Jump to content
rllmuk
Sign in to follow this  
Steven

Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Recommended Posts

I'll admit I think it would have probably been better if Finn did commit suicide in a way but that's unlikely to happen in a kids movie.

What they do in the whole film is not fighting what they hate but saving what they love with the very slow but safe escape and not letting Poe do more risky things like the bombing of one Dreadnaught to risk potentially more deaths.

 

I think for the general possibility of opening up the franchise and what he had been given from JJ, it needs to almost have that kind of lineage/ genes doesn't matter and not mentioning midichlorians so again a lot of its baggage is an issue.

 

It's still undeniably got problems but I do think it's a much better modern version of star wars than what the fan theories would have suggested or if they just literally filmed the Timothy Zahn books (and I thought they were good when they came out).

 

I also imagine it would be a nightmare to direct one of these at all.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree that it isn't a horrendous mess. It isn't great but there have been a lot lot worse movies from equally big franchises or directors/ studios.

 

Then again, I went in expecting it to be really terrible so was pleasantly surprised it wasn't another justice league, which on paper should be even easier to make not shit than a star wars sequel.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Hexx said:

 

 

But again - it's rather telling you're saying you like it for what is isn't. 

People dislike liking it are looking for what it is and saying "that's what you replaced it with?" They don't care what it's not - the care the gumph it was replaced with.

 

Very very few would care if the subversion was interestingly written or well handled. 

 

I don't like it for what 'it isn't'. Rey coming to terms with her parents was wicked, I don't see what poorly handed with that.

 

People have said, only a few pages ago, that they just want good guys vs bad guys. Literally, saying they don't want subversion. (That's fair enough though I would find that a bit predictable).

 

To be honest...It sounds like you are just the 'I HATE THIS' guy...unwilling to give the movie anything.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Delargey said:

To be honest...It sounds like you are just the 'I HATE THIS' guy...unwilling to give the movie anything.

 

Um...I liked the Luke/Leia scene?

 

But yeah other than that I think I’d really struggle :lol:

 

Actually I liked Kylo - and the not firing (although I like the clearer reason in the book better - but mainly how it serves Leia) And then someone else just doing it.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Delargey said:

What was the reason in the book? 

 

 

He senses she wasn’t angry with him and it gives him pause.


I’m told I’ve not read it - but I think that’s really nice and less expected than a simple  ‘she loved him’

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Delargey said:

 

I don't like it for what 'it isn't'. Rey coming to terms with her parents was wicked, I don't see what poorly handed with that.

 

People have said, only a few pages ago, that they just want good guys vs bad guys. Literally, saying they don't want subversion. (That's fair enough though I would find that a bit predictable).

 

To be honest...It sounds like you are just the 'I HATE THIS' guy...unwilling to give the movie anything.

It was me that simplified it down to wanting good guys vs bad guys.

 

The reason I said it isn’t because I hate my expectations being messed with, it’s just that it’s been so overdone in this film, it became weirdly unsurprising as it went on. I wouldn’t have minded the odd thing, but changing absolutely everything that JJ had hinted at felt petty and egotistical of Johnson to me.

 

As @Hexx said a few posts back, it feels like they were too busy patting themselves on the back with all their misdirections that they forgot to write a decent story to put them in.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I like having my expectations played with...especially as the set ups in the FA awakens weren't that exciting to me (I'd have hated it if Reys parents were special).

 

I think a lot of the problems with the movie would still exist, even if these elements played out as people expected/differently.

 

Also I think JJ wrote Rains into a corner on a lot of things. I read He asked JJ who Rey's  parents were an JJ didn't know. The old mystery box.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a big post ready and then my phone fucked it all up.

 

I just don't get why the Rebellion still exists, surely some time after RotJ and once the New Republic are in power again the Rebellion should have merged with the New Republic?

 

After RotJ the Empire should be in tatters. The First order should be the little guys on the run, no? And yet they some how manage to build a planet size super weapon in the same star system where the majority of the New Republic are located?! The New Republic seemed to be doing nothing about the First order.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Delargey said:

Personally, I like having my expectations played with...especially as the set ups in the FA awakens weren't that exciting to me (I'd have hated it if Reys parents were special).

 

I think a lot of the problems with the movie would still exist, even if these elements played out as people expected/differently.

 

Also I think JJ wrote Rains into a corner on a lot of things. I read He asked JJ who Rey's  parents were an JJ didn't know. The old mystery box.

 

Maybe it’s all JJ’s fault then... He set everything up to be a tantalising mystery. He didn’t have any idea what the answers would be, but left Johnson with the job of trying to get it all to make sense.

 

As completely mental as that sounds when you’ve got the job of rebooting Star Wars, I still feel Johnson went way too far with subverting all the expectations a lot of people had and didn’t create any satisfactory resolves for anything that was setup.

 

Regardless of all the mysteries JJ had put in place, I quite enjoyed the characters he created. Another thing that Johnson didn’t like.

 

Now we’ve got JJ back to try and recorrect everything Johnson changed. Madness.

 

Its almost as though they’re making this shit up as they go! Who was it that said they found that notion laughable?

 

Oh, and I love having my expectations messed with. It’s just that it was so clumsily done in this, and far too frequently, that by the end I was rolling my eyes at the next ‘surprise’.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Max Damage said:

I had a big post ready and then my phone fucked it all up.

 

I just don't get why the Rebellion still exists, surely some time after RotJ and once the New Republic are in power again the Rebellion should have merged with the New Republic?

 

After RotJ the Empire should be in tatters. The First order should be the little guys on the run, no? And yet they some how manage to build a planet size super weapon in the same star system where the majority of the New Republic are located?! The New Republic seemed to be doing nothing about the First order.

 

 

 

 

It’s another ‘you need to read the books’ I’m afraid.

 

The New Republic isn’t taking the threat of the First Order seriously, Leia’s politically screwed because they found out who her dad was, and so can’t get any support in the senate, so she and Ackbar form the Resistance, because they’ve realised that First Order is dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 18/04/2018 at 12:21, Sprite Machine said:

I thought the same thing at first, but in hindsight I realise this is just my cultural bias at play. I expect the male hero to be clued in, that he deserves to have all the facts presented to him so he can make the right calls.

 

But he doesn't deserve that, it's nonsense. He's an unreliable hothead who just got himself demoted, who doesn't listen to his commanding officers, and Holdo doesn't have to tell him anything, particularly the details of her secret plan to save everybody from a enemy that has been shown to be tracking them. She doesn't need a reason to withold need-to-know intel. The plan is supposed to be secret - it literally won't work if it isn't (and, in fact, it doesn't).

 

That Poe's (and my) mistake leads to a lengthy and pointless trip to a CGI-strewn casino planet is my only issue with this.

 

You are describing what the film wants to be, not what it is.

 

- A good commander would recognise that Poe is a hothead liable to do something and manage him accordingly. Holdo still comes across as incompetent 

 

- Poe was only recently demoted and was a confident of Leia. There is apparently, bugger all people left in a galaxy protecting fleet so standing on chain of command seems nonsensical. 

 

- The film deliberately manipulates you into siding with Poe. That's its intention. We know Poe is heroic and a good guy from TFA. Holdo is a no one that's just walked on. A more confident film would have pitted Leia against Poe - characters we both know are good. 

 

- 'Oh look at that cheeky Poe, I like him'.  Seriously 

 

- Remember today's message kids: always follow orders! 

 

But even that sort of messes the wood for the trees, the whole setup is a bit weak. What happens if Poe doesn't blow up that Dreadnought? They still get followed and now there is a Dreadnought as well, so they are completely screwed. The initial scene isn't clear cut, but they never really acknowledge it. Plus the 'they are faster, we can't possibly just jump a couple of ships ahead to cut them off is... a bit stupid. 

 

Like it's not the worst thing I've ever seen in the cinema, but that whole plot relies on people being incompetent and a bit of a shiny setup. It's not a mystery why it's disliked. For what they were going for, I think it would have been better if they had to defend a populated planet. Try a set it up so you have a situation where one shot will set things off, and have a twitchy Pope in the middle of it. Maybe have the FO offer terms to the planet leaders in return for giving up the rebel. You can explore the rebellion as hope themes etc without popping off to a random casino planet. And unlike a chase, it wouldn't have been already done in Star Wars. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, kensei said:

- The film deliberately manipulates you into siding with Poe. That's its intention. We know Poe is heroic and a good guy from TFA. Holdo is a no one that's just walked on. A more confident film would have pitted Leia against Poe - characters we both know are good. 

But I mean, that's kind of the point of the subversion, isn't it? You're thinking one thing and it proves you wrong. You're supposed to think Poe is right and Holdo is wrong (the ignorant Admiral / heroic Fly Boy trope) and then find out that the situation wasn't what you thought it was. It made me re-examine my biases. It wouldn't have worked if it was Leia.

 

I agree that it doesn't do this as well as it could have. It is messy.

 

33 minutes ago, kensei said:

and have a twitchy Pope in the middle of it.

Lol. :)

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

But I mean, that's kind of the point of the subversion, isn't it? You're thinking one thing and it proves you wrong. You're supposed to think Poe is right and Holdo is wrong (the ignorant Admiral / heroic Fly Boy trope) and then find out that the situation wasn't what you thought it was. It made me re-examine my biases. It wouldn't have worked if it was Leia.

 

I agree that it doesn't do this as well as it could have. It is messy.

 

Lol. :)

 

I think if you do that, the film has to conclusively "prove you wrong". It doesn't. Holdo's plan ultimately fails too, as a direct result of her not informing Poe. Its also seeking to undermine a trope that is so well worn its almost a trope in itself. If you are going to do it, nail it. 

 

I think Rian had the right sort of instincts to mix things up, but he just fluffed the execution on some of the threads, and didn't know when to reign it in - as has already been commented, the film seems to want to do it on every single plot point. Intellectually, I sort of prefer them to take risks, but practically I came out of TFA mostly up and interested, and TLS pretty flat and uninterested in what happens next. 

 

Abrams is probably gonna tonally shift the whole thing again for IX too. I think they need one director - or at least 'show runner' per main trilogy. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watched all the extras yesterday and it must be soul destroying receiving such a large out pouring of hate of the film when it took sooo much time, effort & money to make.

I expect reading his bank statement eases the pain a bit, lol.

 

 

I liked it a lot on first viewing at the cinema, had a few minor quibbles like the daft Last Guardian stampede through the daft casino, but no film is perfect.

Watching it again in supposed 4K HDR soured it a fair bit as I felt ripped off.

 

Still looking forward to JJ's finale. Although TFA was majorly similar to the previous films, it was a fantastic spectacle that still gets me grinning. I'm positive he'll get it right.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@kensei I think the point about them needing a show runner is bang on the money. The first trilogy had different directors, but Lucas kept it all together and regardless of whether he was making it up as he went along as some people want to believe, he managed to pull off a grand, cohesive story.

 

For me it keeps coming back to them not having a planned direction for this trilogy, and nobody who seems to be overseeing a planned vision, that has made it a big mess.

 

I didint ever want to feel like this, but I’ll be glad when this trilogy is over and they can move on. Hopefully they’ve learned from it and the next one is better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, kensei said:

It doesn't. Holdo's plan ultimately fails too, as a direct result of her not informing Poe.

Well, no, as a direct result of Poe disobeying orders. I can't get behind the idea that the Admiral "should have known" Poe would go off on a mad adventure to recruit a snitchy hacker who would undermine the whole plan and therefore it's her fault. But that's what I did think at first, because the film doesn't do enough to hammer that point and place the blame where it belongs (no consequence for Poe's actions), so it ends up sort of undermining itself.

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm very cold on TLJ, but of the announced films I'm probably most excited about Rian's trilogy. He must have pitched an idea, and he'll not have to work around ideas he obviously hates. I hope he pulls it off, not least because the run up will be a controversy laden shit show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

Well, no, as a direct result of Poe disobeying orders. I can't get behind the idea that the Admiral "should have known" Poe would go off on a mad adventure to recruit a snitchy hacker who would undermine the whole plan and therefore it's her fault. But that's what I did think at first, because the film doesn't do enough to hammer that point and place the blame where it belongs (no consequence for Poe's actions), so it ends up sort of undermining itself.

 

Also Poe *should* have told Holdo he knew how the FO was tracking them. That was probably really handy information for them that he just kept secret because he didn't think Holdo liked him.

 

Really, though, it was Rose and Finn who fucked things up because they couldn't be bothered to find a parking spot, so had recruit an dodgy as fuck hacker and didn't think about asking for a bit of privacy before they chatted to Poe.

 

Poe had no idea who was in the room and though he was only giving information to Rose and Finn so that's on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Delargey said:

Really, though, it was Rose and Finn who fucked things up because they couldn't be bothered to find a parking spot,

:lol: I'd forgotten about that. Oh god!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too be fair...you probably needed permission to land on the fancy rich people planet which they couldn't get so landing on a beach in front of the casino is the next best thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve got a question for the people who are enjoying this trilogy.

 

What do you think of the story? Are you finding it as intriguing and exciting as the original trilogy?

 

As I’ve said far too many times in here, it’s where I’m finding the most problems. I find it a fragmented,?meandering mess without any feeling of an epic journey.

 

I’m interested to know if you’re happy with it, as I just can’t get my head around how you could be.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm finding the Force side of the story very intriguing, and I liked what TLJ did with that in particular. I love the idea of the Force not being a power of the Jedi and Sith but being - as Obi-Wan and Yoda both described it in the OT - an energy that binds ALL living things. I like it being a cosmic law of nature in this universe, that calls to individuals, rather than a superpower passed down to people with the right genes.

 

They've cocked up a bit in general with the galactic war side of things. In the OT the Empire were clearly in charge and clearly bad, while the Rebels were clearly the plucky good guys going up against the evil oppressors. This time around they obviously wanted a replacement Empire but without being very clear on how it came to be or even (so far in the films) how much of the galaxy it actually controls. It's hinted (including in TLJ's opening crawl) that the First Order have effectively replaced the New Republic in a military coup (via the Starkiller shot in TFA) but because we never see this in effect anywhere it's far from obvious. Whereas in the OT we had stormtroopers patrolling Mos Eisley, occupying Cloud City etc. so they were visibly in control everywhere. Perhaps we'll see a bit of that in the next film.

 

This is explored a bit more in some of the spin off novels but you shouldn't have to read them to understand the films, and even then the whole Snoke/First Order origin is still quite vague even to those of us daft sods who've read them all.

 

As a story overall it suffers from following the OT, which ended the Empire, while wanting an equivalent group of baddies for the heroes to battle. As I wrote that I wondered whether it might have been better to have the threat arise from within, i.e. a faction rising within the New Republic that disagrees with its wishy-washy ways and wants to return to the glory days and iron strength of the Empire. That might have been more interesting but also more like the Prequels (nobody watches Star Wars for the politics) and also possibly a bit too on the nose given Trump and Brexit...

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Delargey said:

Too be fair...you probably needed permission to land on the fancy rich people planet which they couldn't get so landing on a beach in front of the casino is the next best thing.

 

Thet could have landed on the massive 10 foot tall crops they ran through right by the casino and been less obvious

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate this may just be my point of view.. and I that I could be an old school SW fan that should get with the program...but ..

 

A key part of Star Wars in the past was the anticipation of films that were literally years away. I remember at school in the late 80's rumours passing around that there were still more Star Wars to come - George Lucas had planned out more episodes that he would make one day in the far off future. Some about Obi Wan, and then some about Old Luke.

 

The concept of George having a mythic yellow secret binder full of the continuing Star Wars episodes - was a tantalising one (whatever the actual truth of it was).. And George understood how potent this idea was.

 

The odd rumour would circlate in the media in the preceding years... Maculay Culkin has been cast to play young Luke Skywalker.. Kenneth Brannor as Obi- Wan etc. And it just added to the excitement of these things one day coming out.

 

By the time Episode 1 came it was almost like the second coming... people had been waiting soooo long .. and that wasn't down to marketing spend - it was down to the amount of time it had been in the making. And yes, we know how that went down. But even after Episode 3 George Lucas still kept getting bombarded withe questions about Episode 7, as he had said years ago he had it mapped out and had even shown that new trilogy to other people.

 

I'm shocked Disney don't seem to understand the genius of this approach. Telling everyone there a grand master plan and its going to take years to execute. It was unique to Star Wars in the past - and in many ways key to its appeal. Marvel also copied this formula with great success..

 

Instead Disney hired the best minds in Hollywood to rush out films with no clear idea where any of this was going. Think about that for a second. There is/was no caretaker, or show-runner that had a creative vision for a franchise this big. The franchise that had been the blueprint for the multi-film epic narrative. George had been humiliatingly and publicly thrown out. And then what we get is a relay race - which is at complete odds with the past success of the films. And something Disney didn't seem to understand a tall.

 

Its Star Wars - so it was going to make crazy money however dubious the plan was for a while. But over saturating the market in random EU stories come to life is going to grind the whole thing to a halt really soon. Its already started for me. I'm sure I will see Solo. But properly not at the cinema. A first for Star Wars and me.

 

And as a life long fan, I have next to zero interest in Episode 9. And that's completely down to Episode 8. The prequels didn't even have that effect on me.

 

 

 

  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hexx said:

 

Thet could have landed on the massive 10 foot tall crops they ran through right by the casino and been less obvious

 

This is what happens when you send a janitor and a mechanic on a top secret mission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought it on Blu-ray the day it come out, but it's still sat there in the cellophane, unwatched. I just...I dunno. Can't be arsed? That's not how getting a new star wars film on home release should be. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JPL said:

I’ve got a question for the people who are enjoying this trilogy.

 

What do you think of the story? Are you finding it as intriguing and exciting as the original trilogy?

 

I've got to start by saying that outside of A New Hope (which is just an outstanding standalone film), the story was never really the appealing part of the original trilogy for me. As a kid I used to watch my favourite set pieces in Empire and Jedi over and over again because I found them exciting, but rarely had the desire to watch the whole films, so I'm not a traditional Star Wars fan. I should also say that what I find interesting and intriguing these days is very different to what 8 year old me did. So when I say I find TLJ as intriguing as the original trilogy, I'm looking at it from a very different perspective.

 

I find this story of people having to live with the legacy of the OT fascinating:

  • There's Ren's struggle to move out of the shadow of his grandfather. I liked his transition from tribute act to leader and am interested to see how he handles this new found power.
  • Rey's clearly been harbouring a fantasy of being part of the grand narrative up until now. She's a fan girl of the Rebel Alliance and it's been fascinating watching her having to let go of all of that and find her own purpose. Again, we've only seen a glimpse of who she really can be unburdened by her past, so I'm keen to see where this takes them.
  • I've really liked seeing Luke struggle with the responsibility of failing Ren, and thereby also failing Han and Leia, (and his dead students). I thought his journey from anger and self-pity, to hero again was well told, and a fitting conclusion to his story.
  • Finn's story has been the most frustratingly underdeveloped for me. I liked that he story has provided us with some insight into the impact and cruelty of the Empire and First Order. From him we learn that blowing up the Deathstar didn't completely destroy all the power structures of the Empire, and that people like him were still suffering under them even after the end of the OT. I liked that his story-line was used to throw more light on this in TLJ, and like I've said previously, I'm keen to see how 'woke' Finn is used as a counterbalance to Ren in the next film.
  • Han and Leia's story-line has been heart breaking and I'm very disappointed that we're not going to get the resolution to that thread hinted at in TLJ.

So yes, I like the story, but for the characterisation it allows to take place, rather than the plot.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.