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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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2 hours ago, Delargey said:

 

This is what happens when you send a janitor and a mechanic on a top secret mission.

Hang on. Who flew the ship? I can’t remember, but it wasn’t Finn was it? He couldn’t escape the First Order without a pilot, so it better not have been him.

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I guess Rose. He was flying a ship by the end of the movie so they must not be that hard to master.

 

Natalie Portman pushed the same red button to take off and turn on the comms in the prequels.

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I found Dirty Harry Potter's take on the enigmatic future of Star Wars interesting. I never heard any of those rumours prior to the prequels, but after the prequels my interest in Star Wars withered away and died completely. These stories and characters I used to love meant nothing to me anymore - I'd been shown the man behind the curtain so to speak.

 

I found the spark again in the year or two preceeding TFA when I found an online copy of the original movies as I first saw them, before all the meddling. They allowed me to effectively erase the prequels from my memory and I started to enjoy the universe again. So I got interested in the Ep.7 hype that I wouldn't have given a toss about a year or so earlier.

 

After TFA opened the wounds a little, but Rogue One put a bandage on that. I have only seen TLJ once, but my overriding memory of it was that Luke went out like a champ, and for that alone it was worth it.

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9 hours ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

I'm shocked Disney don't seem to understand the genius of this approach. Telling everyone there a grand master plan and its going to take years to execute. It was unique to Star Wars in the past - and in many ways key to its appeal for me.

 

But we know and it's been said time and time again that this isn't true, so do yourself a favour and stop believing it. Every Star Wars film was made up at the time they produced/wrote it. Vadar was never Luke's father. Leia was never Luke's sister. None of it was mapped out. There was no grand master plan. 

 

Also I think it's strange that the appeal of Star Wars to you was what might come in the future, rather than what was there already. And I think this goes some way to explain your disappointment in what we have now. It was never going to live up to what you imagined or hoped it would. Those films you were waiting for don't exist and never will.

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Lucas had outlines for sure. Just not fully developed scripts.

 

And if he had had someone else write and direct them - the prequels could have been amazing films.

 

I wasn't anticipating something that couldn't have been delivered. I was just anticipating more episodes of great characters going on a wild ride (in space ships!).

 

The only film that has come close (since the originals) was TFA - Finn and Rey have a great infectious, chemistry. And Poe was a charismatic back up. The worsts bits of that film are the ones that seem lazy and derivative (another Death Star raid etc) and unfortunately drag it down. But I forgave it because I though it was all going somewhere.......

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

And if he had had someone else write and direct them - the prequels could have been amazing films.

 

 

Absolutely - I’ve said before on here that if you can wade through the lack of good exposition, muddled script and cgi splatfest, the Palpatine power grab in the prequels is fantastic. I just wish Lucas had let people with a bit of sangfroid for the project have more influence on it. A well scripted/directed prequel trilogy could have been a worthy addition, and despite the massive issues with it, it very nearly is.

 

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12 hours ago, JPL said:

As I’ve said far too many times in here, it’s where I’m finding the most problems. I find it a fragmented,?meandering mess without any feeling of an epic journey.

 

Episode 7 and 8 have taken place over about 10 days. Where Rey has gone from a nobody to the most powerful Jedi in the universe with no formal training.

 

She is either going to be explained by JJ as another convergence of the force in Episode 9 ( yo Ani) or maybe more likely he will hope we've forgotten her rapid and illogical rise to greatness  - by distracting us with a big, glowy light in a cave.

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She always had the potential to be an incredibly powerful Force user (not necessarily Jedi, as Luke said, the Force does not belong to them). It was just more or less dormant, although it did make her a naturally excellent fighter just as it made young Luke "the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim" or however Biggs described him.

 

Luke keeps prodding her about why SHE came to find him, and eventually she says something like, "There's something inside me, it's always been there, but now it's awake, and I don't know what to do, and I'm scared." And since the awakening she's been inside Kylo's mind (when he tried to probe her and she instinctively pushed back, she saw all that he knew about the Force and all that he could do with it, so she suddenly had an idea of her own potential). Everything since then has been her exploring that potential and realising just how powerful she actually is.

 

I think Rey's story and its refocusing of the Force away from the religious dogma of the Jedi and Sith (where the prequels took it) and back into a living cosmic force of nature (as it was always described in the OT) is easily the best thing about the new films.

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Yeah I get it. It’s just seems like anti-drama to have a character that is miracleously already perfect, and goes against the idea of training being so important that George Lucas established in his six films. (which I could get behind if they had planned out a big story arc for several episodes.. but they haven’t. It’s just at the mercy of whoever is in charge that month).

 

I totally respect your enthusiasm though Darren - I just can’t see past how much of a mess the over arcing story appears to be.

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Yeah, I get that, although it does leave us with a character who’s incredibly powerful but undisciplined and so vulnerable to the temptation of the quick and easy path. If JJ chooses to go this way I can see her deciding to join Kylo “for the good of the Galaxy” or some such justification (in her mind) with disastrous consequences.

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8 hours ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

Lucas had outlines for sure. Just not fully developed scripts.

 

I suppose if you consider "there's going to be three films" an outline then sure, yeah he had one. 

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All you lot who are so adamant that Lucas made up the original trilogy as he went along, where are you getting your info from?

 

I’ve not looked into it too much, but I did see that interview where Hamill said he had it planned. I just find it a bit odd that as soon as anyone suggests Lucas might have had even the smallest inkling of where it was all heading that it’s complete bullshit.

 

It doesn’t matter to me either way to be honest, because even if he made it up on the days he was shooting it, he still managed to create something infinitely more compelling than what we’re getting now.

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Whereas being adamant that is was all a great big plan isn't weird? 

 

I'm not adamant I'm just going by the information available which indicates it's more likely there was no plan than there was, the biggies being;

Vadar was not Luke's father until they wrote Empire and needed the big twist

Leia was not Luke's sister until they wrote Jedi. The "That boy is our last hope", "No, there is another... " lines in Empire were written without any idea who the other was or what role they'd play in the next film

 

You can see this in the "Making Of..." books to see the original story notes, draft scripts and outlines, shows that there really wasn't much of a plan going into the sequels. In addition to the massive character/story points CLEARLY NOT PLANNED OUT mentioned above there's a load of smaller ideas that would have made huge differences to the stories, like at one point there were two Death Stars being built in Jedi. 

 

It worked out for them at the time, great, we got some really good films out of it, and I'm just responding to the comments that the new films are the worst things in the world ever BECAUSE they didn't plan out the trilogy, and the OT were masterful untouchable pieces of pure spunk BECAUSE they had it all planned out. They didn't. The OT were great for a number of reasons but a master plan was not one of them. I'm not sure why that is so hard to accept.

 

It doesn't matter anyway, they could have had a very thorough plan for the new films and it STILL wouldn't have satisfied everyone's own personal expectations of what they should be. And in this age of "10 things wrong with Rey's fingernails" YouTube clickbait shit any possible little problem will be amplified a million times and the rage will swell and the OT will be raised up even higher.

 

It was an OK film. Wasn't the best, wasn't the worst. Had some good bits. Had some shit bits. 

 

Things don't have to be TOTAL SHIT (*with a day one Bluray purchase) or UTTER BRILLIANCE. There is a middle ground.

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1 hour ago, Sponge said:

 

I suppose if you consider "there's going to be three films" an outline then sure, yeah he had one. 

 

Original plan was one movie and then some TV specials. Lucas was as surprised by the wild success as anyone. What became the novel Splinter of the Minds Eye was Plan A for a Star Wars TV sequel that could be done relatively cheaply.

 

Easy Riders, Raging Bulls has a good section on Lucas/Star Wars, his motivation (thought Disney was not making the most of their market) and the views of his contemporaries.

 

Thees also a good website with lots of details on the behind the scenes stuff, including lots on the various script permutations of the films, but I'm damned if I can remember the name of it.

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2 hours ago, Sponge said:

 

I suppose if you consider "there's going to be three films" an outline then sure, yeah he had one. 

 

That’s a really popular view of what Lucas did. But it’s a viewpoint that has become exaggerated over time and is a deliberate misreading of history. Of course all stories and scripts evolve and develop (especially for one this big). BUT when Lucas knew the first was a success he bet BIG about where his first Flash Gordon film could go next.

 

Star Wars was the first episodic blockbuster saga told over multiple films. It has never been done before on this scale.  Of course he had a plan for where it was headed, or he would have never ended his sequel on a cliff hanger (just as one example). And it’s frankly ludicrous to think you could pull off what he did without one.

 

Lucas in his heyday (late 70’s - early 80’s) was creating absolutely amazing work. And no one knew how to create a breath taking set piece better than him.

 

Read the the notes from the story meetings with Spielberg and Kasden. Lucas is brimming with great ideas and was leading everything. He lived by the outline. And that was also the point in time he was planning out his space saga.

 

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1 hour ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

 

Star Wars was the first episodic blockbuster saga told over multiple films. It has never been done before on this scale.  Of course he had a plan for where it was headed, or he would have never ended his sequel on a cliff hanger (just as one example). And it’s frankly ludicrous to think you could pull off what he did without one.

 

 

Even if he did have a plan, that plan radically changed when writing the scripts...Like, he didn't plan to have Luke want to fuck his sister.

 

Maybe after the success of the first movie, he planned out the other two, but even so, major characters changed for this. So I think it's fair to say that he had idea of where he wanted the story to go and the type of movie he wanted to make rather than a detailed break down.

 

 

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 And this trilogy has the same thing...like there was obviously a plan for Luke to be introduced in the first, and killed off (somehow) in the second, and for Ren and Ray to have the final show down in the third.

 

It was the details of how they got there that is dissappointing. Personally, I think it was down to JJ Abraham's setting up things without having an answer for them himself.

 

 

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Guys, how many Jedi can dance on the head of a pin???

 

I think the did he or didn't he have a plan is the worst topic on here since rear windu.

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7 hours ago, Dirty Harry Potter said:

 

That’s a really popular view of what Lucas did. But it’s a viewpoint that has become exaggerated over time and is a deliberate misreading of history. Of course all stories and scripts evolve and develop (especially for one this big). BUT when Lucas knew the first was a success he bet BIG about where his first Flash Gordon film could go next.

 

Deliberate misreading? What? Three films... nine films... I think it was even twelve films at one point. It was however many (and they were as planned out) as Lucas felt like saying on that day. 

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9 hours ago, Delargey said:

 And this trilogy has the same thing...like there was obviously a plan for Luke to be introduced in the first, and killed off (somehow) in the second, and for Ren and Ray to have the final show down in the third.

 

It was the details of how they got there that is dissappointing. Personally, I think it was down to JJ Abraham's setting up things without having an answer for them himself.

 

 

 

I'm not convinced of that. There seems to be remarkably little linkage between TFA and TLJ, other than a chat to get things lined up - like a change to the end of TFA so Luke isn't floating rocks. It seems reasonable that Abrams had his own ideas on where things should go when filming - Simon Peg said recently there were ideas of Rey's lineage floating about, and Rian Johnson basically turfed them out. 

 

Whatever planning and background there was around the OT, it seems deeper and broader. But maybe more importantly, Lucas had the final call over changes. That's not the same here. 

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Johnson said “I wasn’t given any directive as to what that had to be...I was never given the information that she is this or she is that.” so I'm not sure, if it was a key plot point JJ had in mind like an 'I am your father!' moment I'm sure he would have told him. 

 

We'll never know, maybe he did, and Rian just binned them, or maybe JJ had a vague idea whilst filming FA but it wasn't important enough for him to insist on it.

 

Pegg talked about Rey having a "relevant lineage" which, to me, is the worst thing they could have done...

 

His reasoning behind it seems pretty sound as well...

"Rey learning that she was related to someone like Luke Skywalker would have been “the easiest thing she could possibly hear.”

“The hardest thing to hear is, ‘Nope, this is not gonna define you,’” Johnson added. “And, in fact, Kylo is gonna use this to try and undercut your confidence so you’ll feel you have to lean on him for your identity . . . you’re gonna have to make the choice to find your own identity in this story.”

 

I think having a show runner with a clear vision for how the trilogy will play out would be a good thing...depending of course on the showrunner.

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A good friend of mine does a lot of marketing for the bods at Disney. He has done stuff connected to every SW film since Rogue One, and also the Marvel releases.

 

And even though he is dealing with the same people in the same office - the way they approach approvals on both properties is very, very different. Anything connected to the Marvel universe is a nightmare to get pushed through and signed off. Disney are all over every little detail. SW on the the other hand is much looser and they let his company have more fun with the property than you might think they would. They are willing to try new things, almost as if they aren't sure what it is yet.

 

Which is actually interesting when you consider that is the approach they seem to be taking to these films.

 

This is a great analysis of the evolution of SW music and what it reveals about the different approaches taken to the trilogies.

 

 

 

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Ultimately what JJ thought was neither here not there, it's Disney calling the shots. We'll probably never find out what the deal was with Colin Trevorrow either, but I think it's safe to say the process has not been as coherent as you'd like to see. 

 

Anyway:

 

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What they really needed to replace the slow car chase was the storyline to the first few episodes of Battlestar Galactica, where the Galactica is being chased through FTL and has to jump every 33 minutes or face distruction. That was great and incredibly tense, and worked a lot better than "our ships are flying slightly faster than theirs but not actually fast enough to get away". 

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If I had any 'hopes' for the film story (not especially hopes though, more like thoughts that might have been interesting to pursue...), is that by the end of the thing, Rey would have properly turned out to be the bad one and Ren would have redeemed himself and been the dude to sort everything out. That feels to me to be a pretty good basis for a trilogy of films, whilst having nice echoes of all the other films in there for good measure.

 

But quite honestly, I can't see that happening now at all.

 

Which is a shame, because literally all they had to do was to fire me off an email, and I'd have let them have that idea for free and everyone would have been much happier.

 

 

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3 hours ago, JoeK said:

If I had any 'hopes' for the film story (not especially hopes though, more like thoughts that might have been interesting to pursue...), is that by the end of the thing, Rey would have properly turned out to be the bad one and Ren would have redeemed himself and been the dude to sort everything out. That feels to me to be a pretty good basis for a trilogy of films, whilst having nice echoes of all the other films in there for good measure.

 

But quite honestly, I can't see that happening now at all.

 

Which is a shame, because literally all they had to do was to fire me off an email, and I'd have let them have that idea for free and everyone would have been much happier.

 

 

That seems boringly obvious to me and I almost hope they don't do that in a way. Although I totally agree that technically it would fit in very well and that's why anything outside of stories related to the Skywalker family are going to be more interesting. Well, hopefully.

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