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Star Wars: The Last Jedi - December 2017

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11 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

It'd not just "butthurt" fanboys. Literally everywhere there is an opportunity to comment is awash with people that either hated the film or had major reservations. I've chatted to people in real life that were unsure.

 

Also, Snoke isn't the same as the Emperor, for reasons already discussed.

 

Why isn't he? Before the prequels he was just a big bad who was pulling the strings. We see a glimpse of The Emporer as he talks to Vader via hollogram before we see him in person. Same with Snoke.

 

They pulled the rug out from under us and people dont like that they did something unexpected cause it messes with theor theories..

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10 hours ago, MrPogo said:

 

I instantly recognised him from the rather Eddie Hitler delivery of the first line, but having not seen him in anything made in the last 20 years I then spent the rest of the film wondering if it actually was, or just someone very similar!

 

Mark Hamill is a big fan of Rik Mayall apparently, so that may explain how he got cast.

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15 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

Portrayal and treatment of Luke is a missed opportunity of the century when it comes to popular cinema. Very insulting.

 

See I was happy with his portryal. Again its people just not being happy because he didn't 

Spoiler

Swoop in at the last minute to save the day and have an epic lightsaber battle with lightning and objects being thrown. Like done so many times in so many other action films.

 

His character has grown into something different because he feels he fucked up. He let the dark side in when he tried to kill Ben. It was only for a second but it was there. In doing so he failed himself, Ben, Han, Leia and the Jedi order. By training up Ben and letting him being turned he feels responsible and he struggled with that guilt. So he locked himself away so he is unable to teach anyone else about the ways of the force in case it happened again (which it nearly did with Rey).

 

He uses his last amount of strength to project himself and help save the resistence from dying out. At that point when he comes too, he's finally at one with the force, something I dont think he every truely was (he never even completed his training properly). He lets go of his body and spirit to the force.

 

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I'd guess the main objection people have with Snoke is he was presented as a big mystery in TFA, which was taken as the promise of a big reveal to come. People then felt let down by the lack of an explanation they were sure was coming; no background revealed, didn't really do anything. If you'd seen him properly in the last film there'd be less complaining about him in this one! Mainly he just seemed to join the list of potentially great but massively underused villains, like Darth Maul, Count Dooku and General Grievous

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1 minute ago, MrPogo said:

I'd guess the main objection people have with Snoke is he was presented as a big mystery in TFA, which was taken as the promise of a big reveal to come. People then felt let down by lack of explanation; no background revealed, didn't really do anything. Mainly he just seemed to join the list of potentially great but massively underused villains, like Darth Maul, Count Dooku and General Grievous

 

Yeah I get that and I would still like the know more but I applaude them for going in a different direction. 

Spoiler

I dont want a carbon copy of Emporer and Vader. He pull the strings, tells the Sith lord what to do and then eventually said Sith lord turns good and kills him in the final part.

 

Nah, the Sith lord this time just said fuck that, I'm gonna be the Supreme leader. Im going to be in charge and im going to have Rey do it with me. Obviously the last part of his plan didnt work.

 

We still have another film to explain things but I like how theyve turned things on its head by not going with fan theories.

 

If Snoke was someone everyone had been guessing or Rey was the grandchild of Obi Wan, we'd be discussing how predictable the film was right now.

 

Lose/lose it seems 

 

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3 minutes ago, Treble said:

I liked Snoke

 

 

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I'm already bored of emperors, bored of all CGI villains. I won't throw Serkis under the bus because his performance was fabulous, but how many times do we need to see the same all-powerful, arrogant villain in this series? Sidelining then eliminating him was a stroke of genius that lets us focus on Kylo proper - a conflicted character who's not just a mustachioed, panto cliché.

 

As for Luke:

 

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Just fantastic. One of the crimes of the Prequels was reducing the Force to a set of RPG style power ups: reach Jedi Master level to unlock Force Lightning absorption, etc. 

 


 

Luke using the Force to project himself across the frikkin Galaxy to save his friends whilst not harming a single person? THAT is the light side of the Force, people! Defence, never attack with victory still achieved.

 

 

 

Spot on.

 

You still only gave it 2/5 though :P

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27 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

Why isn't he? Before the prequels he was just a big bad who was pulling the strings. We see a glimpse of The Emporer as he talks to Vader via hollogram before we see him in person. Same with Snoke.

 

They pulled the rug out from under us and people dont like that they did something unexpected cause it messes with theor theories..

 

Spoiler

As I've ready said: Context. The Empire is the status quo. The world.shows you the power, reach and evil of the Empire. The Emperor needs no motivation than the destroy the rebels. He's background - mentioned in ANH, glimpsed in TESB and finally revealed - as a pretty awesome baddie - in ROTJ.

 

The status quo in TFA is the Republic. Why does Snoke want to overthrow it? What's his connection to the Empire and the Sith - people we've seen overthrown before? He's directly responsible for turning one of our main protagonists - how did he do it? What does Snoke's needs and wants mean for Kylo's? The world isn't the Empire's any more, so we can't relate it to them. All we see is Space Nazis.

 

So the answer can be Snoke is just bad, and the Empire is just really bad and they both want to do bad things. But it's a crap answer.

 

They did tee him up as an Emperor riff. The whole "I controlled everything". They didn't have to, and I thought just did it as a prelude.to something new. Instead, offed. Another wasted baddie, a poor man's Emperor.

 

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3 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

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As I've ready said: Context. The Empire is the status quo. The world.shows you the power, reach and evil of the Empire. The Emperor needs no motivation than the destroy the rebels. He's background - mentioned in ANH, glimpsed in TESB and finally revealed - as a pretty awesome baddie - in ROTJ.

 

The status quo in TFA is the Republic. Why does Snoke want to overthrow it? What's his connection to the Empire and the Sith - people we've seen overthrown before? He's directly responsible for turning one of our main protagonists - how did he do it? What does Snoke's needs and wants mean for Kylo's? The world isn't the Empire's any more, so we can't relate it to them. All we see is Space Nazis.

 

So the answer can be Snoke is just bad, and the Empire is just really bad and they both want to do bad things. But it's a crap answer.

 

They did tee him up as an Emperor riff. The whole "I controlled everything". They didn't have to, and I thought just did it as a prelude.to something new. Instead, offed. Another wasted baddie, a poor man's Emperor.

 

Actually yeah that's perfectly sound but i still liked it cause of the unpredictability of it and what does it mean now.

 

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Luke's ending was good bar

 

Spoiler

There was literally no reason for him to die. 

 

Second, vast projection is one of those things they've did that are cool in the film, but potentially break the universe. The light speed tracker and kamikaze also fall into this category. It's transwarp and magic blood in Star Trek Into Darkness. They'll basically have to ignore it or massively retcon.

 

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20 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

See I was happy with his portryal. Again its people just not being happy because he didn't 

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Swoop in at the last minute to save the day and have an epic lightsaber battle with lightning and objects being thrown. Like done so many times in so many other action films.

 

His character has grown into something different because he feels he fucked up. He let the dark side in when he tried to kill Ben. It was only for a second but it was there. In doing so he failed himself, Ben, Han, Leia and the Jedi order. By training up Ben and letting him being turned he feels responsible and he struggled with that guilt. So he locked himself away so he is unable to teach anyone else about the ways of the force in case it happened again (which it nearly did with Rey).

 

He uses his last amount of strength to project himself and help save the resistence from dying out. At that point when he comes too, he's finally at one with the force, something I dont think he every truely was (he never even completed his training properly). He lets go of his body and spirit to the force.

 

 

This is the same movie series that one movie prior gave Han Solo zero character development in-between 30 years, not even a change of clothing. So yes, expectation of some damn fanfare out of Luke Skywalker, a hero millions grew up with, was a given.

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1 minute ago, Stigweard said:

Actually yeah that's perfectly sound but i still liked it cause of the unpredictability of it and what does it mean now.

 

 

I can live with one, maybe two, of those. But the film felt it wanted to do it for every single beat. It's so busy wanting to rewrite Star Wars that it stops feeling like Star Wars. Something like that, I can't put my finger on why I just didn't get on with it.

 

I never liked TFA as much as the forum. But I walked out of it really wanting to see what happens next. After this one, I have zero excitement for IX. It feels as blank a slate as VII was a few years back.

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13 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

This is the same movie series that one movie prior gave Han Solo zero character development in-between 30 years, not even a change of clothing. So yes, expectation of some damn fanfare out of Luke Skywalker, a hero millions grew up with, was a given.

 

Han is and was always selfish. Luke wears his heart on his sleeve, what he did he couldnt live with. Han escaped what happened to Ben by fucking off and going back to what he did best, looking out for number 1. 

 

People react differently to things 

 

If Luke did get fanfare theyd be accused of pandering and digging up nostalgia again. Instead they took his character in a different direction. Its perfectly reasonable.

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54 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

 

Yeah I get that and I would still like the know more but I applaude them for going in a different direction. 

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I dont want a carbon copy of Emporer and Vader. He pull the strings, tells the Sith lord what to do and then eventually said Sith lord turns good and kills him in the final part.

 

Nah, the Sith lord this time just said fuck that, I'm gonna be the Supreme leader. Im going to be in charge and im going to have Rey do it with me. Obviously the last part of his plan didnt work.

 

We still have another film to explain things but I like how theyve turned things on its head by not going with fan theories.

 

If Snoke was someone everyone had been guessing or Rey was the grandchild of Obi Wan, we'd be discussing how predictable the film was right now.

 

Lose/lose it seems 

 

 

If they want to change how the mythology works, they should establish some of the changes first at least.

 

Spoiler

You even use the phrase "Sith Lord" when he is clearly not - nowhere in the movie is he mentioned as such. You use the same terminology as the mythology but you disregard how the mythology works. A master and an apprentice. Kylo is not officially an apprentice, like Darth Maul, for example, he is clearly still trying to win Snoke's favor. If they want to ditch that, fine, no problems with me, but they already built upon the known mythology in the first movie (god knows why if they were just going to kill him off like a simpleton) and then they simply say "well, no need for him now, just take him out".

 

The Emperor was also very one dimensional and that is why he essentially appears in the end of the first trilogy. Vader was the interesting one. But Lucas had clearly defined him and his powers back then - he is fucking powerful. It takes Luke's astonishing resilience and Vader's turn to the light side in order to bring him down (essentially the unbreakable bond between father and son). That is the perfect example of a great villain. Very simple to present, very complex to deal with. 

 

With Snoke, they establish him as someone at least as powerful as the Emperor (someone mentioned info from the books), they show him to be the main threat, this great manipulator that even succeeds where the Emperor failed (!) - makes a son kill his father. You have built him up. Of course the audience wants to know more about him. Where is the crazy in that? 

 

We don't need to know his bio but we do need to know some information about his place in the dark side: is he a new kind of Sith? Is he planning to change how the dark side operates? He is not presented as a simple villain, he is presented as a major antagonist in the TFA, the main threat. Killing him off like that of course feels like a cop out (essentially it was a very bad way to show Kylo's rise).

 

It's not a lose/lose situation at all. Creating a complex villain, no matter if we have seen him before, is never a lose situation. Just look at Nolan's joker.

 

Spoiler

If they did expanded on Snoke, I doubt you would be here calling them out for it, claiming it would be so much better "if they just didn't tell us anything and killed him off like a simpleton". 

 

The film has great moments and it is certainly better than the prequels (which they have some really cool moments themselves) but this specific thing and the film's terrible

Spoiler

rebel - mutiny - escape

plot are legitimate problems that drag the movie down. It feels that JJ and Johson had very different views on how to proceed, based on the TFA and this.

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19 minutes ago, kensei said:

Luke's ending was good bar

 

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There was literally no reason for him to die. 

 

 

Spoiler

True it didn't but like I said, I see it as him accepting his time is over and hes becoming one with the force just like Obi Wan and Yoda did. They "let go"

 

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23 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

I can live with one, maybe two, of those. But the film felt it wanted to do it for every single beat. It's so busy wanting to rewrite Star Wars that it stops feeling like Star Wars. Something like that, I can't put my finger on why I just didn't get on with it.

 

I think this is right. The film is so determined not to do what you expect that it just ends up feeling overly pleased with itself. Take Benicio Del Toro's character arc.

 

Spoiler

He's just a blagger. No, he's not! But he is selfish. Wait, he's rescued us, he's nice! No, he's not! Oh wait, he is! No, he's not.

 

And despite all that, the character is still entirely throwaway and forgettable.

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20 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

I can live with one, maybe two, of those. But the film felt it wanted to do it for every single beat. It's so busy wanting to rewrite Star Wars that it stops feeling like Star Wars. Something like that, I can't put my finger on why I just didn't get on with it.

 

I never liked TFA as much as the forum. But I walked out of it really wanting to see what happens next. After this one, I have zero excitement for IX. It feels as blank a slate as VII was a few years back.

 

I can’t agree that it’s rewriting Star Wars when it’s telling its own story.

 

Spoiler

I loved that Rey’s parents were nobodies. TFA never suggested they were anything special, it was only fans giving them any relevance.

 

And I loved the offing of Snoke. We might find out where he came from, but I don’t think it matters right now. This story is now about Kylo’s rise to the top, and Snoke was just someone who happened to get in his way. I love that.

 

Who knows, we might get Snoke: A Star Wars Story somewhere down the line ;)

 

Re: Episode IX...

 

Spoiler

But it is true that after TFA I had so many questions, and couldn’t wait to see the next one to find out some answers. What will happen with Luke? Who is Snoke? Where did Rey come from? What was the Luke/R2 flashback all about? VIII tied up most of these but didn’t really raise any new ones.

 

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@Talk Show Host I used sith lord as a flipant term to describe the sitation to be honest. Apprentice probably would have been a better term to use.

 

Spoiler

You're right i wouldnt be arguing the toss if he was still alive and we'd got more about him but what they did Im kinda was fine with me. A waste? Sure, but for pushing forward Kylos character, a massive step.

 

Some theories think theres a resurrection chamber or he was projecting hinself into another body.

 

Not really sure on those as good ideas mind.

 

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9 minutes ago, Stigweard said:

@Talk Show Host I used sith lord as a flipant term to describe the sitation to be honest. Apprentice probably would have been a better term to use.

 

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You're right i wouldnt be arguing the toss if he was still alive and we'd got more about him but what they did Im kinda was fine with me. A waste? Sure, but for pushing forward Kylos character, a massive step.

 

Some theories think theres a resurrection chamber or he was projecting hinself into another body.

 

Not really sure on those as good ideas mind.

 

 

Oh, sure, of course it was a massive step for Kylo. I said it before in a previous post, for both him and Rey

 

Spoiler

(Luke's death).

 

It was just handled so bad in my opinion. What we got in this plotline felt totally disconnected from what the previous film had prepared us for. It makes me think that the first movie and this one had a clash of vision in very fundamental areas of the story and the mythology. Maybe that is why JJ is coming back?

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Just came out from seeing it.  Really enjoyed it.

 

Just read the impressions here... Jesus I never even considered most of them :lol:

 

It's difficult to argue against a lot of the criticisms, most are perfectly valid, however I personally don't feel the need to question the motivations or actions of every character. 

 

There were so many unanswered questions in the original trilogy, and these tended to intrigue fans rather than annoy them. Some of these unanswered questions or plot holes were explained in later movies, others not. Sometimes they got explained and that turned out to be shit! 

 

I can't help but feel that in this age of armies of online armchair critics we're losing the mystique (whether intentional or not by the movie makers) of fantasy films. Are people holding this movie to a different, unfair standard?

 

But hey, after watching Episode 1 the first time I proclaimed it amazing, so you can safely ignore my opinions :lol:

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I've seen it twice now - going for a third viewing on Monday, and then a fourth with my son next weekend. After two viewings I can confirm that (for me, at least) even though I really enjoyed it first time around, as the overall shape of the film and each of its many key moments begin to settle in and feel more recognisable, I love it all the more, and I'm totally comfortable ranking it among the best Star Wars films (whether it's above or below Return of the Jedi or The Empire Strikes Back, or whatever your favourite happens to be, isn't really that important - the fact that it's so obviously OT-level quality rather than PT-level is all that matters). I'm fascinated by how mixed the fans' reactions have been on Rotten Tomatoes - something like 55% fresh after more than 300 reviews - while critics are almost unanimously in agreement that it's an excellent film, maybe even a great one. It might just turn out to be the Blade Runner of Star Wars films, as I expect time and familiarity will be very kind to it. The more I think about it now, the more I'm able to get past some of the initially jarring twists and surprises and accept it for everything that it is. I'm close to declaring it the second-best Star Wars film after Empire. Maybe the third viewing on Monday will nudge it into that second-place spot. Will let you know!

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37 minutes ago, Paulando said:

 

I can’t agree that it’s rewriting Star Wars when it’s telling its own story.

 

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I loved that Rey’s parents were nobodies. TFA never suggested they were anything special, it was only fans giving them any relevance.

 

And I loved the offing of Snoke. We might find out where he came from, but I don’t think it matters right now. This story is now about Kylo’s rise to the top, and Snoke was just someone who happened to get in his way. I love that.

 

Who knows, we might get Snoke: A Star Wars Story somewhere down the line ;)

 

Re: Episode IX...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

But it is true that after TFA I had so many questions, and couldn’t wait to see the next one to find out some answers. What will happen with Luke? Who is Snoke? Where did Rey come from? What was the Luke/R2 flashback all about? VIII tied up most of these but didn’t really raise any new ones.

 

 

Spoiler

I don't mind Rey's parents are nobodies (probably, Kylo is an unreliable source), I think it's good.you don't have to be space royalty to be a powerful Jedi. Rey's growth because plot remains problematic. In Empire, you were scared for Luke not just because he was going to face Vader, but because he'd already failed. The Force was dangerous, even to him. Rey just succeeds at everything, all the time.

 

I don't mind them offing Snoke to bring Kylo to the top. I suggested it as a good idea in the TFA thread - Sith Apprentice finally wins. Just do the groundwork first. Needing another film is terrible for this one.

 

The Rise of the New Order seems a far more interesting trilogy, though.

 

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45 minutes ago, DirkCrisis said:

Why does Snoke live in a Pet Shop Boys video?

 

Snoke: (sings to Kylo) I've got the brains, you've got the looks* - let's kill lots of Jedi.

 

* relatively speaking at least

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I wasn't a fan, it was too long, the pacing was all over the place.

 

Re: Kylo Ren

 

Once again showing that he's the least intimidating and least threatening villain. If you are a computer, an elevator, a helmet, or an unarmed old man. He has your number. Everybody else? You might be able to take him.

 

Just so much wasted screen time, more evidence that the Rebels are actually utterly inept.

 

 

So they build up Phasma before the first film. And she's nothing but a scrub in The Force Awakens. Then they write a novel, and a comic book about how amazing Phasma is, to build her up again. Then she's nothing but a scrub in The Last Jedi. In a film that is 2 and a half hours long, her scenes could have been cut entirely and it would have no real difference. She might as well have been "random stormtrooper".

 

The whole Canto Bight bit was more or less pointless, but at least that was fun and remotely interesting. But ultimately it was pointless. Poe goes to the new Admiral and begs her to tell him that there's a plan, tell him something. She pretty much goes "Nah, we've got no plan, just biding time", all whilst HAVING A GODDAMN PLAN. All she has to say is, "Poe, bruv. See that planet we're making our way towards? That's an old hidden Rebel base, we're going to use the main ship as a diversion and then leave on cloaked transports.", and Poe would have been all, "Oh cool, thanks for sharing the plan, I'm going to work on a back-up plan just in case. Sound good? Cool."

 

But nope, inept 'good guys' intentionally keep each other out of the loop for reasons.

 

Also, Leia has full blown force shield and flying powers. Maybe would have been a good idea to train with Luke and become a jedi too. But that would make too much sense, why not just put the whole weight of the universe on his shoulders instead.

 

I was however, really glad that Rey's parents were 'nobodies', just a shitty family that sold their daughter.[/spoilers]

 

 

 

About 20-30 minutes into the movie, I came to the sudden realisation that, I don't think I give a shit about Star Wars any more, and the 2 hours that followed only made that more obvious to me.

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1 hour ago, NickC said:

There were so many unanswered questions in the original trilogy, and these tended to intrigue fans rather than annoy them. Some of these unanswered questions or plot holes were explained in later movies, others not. I can't help but feel that in this age of armchair critics we're losing the mystique (whether intentional or not by the movie makers) of fantasy films. Are people holding this movie to a different, unfair standard?

 

Yes. 

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As much as I have issues with both FA and TLJ, they are vastly superior to the prequels. To be honest, I think I only hold the originals up so high because of nostalgia. In my head, the original trilogy was StarWars at it's most darkest? or was that just because I was young when I saw it (I last watched them again when I was 16).  Whenever I find of the most memorable moments of Star Wars I think of the Luke vs Vader fight where he chops his dads arm off, the battle in the last movie and the death/reveal of vader in the third film.

 

Spoiler

The Han Solo moment in TFA echoes that, I think that's why I was disappointed with TLJ as it didn't have anything like that.

 

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