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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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14 minutes ago, Tourist said:

 

Yes I understand. As I have explained above, in order to shoehorn this dangerously subversive notion that Poe is a mansplaining flyboy, the film is literally unbelievable and unbelievably stupid.

 

Well, you've explained that you think it's unbelievable that an officer could make a reckless decision that costs his subordinates' lives, or that the troops could follow his orders to their deaths, or that doing something completely unexpected could put the enemy on the back foot, in which case I assume you also don't believe the Charge of the Light Brigade or D-Day could possibly have happened either.

 

Nobody brought up mansplaining. Where did that come from?

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The mansplaining was my favourite bit of TLJ. I really enjoy the fact that in a $250m blockbuster sci-fi franchise film, one of the protagonist's character arcs is to learn to stop mansplaining.

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27 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

Fucking hell, at this point I'd just cancel star wars and create the multi award franchise "Anal Retentive Space Lord" starring mostly white men acting entirely logically and a POV sex scene to save on fanfic. I'll collect that £200m crowd funding now.

 

Why do keep bringing sexism into this? All the chapters involved here are male, last time I checked. 

 

As per the comment I have already written above, if that conversation occurs between Han and Grand Moff Tarkin, the only outcome is to undermine Tarkin's character - even if Han's ruse fails, unlike Poe's in TLJ. Which is exactly what happens in TLJ with General Hux. 

 

No one is saying there isn't room for humour in Star Wars. Or slightly madcap plans - the whole thing is a homage to Flash Gordon, for fucks sake. But used appropriately . People keep asking what exactly is meant by "I think the execution is poor", and then when examples are given, completely ignore the point and start slabbing. 

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The difference between Han in Star Wars and Poe in TLJ is that Han is a two-bit crook making it up as he goes along. He knows it probably won't work and sure enough, it doesn't. Poe is a Billy Big Balls who thinks he can take on the entire enemy fleet single handedly because a few hours earlier he fired the shot that blew up their entire base planet. So far he's never failed in any mission so he thinks he's infallible.

 

Han doesn't need to learn that hustling doesn't always work, but Poe does need to learn that going in all guns blazing is not the answer to everything.

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1 hour ago, K said:

The mansplaining was my favourite bit of TLJ. I really enjoy the fact that in a $250m blockbuster sci-fi franchise film, one of the protagonist's character arcs is to learn to stop mansplaining.

 

But they already did this, much more subtly, without having to constrain the story, in TFA, when Fin meets Rey on Jakku.

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41 minutes ago, Darren said:

The difference between Han in Star Wars and Poe in TLJ is that Han is a two-bit crook making it up as he goes along. He knows it probably won't work and sure enough, it doesn't. Poe is a Billy Big Balls who thinks he can take on the entire enemy fleet single handedly because a few hours earlier he fired the shot that blew up their entire base planet. So far he's never failed in any mission so he thinks he's infallible.

 

Han doesn't need to learn that hustling doesn't always work, but Poe does need to learn that going in all guns blazing is not the answer to everything.

 

The difference is no one gives a shit about making Hux a cartoon villain, and Gleeson's doesn't have the clout of Peter Cushing.

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46 minutes ago, Tourist said:

 

But they already did this, much more subtly, without having to constrain the story, in TFA, when Fin meets Rey on Jakku.

 

I dunno, it’s like lightsaber duels. I’ve seen them before, but I’m always happy to see another one. 

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Could someone link to that Hulk Film Critic post that was a while back? I had put it in a tab to read later, but I appear to have lost it. 

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54 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

The difference is no one gives a shit about making Hux a cartoon villain, and Gleeson's doesn't have the clout of Peter Cushing.

 

It's not about making him a cartoon villain, it's about quickly (re)establishing his character: pompous, self-important and blinded to imminent risk by his overinflated sense of superiority. He's a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dunning Kruger Effect in human form.

 

I agree he doesn't have the gravitas of Tarkin (I think this is down to the character rather than the actor though) but who does? He's more like Mr Bronson in TESB. 

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3 hours ago, Tourist said:

 

Uh, did you actually watch the film? The bombers all get destroyed. The only reason they manage to destroy the huge enemy ship is because the bad guys are so monumentally stupid that they let a lone rebel fighter take out all of their defences and then the last remaining bomber gets some sort of plot/force assistance. 

 

Poe's fighter taking out all the ships defences makes no sense. Guns explicitly designed and built to counter fast moving small fighter craft cannot target fast moving small fighter craft. 

 

So one fighter craft can just destroy all of their cannons. 

 

It's offensively stupid awkward contrived screenplay writing.

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3 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

It's not about making him a cartoon villain, it's about quickly (re)establishing his character: pompous, self-important and blinded to imminent risk by his overinflated sense of superiority. He's a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dunning Kruger Effect in human form.

 

I agree he doesn't have the gravitas of Tarkin (I think this is down to the character rather than the actor though) but who does? He's more like Mr Bronson in TESB. 

 

Oh come on Darren. Fair play you like the movie, it's hardly trash, but he is absolutely a cartoon villian who carries zero threat or weight. 

 

The phonecall scene is disastrous as far as tone and tension goes. It's terrible and belongs in a comedy.

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2 hours ago, K said:

 

If you didn't like that bit, then I have some very bad news about the last twenty minutes of the original Star Wars.

 

And those two are completely different as well you know.

 

One is a one in a million shot, the other is the very things designed for defence not being able to carry out defence. 

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2 hours ago, SMD said:

 

Fucking hell, at this point I'd just cancel star wars and create the multi award franchise "Anal Retentive Space Lord" starring mostly white men acting entirely logically and a POV sex scene to save on fanfic. I'll collect that £200m crowd funding now.

 

Again and again with the same lazy and grossly offensivefalse dichtomy. Is it possible to dislike this movie without morons like you implying that everyone who does is an immature sexist racist, or not?

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6 minutes ago, Smitty said:

 

And those two are completely different as well you know.

 

One is a one in a million shot, the other is the very things designed for defence not being able to carry out defence. 

 

They spend ages in the Death Star sequence shooting towers and turrets that are presumably only present to provide defence against small, fast-moving craft (and doing so pretty successfully with relatively minimal loss.) Poe doing this single-handedly (but with no TIE fighter support because of his phone tricks) isn't that far removed from what's already been established.

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3 minutes ago, Smitty said:

 

Oh come on Darren. Fair play you like the movie, it's hardly trash, but he is absolutely a cartoon villian who carries zero threat or weight. 

 

The phonecall scene is disastrous as far as tone and tension goes. It's terrible and belongs in a comedy.

 

I genuinely liked it. What can I say!

 

Just to counter the impression that I'm such a fanboy that I'll unquestioningly lap up anything that says Star Wars on it, even I don't think TLJ is perfect. I think I said in my very earliest impressions in this thread that it's flawed, it takes a lot of risks and they don't all work, but I'd rather that than playing it safe, which was fine for TFA to get us back on track after the prequels, but another by the numbers retread of the original films would have been very dull compared to what we got which (for me) opened things up in new and interesting directions.

 

For example, I can see the point of the Canto Bight mission but I think the execution is poor compared to the rest of the film, especially that tracking shot past all the wacky aliens in the casino, and the whole chase sequence. And of course it contains the worst character in the entire film, DJ, who is essential for Finn's character development but performed absolutely terribly. If we're going to complain about comedy characters I'd start with him and his ridiculous stutter, which is even less convincing than Michael Palin's in A Fish Called Wanda and can only be an attempt by Benicio Del Toro to make himself the millennials' Jar Jar Binks, possibly for a bet.

 

I certainly don't think TLJ is perfect but I do think it's the best and the most interesting of the new films and the best Star Wars film since Empire. I've no problem people having other views but I can't help responding when someone says something in the film is "literally unbelievable" when it's a direct parallel with actual real life events that have happened in Real Wars.

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13 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

 

They spend ages in the Death Star sequence shooting towers and turrets that are presumably only present to provide defence against small, fast-moving craft (and doing so pretty successfully with relatively minimal loss.) Poe doing this single-handedly (but with no TIE fighter support because of his phone tricks) isn't that far removed from what's already been established.

 

Well no most of them are killed. They're also moving at like max speeds in straight lines. They are multiple targets.Poe is just one solitary fighter just casually zipping around them in circles at close range and at low speeds .

 

He single handedly cripples the defences of a ship called a Dreadnaught FFS. It's absurd. 

 

This kind of thing, a succussion of things like this cause people like me to switch off because you sense correctly that there are no limits and so everything is meaningless. The writer can and will invent any scenario they like. 

 

Why can Poe single handedly destroy a huge ships nested overlapping self defence system? Because the writer says he can. 

 

The end result is that nothing feels consequential because any problem can just be written out of, leaving the justification to be done by strangers on the internet who like your movie. 

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2 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I genuinely liked it. What can I say!

 

 

If it feels good let it! That's always my way of thinking. Like what you like and trust your gut. 

 

Critique is so unbelievably subjective that no one is truly right or wrong with all this. 

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12 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I genuinely liked it. What can I say!

 

Just to counter the impression that I'm such a fanboy that I'll unquestioningly lap up anything that says Star Wars on it, even I don't think TLJ is perfect. I think I said in my very earliest impressions in this thread that it's flawed, it takes a lot of risks and they don't all work, but I'd rather that than playing it safe, which was fine for TFA to get us back on track after the prequels, but another by the numbers retread of the original films would have been very dull compared to what we got which (for me) opened things up in new and interesting directions.

 

For example, I can see the point of the Canto Bight mission but I think the execution is poor compared to the rest of the film, especially that tracking shot past all the wacky aliens in the casino, and the whole chase sequence. And of course it contains the worst character in the entire film, DJ, who is essential for Finn's character development but performed absolutely terribly. If we're going to complain about comedy characters I'd start with him and his ridiculous stutter, which is even less convincing than Michael Palin's in A Fish Called Wanda and can only be an attempt by Benicio Del Toro to make himself the millennials' Jar Jar Binks, possibly for a bet.

 

I certainly don't think TLJ is perfect but I do think it's the best and the most interesting of the new films and the best Star Wars film since Empire. I've no problem people having other views but I can't help responding when someone says something in the film is "literally unbelievable" when it's a direct parallel with actual real life events that have happened in Real Wars.

 

I've literally never expressed or even intimated such a view of you. 

 

Also I was talking about about the poor characterisation of Hux, not the believibilty of Poe's bomber attack plan.

 

That said, what is literally unbelievable is that you can sneak a load of slow moving bombers up to an on-alert giant spaceship without it noticing. But that's what happens in the movie. I guess the rebels have black hole stealth technology now? 

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13 minutes ago, Smitty said:

I've literally never expressed or even intimated such a view of you. 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had, that was a more general caveat for anybody (still) reading the thread...

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5 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had, that was a more general caveat for anybody (still) reading the thread...

 

I seem to recall that you were hard on the prequels (or should i say fair) so I don't hold any kind of view that you're a 'IF IT SAYS STAR WARS I'M IN' type of fanboy.

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35 minutes ago, Darren said:

I'd rather that than playing it safe, which was fine for TFA

 

Ugh. TFA did not play it safe. It was every bit as subversive as TLJ, but it managed it without having to sacrifice narrative logic, and, apparently, without many people noticing. At no point during TFA was it difficult to suspend your disbelief. At every juncture in TLJ it is impossible to suspend any disbelief because the narrative has been contrived and contorted to support whatever thematic points the director wants to make. And so every character in TLJ does stuff that is unbelievable, and mostly unbelievably stupid. The whole movie is predicated on literally everybody in it being monumentally stupid. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Darren said:

 

It's not about making him a cartoon villain, it's about quickly (re)establishing his character: pompous, self-important and blinded to imminent risk by his overinflated sense of superiority. He's a combination of the Peter Principle and the Dunning Kruger Effect in human form.

 

I agree he doesn't have the gravitas of Tarkin (I think this is down to the character rather than the actor though) but who does? He's more like Mr Bronson in TESB. 

 

I know what they want to do. But the result - and it's almost equally the fault of TFA - is that Hux is a parody of what they want him to be. This is what I mean with execution - I'd love a good character undone by flaws but the whole scene is played for cheap laughs, most at Hux's expense. Its followed up later too, when Kylo Ren batters him about multiple times.

 

There was a chance for a moment of real tension too, a genuine conflict when Snoke dies and Hux discovers it. Why should the mantle fall to the welder of the Force, and not the leader of the armies? What's Kylo done to warrant it? But for all the rug pulling TLJ doesn't follow through. 

 

Hux is a secondary character, but the originals took care with their supporting cast. The new ones don't feel like they do. Phasma is another example. Waste. 

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59 minutes ago, Darren said:

I certainly don't think TLJ is perfect but I do think it's the best and the most interesting of the new films and the best Star Wars film since Empire. I've no problem people having other views but I can't help responding when someone says something in the film is "literally unbelievable" when it's a direct parallel with actual real life events that have happened in Real Wars.

 

This absolutely echoes my views too.  Seen it umpteen times now and I still really enjoy it.  And some of the artistic styles are the best seen in the whole saga - Crait and Snoke's throne room for example.  Stunning.

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7 minutes ago, Tourist said:

 

Ugh. TFA did not play it safe. It was every bit as subversive as TLJ, but it managed it without having to sacrifice narrative logic, and, apparently, without many people noticing. At no point during TFA was it difficult to suspend your disbelief. At every juncture in TLJ it is impossible to suspend any disbelief because the narrative has been contrived and contorted to support whatever thematic points the director wants to make. And so every character in TLJ does stuff that is unbelievable, and mostly unbelievably stupid. The whole movie is predicated on literally everybody in it being monumentally stupid. 

 

 

 

I re-watched TFA the other night, and struggled to suspend my disbelief on a few occasions. The main one is the bizarre plot device whereby R2-D2 has half of the map to find Luke / the temple, but is spending a year dead for tax reasons, and then decides to come back to life and hand over the map because the film is about to end. I honestly don't understand what is supposed to be happening there from an in-universe perspective. It makes sense that R2 might have the map, but the story should have been about getting the other half - as it is, you have this weird structure where the characters go all-out trying to find BB-8, find him halfway through, but then can't progress to the next step of the quest because R2 won't wake up until they're a high enough level, so they have to grind out some kills on the Starkiller side-mission.

 

The string of coincidences in the film was a bit hard to swallow, as well. Rey lives on Jakku, which is where BB-8 crash-lands, which is also where the Millennium Falcon has been abandoned. You can have one of those without stretching credibility, but not all three. The universe seems a bit small - Maz also has Luke's lightsaber for some reason; they bump into Phasma and Rey when wandering round the planet-sized Starkiller base. Etc. None of it kills the film, but it did make me think some of the above could have been done a bit less clumsily.

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I never really got the idea of a map to Luke.  Why does there need to be a map?  Just the name of the planet or some coordinates would do it.

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12 minutes ago, K said:

 

I re-watched TFA the other night, and struggled to suspend my disbelief on a few occasions.

 

And yet when a series of major events that seriously attack anyone's suspension of disbelief is critiqued in TLJ, you're suddenly putting scare quotes galore around the term plotholes.

 

There's no sense at ALL to TFO not jumping ahead of the rebels fleet, but you like the movie so you feel obligated to pretend that criticising it is stupid.

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30 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

I know what they want to do. But the result - and it's almost equally the fault of TFA - is that Hux is a parody of what they want him to be. This is what I mean with execution - I'd love a good character undone by flaws but the whole scene is played for cheap laughs, most at Hux's expense. Its followed up later too, when Kylo Ren batters him about multiple times.

 

There was a chance for a moment of real tension too, a genuine conflict when Snoke dies and Hux discovers it. Why should the mantle fall to the welder of the Force, and not the leader of the armies? What's Kylo done to warrant it? But for all the rug pulling TLJ doesn't follow through. 

 

Hux is a secondary character, but the originals took care with their supporting cast. The new ones don't feel like they do. Phasma is another example. Waste. 

 

Yes, all that matters is the final result. That's the thing to take away from my criticisms of Poe destroying all the point-defence cannons on a fearsome gigantic Dreadnaught (or the phonecall) - the important thing ultimately isn't 'realism' but what the end result of such antics is: the enemy doesn't feel like a threat.

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