Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[JohnC]

Did you even watch the movie?

 

The hyperspace tracking was their flagship tracking the resistance fleet.

 

The line you just quoted was when they were escaping to the planet on the transports. First Order were focusing on the remaining big ship with Holdo on it, not the transports. She was buying time with the big ship before they noticed the small transports.

[HarryBizzle]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Did you even watch the movie?

 

 

Read the line I quoted again. It’s past tense and said while Holdo is still alive and the First Order haven’t started shooting at them yet. 

 

Not “are tracking our big ship,” but “were tracking.” 

 

 

As I said, I don’t really care, so there’s no need to be condescending.

[Kevvy Metal]

Not long now till literally every film is going to be like Michael Bay’s Transformers. 

 

Why include character arcs with internal conflict , subversive twists and interesting themes to film when it seeming just flys over peoples head’s? 

[Guest]

It isn't the content that's the problem...it's the execution. 

[Kevvy Metal]

7 minutes ago, Unregistered User said:

It isn't the content that's the problem...it's the execution. 

 

And what if you have the case — which is from my perspective, that there’s almost nothing wrong with the execution of the film, bar a few niggles? 

[SMD]

14 minutes ago, Unregistered User said:

It isn't the content that's the problem...it's the execution. 

 

No one's criticism has been anything more substantial than "this doesn't make sense" and it's explained its "but why would they do that" 

[Kevvy Metal]

16 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

No one's criticism has been anything more substantial than "this doesn't make sense" and it's explained its "but why would they do that" 

 

Which then — ironically — makes the criticism, make absolutely no sense. 

[K]

I re-watched the Force Awakens on Friday night, and found it a bit odd that all the extreme plot contrivances and goofy humour in that film didn’t attract so much criticism - at least not in comparison to the Last Jedi. Almost the first thing Poe does in the former film is do a fourth-wall breaking gag when he faces off with Kylo Ren (“Do I talk first? Do you talk first? Not sure what to do here”), and nothing in TLJ is as arbitrary as the plot device whereby R2D2 has the other half of the secret map, but can’t let the resistance have it because he’s asleep. Is there any explanation as to why R2 suddenly comes to life at the end of the film, other than its time to find Luke and end the film? That feels like it’s more worthy of challenge than some of the supposed plot holes in TLJ (ie why doesn’t Holdo explain the plan to Poe? Why don’t the rebellion just hyperspace-suicide the empire from now on? Etc). 

[Guest]

It's because you can't discuss with someone who believes they hold all the  answers or will bend the narrative to fit their own conclusions. I'm exactly the same way about rogue one which I absolutely adore so I guess I should be happy for you that you've found something you also adore.  For me last jedi and the derisable TFA will always be films with so many good ideas but with very poor execution. 

 

 

[Delargey]

I'd say films with good ideas and uneven execution, both films have some scenes that are excellent and some that fall flat.

[Mystacon]

3 hours ago, Hanzo the Razor said:

 

They are Star Wars characters.  Rose and Holdo aren't.

 

Erm, yes they are. You might not like them, but they’re definitely Star Wars characters.

[Hanzo the Razor]

2 minutes ago, Mystacon said:

 

Erm, yes they are. You might not like them, but they’re definitely Star Wars characters.

 

mcbain.gif

[SMD]

15 minutes ago, Unregistered User said:

It's because you can't discuss with someone who believes they hold all the  answers or will bend the narrative to fit their own conclusions. I'm exactly the same way about rogue one which I absolutely adore so I guess I should be happy for you that you've found something you also adore.  For me last jedi and the derisable TFA will always be films with so many good ideas but with very poor execution. 

 

 

 

Yes, we've heard this many times and no one seems to be able to explain why TLJ suffers from "poor execution" other than blaming Space Casino Night Zone and Luke milking a Space Cow.

[MechE]

18 hours ago, Hanzo the Razor said:

 

Nein Nunb is cool as fuck.  Rose and Holdo aren't.  That's all I need to know about him.

 

[Kevvy Metal]

26 minutes ago, K said:

I re-watched the Force Awakens on Friday night, and found it a bit odd that all the extreme plot contrivances and goofy humour in that film didn’t attract so much criticism - at least not in comparison to the Last Jedi. Almost the first thing Poe does in the former film is do a fourth-wall breaking gag when he faces off with Kylo Ren (“Do I talk first? Do you talk first? Not sure what to do here”), and nothing in TLJ is as arbitrary as the plot device whereby R2D2 has the other half of the secret map, but can’t let the resistance have it because he’s asleep. Is there any explanation as to why R2 suddenly comes to life at the end of the film, other than its time to find Luke and end the film? That feels like it’s more worthy of challenge than some of the supposed plot holes in TLJ (ie why doesn’t Holdo explain the plan to Poe? Why don’t the rebellion just hyperspace-suicide the empire from now on? Etc). 

 

I think I read somewhere that apparently it’s the presence of BB-8 that kicks R2 out of sleep mode, but it takes the entire time spent attack Starkiller base for R2 to actually wake up. 

I agree that it’s absolutely a massive plot contrivance and most certainly thought so at the time. 

As much as I really enjoyed TFA, it’s absolutely far more of a logical mess that TLJ, but the two films do have a similar tone that’s brought forwards intact to TLJ, as you mentioned, with the frequent humour. 

[Delargey]

13 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

Yes, we've heard this many times and no one seems to be able to explain why TLJ suffers from "poor execution" other than blaming Space Casino Night Zone and Luke milking a Space Cow.

 

The space casino is about 30mins long though.

 

Leia's force space walk was a great idea but looked a bit rubbish in excution.

 

The slow chase could have been done better (The 33 episode in Battlestar Galactica is a good example of how a similar plot could have been handled).

 

Luke milking the space cow was awesome though.

 

It's all subjective though and if you liked bits you are more willing to forgive.

 

I loved all the Luke/Rey/Ren sections and really liked Snoke's death but loads of people hated it.

 

I think it could have been done better...it made it sound if Snoke could almost read Ren's thoughts and intentions which made people think he should have realised what was going to happen, I think if Snoke talked more about sensing Ren's emotions (feeling his hate but miss interpreting who it was aimed at) it would have got people more on-board.

[K]

Much as I liked them, Rose and Holdo fail the most basic rule of good characterisation, i.e. were they also a toy that I played with when I was seven?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

Yes, we've heard this many times and no one seems to be able to explain why TLJ suffers from "poor execution" other than blaming Space Casino Night Zone and Luke milking a Space Cow.

 

These are my issues:

 

- the initlal attack on the Dreadnought is too contrived. The dreadnought is pretty defenseless and defeated by the most slow moving attack ever - its convenient that the resistance fleet consists almost entirely of a squadron of bombers.  The battle felt like another rerun of the death star assault really. 

- the hyperspace tracking conceit.  Lazy. 

- slow chase doesn't make any sense.  The fo should easily be able to jump more ships in. 

- the canto blight debacle. 

- slapstick humour out of place 

- the whole mind link between. K and R. 

- F and R getting caught and Phasma being wasted again plus comedy BB8 at-St shenanigans. 

-  Snoke being an idiot. 

- the resistances plan - there's a fleet folowing them and noone would notice... Really? 

- hyperspace as a weapon. Breaks the universe. 

- the attack on the base - let's attack with couple of landing craft and a few ties - the resistance can't possibly win so what are we supposed to be excited about here. 

- the falcon manages to escape yet again plus the reused rotj sequence in the caves.  Crystal foxes? 

- romance?   Why?  Where did that come from? 

 

And more. 

 

I'm read all the justification for everything (so don't waste your time counterpointing all my issues with the film) but none of it has moved me to feel any different about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex W.]

Not getting in to all of that, but why is it convenient for the resistance remnant’s only meaningful antiship forces to be air-to-surface bombers? You can see how much of a pain in the ass it was to make that work. If they wanted to make it convenient wouldn’t they have written it to be a bunch of X-Wings or something?

[Chadruharazzeb]

1 hour ago, SMD said:

 

Yes, we've heard this many times and no one seems to be able to explain why TLJ suffers from "poor execution" other than blaming Space Casino Night Zone and Luke milking a Space Cow.

 

It's been explained numerous times, it's just that you don't want to see it.

[SMD]

I can't help you guys

[HarryBizzle]

1 hour ago, K said:

I re-watched the Force Awakens on Friday night, and found it a bit odd that all the extreme plot contrivances and goofy humour in that film didn’t attract so much criticism - at least not in comparison to the Last Jedi. Almost the first thing Poe does in the former film is do a fourth-wall breaking gag when he faces off with Kylo Ren (“Do I talk first? Do you talk first? Not sure what to do here”), and nothing in TLJ is as arbitrary as the plot device whereby R2D2 has the other half of the secret map, but can’t let the resistance have it because he’s asleep. Is there any explanation as to why R2 suddenly comes to life at the end of the film, other than its time to find Luke and end the film? That feels like it’s more worthy of challenge than some of the supposed plot holes in TLJ (ie why doesn’t Holdo explain the plan to Poe? Why don’t the rebellion just hyperspace-suicide the empire from now on? Etc). 

 

 

I’d generally agree with all of this. I prefer TLJ to TFA in just about every way. 

 

TFA was fun but had the feeling of it being a manipulative retread hanging over the whole thing, lots of hand waved bits (was it ever explained - in the actual film - why there was a map to Luke in the first place?), and I didn’t like what they did with Han. 

 

 

This morning, when I woke up, the thing that stayed with me about TLJ was that they did Luke right and I can’t really ask for much more than that. 

 

 

I still can’t believe that Casino stuff, though. Genuinely felt like a tribute to Phantom Menace. 

[Delargey]

43 minutes ago, Unregistered User said:

 

- the resistances plan - there's a fleet folowing them and noone would notice... Really? 

 

 

Just this one...The ship would have been cloaked from their radar, and compared to the vastness of space probably hard to see by the human eye.

 

 

 

[MechE]

1 hour ago, Delargey said:

The space casino is about 30mins long though.

It's ten minutes, (eleven at most), of which the awful cgi chase was about 2. 

[Guest]

I meant the multitude of craft leaving the ship to land on the planet. Its an obvious tactic. Also when the fo know they are there they are able to target them so shouldnt be able to see them anyway? Unless they weren't really looking... but they were.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Not getting in to all of that, but why is it convenient for the resistance remnant’s only meaningful antiship forces to be air-to-surface bombers? You can see how much of a pain in the ass it was to make that work. If they wanted to make it convenient wouldn’t they have written it to be a bunch of X-Wings or something?

 

Because the bombers can destroy the ship and it was clear the xwings etc couldnt.  

 

I'm still a bit annoyed that they killed off most pilots that survived that via the destruction of the landing bay. Gutted. 

[Delargey]

20 minutes ago, MechE said:

It's ten minutes, (eleven at most), of which the awful cgi chase was about 2. 

 

Really? It felt like longer.

 

Still, I think it's fair to say that section wasn't very well executed- I don't think anyone thought the cgi dog horse chase  was very gripping, at most it was just 'alright'.

 

[Delargey]

23 minutes ago, Unregistered User said:

I meant the multitude of craft leaving the ship to land on the planet. Its an obvious tactic. Also when the fo know they are there they are able to target them so shouldnt be able to see them anyway? Unless they weren't really looking... but they were.

 

I thought once the FO had the info that they were cloaked - they could scan for them specifically or something? I dunno.

 

The plan from Holdo was fine though - from what they knew - the FO was tracking the lead ship so have as many people as possible secretly  escape,  while she leads the FO away and make them think they had succeeded.

 

Obviously, it didn't work, but it was an ok plan.

[Guest]

I thought they weren't cloaked as such but hidden from view by the bulk of the cruiser.  I suppose it's a plan born from desperation and makes as much sense as anything in the slow mo chase. 

[K]

3 hours ago, HarryBizzle said:

 

 

I’d generally agree with all of this. I prefer TLJ to TFA in just about every way. 

 

TFA was fun but had the feeling of it being a manipulative retread hanging over the whole thing, lots of hand waved bits (was it ever explained - in the actual film - why there was a map to Luke in the first place?), and I didn’t like what they did with Han. 

 

Re-watching it, it felt like all the right pieces were there in TFA, and they'd got the emotional aspects spot on, it just felt like they hadn't been given enough time or space to finesse it. It hit all the right notes, but the connective tissue felt like they took the fastest route between two points, rather than the one that felt the most natural. But I thought the way they handled Han, Leia & Kylo was one of the best things about it. It might just be Harrison Ford's performance, but he really sold the guilt and regret he felt at leaving Leia and his son, and the conflict he felt when meeting them again. The scene between Kylo and Han was absolutely spellbinding - it's just the route they took to get there was a bit awkward and contrived.