It's not a map to Luke, it's a map to the very first Jedi temple, where they believe Luke is likely to have gone. 

 

Is this explained in the film?

[Thor]

Eeehhh, now that you mention it, only kinda. 

[Kevvy Metal]

33 minutes ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

Is this explained in the film?

 

Han Solo dumps some exposition about it in the Millenium Falcon when BB-8 is projecting the piece of the map. 

[Delargey]

But more often than not they just refer to it as the map to Skywalker.

[K]

12 hours ago, MechE said:

I don't normally watch DVD extras as I think a film should speak for itself and they're normally pretty cringy, but I'd recommend watching the making-of documentary for this just to get a sense of Rian Johnson as a film maker. Unlike a lot of directors, he's a fairly introspective and considered man. You see him having a lot of intimate chats with the cast and crew trying to sell his vision. I think this is why we get such a committed performance from Hamil even though he makes it very clear throughout the doc that he wanted a different story for Luke.

 

Johnson isn't opening up the Star Wars toy box and throwing as much as it on screen as possible for nostalgic reasons, he's telling a very carefully constructed story. I completely get why people don't like it, but I think that the critisms about it being underwritten or messy are a bit harsh.

 

Yeah, I don't normally watch extras, but was watching the deleted scenes last night and will get on the other extras as soon as I can.

 

John Boyega must be slightly annoyed by some of the stuff they cut - there are a couple of scenes early on that must amount to 90 seconds of screen time, but make his character arc a lot clearer. It still works with what's there, but it would have been nice to have that bit at the start where he explicitly says something like "I'm no resistance fighter". Shame they removed it.

[MechE]

I really like the scene on where 

Spoiler

he's recognised by one of his old storm trooper buddies in the lift. With just a few lines it provides such an interesting insight into his former life.

 

[Kevvy Metal]

18 minutes ago, Delargey said:

But more often than not they just refer to it as the map to Skywalker.

 

Kylo Ren does refer to it as such, and that'll be a far easier description of the map for the audience to digest... rather than "Bring me the map to the first Jedi temple".

Seen as it's apparent that a large portion of the audience are completely confused by anything and everything that happens in TLJ -- even though it's not that actually that taxing or difficult to understand -- I'd say it was a good choice from Abrams. #allteaallshade

 

 

2 minutes ago, K said:

 

Yeah, I don't normally watch extras, but was watching the deleted scenes last night and will get on the other extras as soon as I can.

 

John Boyega must be slightly annoyed by some of the stuff they cut - there are a couple of scenes early on that must amount to 90 seconds of screen time, but make his character arc a lot clearer. It still works with what's there, but it would have been nice to have that bit at the start where he explicitly says something like "I'm no resistance fighter". Shame they removed it.

 

I wish they kept in the Caretaker party scene. I properly laughed out loud at that bit, and was another "lesson" from Luke that I thought worked well. Real shame that it was cut. 

 

[kensei]

3 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

Kylo Ren does refer to it as such, and that'll be a far easier description of the map for the audience to digest... rather than "Bring me the map to the first Jedi temple".

Seen as it's apparent that a large portion of the audience are completely confused by anything and everything that happens in TLJ -- even though it's not that actually that taxing or difficult to understand -- I'd say it was a good choice from Abrams. #allteaallshade

 

You are making contortions trying to make it fit. If the director focuses it as a map to Luke, and has characters refer to it as a map to Luke, it's a fucking map to Luke. The entire of TFA suggests Luke is off, doing looking for answers, doing something that might help. The proposed end scene was him floating rocks. 

 

Johnson changed the plan - in so much as any plan existed. Some people liked it, some don't. That's it. 

[Kevvy Metal]

1 minute ago, kensei said:

 

You are making contortions trying to make it fit. If the director focuses it as a map to Luke, and has characters refer to it as a map to Luke, it's a fucking map to Luke. The entire of TFA suggests Luke is off, doing looking for answers, doing something that might help. The proposed end scene was him floating rocks. 

 

Johnson changed the plan - in so much as any plan existed. Some people liked it, some don't. That's it. 

 

Nah. 

[K]

47 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

You are making contortions trying to make it fit. If the director focuses it as a map to Luke, and has characters refer to it as a map to Luke, it's a fucking map to Luke. The entire of TFA suggests Luke is off, doing looking for answers, doing something that might help.

 

It doesn't. Han says that Luke disappeared after Kylo Ren killed all of his apprentices. He also says that Luke was looking for the first Jedi temple. IIRC, that's all the information given as to what Luke is doing. You assumed that he's off looking for a super-lightsabre, or a massive Jedi gun or something, but what happens in TLJ is totally consistent with the information given in TFA, mostly because almost no information is given.

[SMD]

41 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

You are making contortions trying to make it fit. If the director focuses it as a map to Luke, and has characters refer to it as a map to Luke, it's a fucking map to Luke. The entire of TFA suggests Luke is off, doing looking for answers, doing something that might help. The proposed end scene was him floating rocks. 

 

Johnson changed the plan - in so much as any plan existed. Some people liked it, some don't. That's it. 

 

Some people liked it, some people wrote a fucking manifesto after harassing loads of people involved in the movie.

[Kevvy Metal]

39 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

You are making contortions trying to make it fit.

 

We thinks the Lady doth protest too much. 

 

39 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

If the director focuses it as a map to Luke, and has characters refer to it as a map to Luke, it's a fucking map to Luke. The entire of TFA suggests Luke is off, doing looking for answers, doing something that might help. The proposed end scene was him floating rocks. 

 

Johnson changed the plan - in so much as any plan existed. Some people liked it, some don't. That's it. 

 

Well... rather than thinking this is what you think is suggested, you could look at the scene where Han Solo quite plainly explains that Luke is running away and hiding from it all after the disastrous event resulted from the training of his nephew going wrong.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86zgadLCu9g

[K]

5 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:

I wish they kept in the Caretaker party scene. I properly laughed out loud at that bit, and was another "lesson" from Luke that I thought worked well. Real shame that it was cut. 

 

 

It was funny, but probably a jokey subversion too far. They had enough scenes satirising the pomposity of the Jedi and emphasising how uninterested Luke is in perpetuating their teachings, I think this one would have made the fanbase spontaneously combust. See also the scene where Chewie and Rey come across Luke getting a pasting from all those AT-ATs and beat a hasty retreat - the film has earned the audience's investment by that point, they don't need to use comedy to undercut it.

[kensei]

2 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

We thinks the Lady doth protest too much. 

 

 

Well... rather than thinking this is what you think is suggested, you could look at the scene where Han Solo quite plainly explains that Luke is running away and hiding from it all after the disastrous event resulted from the training of his nephew going wrong.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86zgadLCu9g

 

He doesn't say that. He says he felt responsible and left, and went looking for the first Jedi Temple. The implication was he went looking for something, and it's a strange place to go to completely reject Jedi teachings. 

 

The statement is immediately followed up by the "It's all true" bit, which cements in the mind of the audience that the Jedi were real and good. And by extension, Luke. Few people predicted the direction TLJ took it in. 

[Kevvy Metal]

1 minute ago, kensei said:

 

He doesn't say that. He says he felt responsible and left, and went looking for the first Jedi Temple. The implication was he went looking for something, and it's a strange place to go to completely reject Jedi teachings. 

 

No, that's you adding that implication to it entirely. It's stated that he left to "get away from it all" to escape after feeling responsible for the pain caused by Kylo Ren. Looking for the first Jedi Temple could imply that he's looking for solace.. or yes, wanting to destroy or guard the origin of the whole religion. 

 

 

1 minute ago, kensei said:

 

The statement is immediately followed up by the "It's all true" bit, which cements in the mind of the audience that the Jedi were real and good. And by extension, Luke. Few people predicted the direction TLJ took it in. 

 

You're once again taking your own reading from this and applying assumption, again. Rey is giddy and excited about hearing someone talk of the legends of the Jedi and Han is responding in a somber and reflective tone. One that is yes, they did exist and they were once great, but it's all gone sour since his own son tore it all down. 

[Smitty]

On 08/07/2018 at 12:08, SMD said:

 

Yes, we've heard this many times and no one seems to be able to explain why TLJ suffers from "poor execution" other than blaming Space Casino Night Zone and Luke milking a Space Cow.

 

Is this a joke? Numerous people have explained at length the type of problems with pacing, scripting, story, tone, character etc that the film suffers from.

[kensei]

29 minutes ago, Kevvy Metal said:

 

No, that's you adding that implication to it entirely. It's stated that he left to "get away from it all" to escape after feeling responsible for the pain caused by Kylo Ren. Looking for the first Jedi Temple could imply that he's looking for solace.. or yes, wanting to destroy or guard the origin of the whole religion. 

 

 

 

You're once again taking your own reading from this and applying assumption, again. Rey is giddy and excited about hearing someone talk of the legends of the Jedi and Han is responding in a somber and reflective tone. One that is yes, they did exist and they were once great, but it's all gone sour since his own son tore it all down. 

 

TFA is at Vegas levels of manipulation for the entire run time. It plants implications. 

 

It doesn't close the possibility of TLJ, but since we know the original outline was scrapped, we know it wasn't what was planned. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

[sandman]

On 16 April 2018 at 12:18, Mr Cochese said:

The Force Awakens really painted whoever followed it up into a pretty horrific corner. You have the old characters inserted back into an ersatz future where the Rebeliion Mk II is still fighting the Empire Mk II. So the burning question is, how the fuck do you get from the massive victory at the end of Return Of The Jedi to exactly the same fucking predicament the heroes were in at the beginning of Star Wars? A question that The Force Awakens does nothing to answer itself, because "hey look, a mystery box!"

I have been trying to catch up on thus thread and boy there are a lot of pages!

 

Anyway, hats off to Cochese as he totally nails my problems with TFA (aka the most over rated film on the forum). 

[sandman]

On 16 April 2018 at 12:18, Mr Cochese said:

The Force Awakens really painted whoever followed it up into a pretty horrific corner. You have the old characters inserted back into an ersatz future where the Rebeliion Mk II is still fighting the Empire Mk II. So the burning question is, how the fuck do you get from the massive victory at the end of Return Of The Jedi to exactly the same fucking predicament the heroes were in at the beginning of Star Wars? A question that The Force Awakens does nothing to answer itself, because "hey look, a mystery box!"

 

 

I mean, why did they go through all that in the OT if it was all for nothing?  TFA makes it seem like nothing really changed at all.