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deKay
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Had a wee go on each of the N64 games last night, definitely looking forward to earning the medals in Starfox 64, which still feels great to play. Decided to grab the first star in Mario 64 as well and ended up getting a half-dozen. Saved at the start of the Deku Tree in Ocarina of Time and beat the first stage of Dr Mario (it's boring). I'll crack on with Operation Winback then move on to Sin & Punishment since those are the two I didn't complete back in the day.

 

Mario Kart 64 feels faster, even at 50cc. I know it's because the PAL version was sluggish but it's different from how I remember it. Still my least favourite in the series, but maybe not as bad as I remember it.

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4 minutes ago, scottcr said:

the megadrive games are absolutely tip-top

 

And almost all of them on the Mega Drive collection, with another 40 games, for £9.

 

It's a shame, really.

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2 hours ago, CheekyLee said:

It's £34.99. That gets you 4 curated collections, cloud saves, online play, Tetris 99, Pacman 99, and the Animal Crossing DLC. And that's just today, we already know that there will be more N64 games added. Is it value-for-money? You decide. But is it £60 for N64 emulation? No, stop saying it is.

 

You're renting the AC dlc

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It's sad to see other Nintendo fans defending this. In the years since the N64 there's been so many revisionist takes about it with words like ugly, clunky and unplayable casually thrown around. I worry that the quality of emulation on offer here will do nothing to counter those perceptions among people who are new to the system or who haven't played on real hardware in a long time.

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6 minutes ago, Marlowe said:

It's sad to see other Nintendo fans defending this. In the years since the N64 there's been so many revisionist takes about it with words like ugly, clunky and unplayable casually thrown around. I worry that the quality of emulation on offer here will do nothing to counter those perceptions among people who are new to the system or who haven't played on real hardware in a long time.

Defending what? There’s certainly nothing wrong with them visually for the most part, and I’m finding them playable- what’s your experience with them been like? 

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6 hours ago, Stanley said:

PC emulation is always going to do it better


PC Emulation should not always be better than ports that cost money from the original developer who has access to the source code. Nintendo just don’t care about doing a good job because people will pay anyway. For a lot of us who love their classic games they basically have us over a barrel, they own our treasured childhood memories and if we want an easy way to play them on a modern TV we have to accept whatever lazy version of that they give us.

 

I’m sure the N64 emulation is fine (I’m not paying for it), and will allow people to enjoy the games they remember. But the fact that these are anything less than perfect ports with a bunch of options is really disappointing when they have the resources and funds to make these releases infinitely better than the free versions hobbyist emulator developers are creating. 

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2 hours ago, Fallows said:

 

If you're playing with real hardware and a wired controller on a CRT there's practically zero lag. It's a tiny fraction of one ms.

 

Software emulation (done right = 1ms, done the Nintendo way = 3ms and up!)

LCD Display tech (a good TV with a nice Game Mode will give 1ms)

Controller comms. tech (Bluetooth is generally laggy, but still acceptable (DS4 is great) with Nintendo being the absolute worst at this.

 

So you get three variable servings of latency playing old games on new tech. I think it's a sullying of their old work - they should either port all of these games properly or just not fucking bother. They play miles better on the real thing (or FPGA). Response. It's all about response. Outside of competitive PC gaming the rest of the industry seems to have forgotten that great response makes a great game. This is why I mostly play retro stuff - because it's snappy AF.

 

I always get into rants about this. My PC gamer friend used to say I was overblowing things until I let him compare SMK on the Wii VC downstairs and on an actual SFC up here. He said it was like playing a totally different game, and that he actively wanted to play more of it on the real hardware.

 

Absolutely 100% agree with this.

 

From my POV Nintendo have been so hell bent on short term shareholder appeasement in recent times that they've kinda lost the plot.

 

The N64 catches a lot of flack for having a small library of games that generally haven't aged too well, poor 3rd party support etc etc etc but 6-8 added frames of lag will decimate enjoyment of its best works. It's a shitty implementation being sold at a premium.

 

Clowns.

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14 minutes ago, Broker said:


PC Emulation should not always be better than ports that cost money from the original developer who has access to the source code. Nintendo just don’t care about doing a good job because people will pay anyway. For a lot of us who love their classic games they basically have us over a barrel, they own our treasured childhood memories and if we want an easy way to play them on a modern TV we have to accept whatever lazy version of that they give us.

 

I’m sure the N64 emulation is fine (I’m not paying for it), and will allow people to enjoy the games they remember. But the fact that these are anything less than perfect ports with a bunch of options is really disappointing when they have the resources and funds to make these releases infinitely better than the free versions hobbyist emulator developers are creating. 

My only hope is that they do take notice of the backlash from this, but as you say the only thing that would really make them do anything is if it doesn’t sell. 
 

It’s a shame Digital Foundry don’t do a breakdown of it, I would have thought this type of thing on the market leaders console would be right up their street. Probably too busy making Crysis videos. 

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2 hours ago, Fallows said:

No one should be paying for ROM dumps.

 

I don't have a problem with paying for ROM dumps, but the emulator used needs to do a good job and provide a satisfying experience even if it's not a perfect replication of the hardware and its input latency. It sounds like Nintendo have failed on that front, here.

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18 minutes ago, The Mighty Ash said:

Not everyone inspects games with the navel gazing ferocity of digital foundry. For the average gamer, its fine.

 

to add to that with old games I always expect them to be a bit shit now when I play them, if you aren't pixel peeping you are never sure if it was like that originally or its janky emulation.

 

as has been said most people couldn't care less and won't even notice.

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20 minutes ago, The Mighty Ash said:

Not everyone inspects games with the navel gazing ferocity of digital foundry. For the average gamer, its fine.

But we post on a games forum. We’re discerning gamers. Saying it’s fine for the uninformed doesn’t wash. I don’t play my retro consoles via composite with the image stretched to 16:9, so I’m going to care if emulation is substandard, as will many here.

 

(I suspect that the NSO Mega Drive games aren’t particularly well-emulated either, unfortunately, but the focus seems to be on the N64 games selection, for obvious reasons.) 

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35 minutes ago, spanky debrest said:

 

Absolutely 100% agree with this.

 

From my POV Nintendo have been so hell bent on short term shareholder appeasement in recent times that they've kinda lost the plot.

 

The N64 catches a lot of flack for having a small library of games that generally haven't aged too well, poor 3rd party support etc etc etc but 6-8 added frames of lag will decimate enjoyment of its best works. It's a shitty implementation being sold at a premium.

 

Clowns.

 

'decimate'  

 

behave.

 

My son is down stairs right now with his switch hooked up to a 100" 4K projector and playing OoT for the first time ever and he's loving it.

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7-8 frames of lag! 
116 - 132 ms!

 

Yikes! 

 

Although, this isn't nessesarily additional lag, as the original game will have it's own latency from button press to on-screen action. 

To get the real addition lag, he would need to get the lag results from a real N64 and CRT then subtract it. 

It's all a measurement of how the game-feel have been changed. 

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They should absolutely add in some button config options; that's a baffling omission, especially on controllers so different from the original system. Dunno why we can't hide the borders and UI stuff either.

 

Their insistence on delay-based netcode for online multiplayer is also disappointing. Considering the majority of Switch players will be on WiFi since you need an additional dongle for the original dock to use ethernet it's pretty much not worth bothering with (unless arranging with friends directly).

 

The games in the launch selection have all run better than I remember them, likely on account of sharper resolution and the US versions being faster than PAL. The only visual thing that sticks out for me is the rough edges of sprites/flat textured objects. I've not found the input latency to be an issue yet but I've not had massively long sessions on any of the games.

 

I know I'll get a few dozen hours of enjoyment from it but overall I'm disappointed since failing to nail some of the basic expectations (as Nintendo always insist on doing) means were unlikely to see and N64 games appearing with significant enhancements to frame rate, presentation or QoL features, and it's probably the console that needs that kind of attention the most.

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2 minutes ago, joffocakes said:

They should absolutely add in some button config options; that's a baffling omission, especially on controllers so different from the original system. Dunno why we can't hide the borders and UI stuff either.

 

Their insistence on delay-based netcode for online multiplayer is also disappointing. Considering the majority of Switch players will be on WiFi since you need an additional dongle for the original dock to use ethernet it's pretty much not worth bothering with.

 

The games in the launch selection have all run better than I remember them, likely on account of sharper resolution and the US versions being faster than PAL. The only visual thing that sticks out for me is the rough edges of sprites/flat textured objects. I've not found the input latency to be an issue yet but I've not had massively long sessions on any of the games yet.

 

I know I'll get a few dozen hours of enjoyment from it but overall I'm disappointed since failing to nail some of the basic expectations (as Nintendo always insist on doing) means were unlikely to see and N64 games appearing with significant enhancements to frame rate, presentation of QoL features, and it's probably the console that needs that kind of attention the most.

 

pretty much agree with this... F-Zero will be the big test.  I've never played that 60Hz... can't wait to see that running.

 

I'm impressed with how good Starfox looks considering.

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4 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

I did as a replacement for my flood affected N64 and games.

 

I'm pretty disappointed by this.

 

zelda-1280x720.jpg

 

The shot on the left, yeah it's blurry but atmospheric. The right? It looks like Link is going to go for a piss at the toilet block in the  local caravan park.

 

Nintendo needs to sort this. As a freebie I'd shrug my shoulders. As a "reward" for doubling the money I'm paying to them per year? Not on.


Wasn’t that fog thing debunked as a difference with the Japanese version?

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10 minutes ago, Sarlaccfood said:


Wasn’t that fog thing debunked as a difference with the Japanese version?

 

Nope that's the Dark Link room. The fog and the water reflection was always there - it's one of the things that made that encounter so atmospheric.

 

Edit: Unless you mean what we're seeing in the Switch screenshot is only an issue with the Japanese version? That would be peculiar.

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1 hour ago, The Mighty Ash said:

Not everyone inspects games with the navel gazing ferocity of digital foundry. For the average gamer, its fine.

 

Nintendo know full well that the target demographic (the average Switch user) won't notice or care about flaws that don't necessarily break the game.

 

Doing the bare minimum as cheaply as possible is  commercially sound in the short term but it's still shovelling mediocrity down users throats.

 

38 minutes ago, scottcr said:

 

'decimate'  

 

behave.

 

My son is down stairs right now with his switch hooked up to a 100" 4K projector and playing OoT for the first time ever and he's loving it.

 

OOT isn't exactly F-Zero X or Bangaioh or Goemon's Great Adventure though. 

 

But you're right. I'm only speaking for myself. *I* can't abide added input lag because it obliterates enjoyment of video games that I tend to prefer.

 

Anyway, I'm not here to undermine anyone's enjoyment of these easy-to-access N64 games. Go forth have fun.

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As someone who has played OOT and Mario 64 loads, mostly on original hardware, I had definitely gotten to a point where when I was replaying I’d just accepted that the controls were a bit shit and my memory of them was better than reality. Having played them recently on a friends fancy CRT hooked up to the original consoles I was amazed by how much better everything felt. The original releases control beautifully, it’s the emulation and ports that are making them feel a bit janky and I do think that’s a real shame. 

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On the general conversation regarding the ports and the price, I think we can feel that we wish more effort had been put into the releases but also keeping in perspective that the expansion pack, including N64, Mega Drive and Animal Crossing content is only £17 more (per year) than the standalone online service. 

 

So, I definitely wish it was better but if you already had Switch online it is not the biggest gaming outlay you'll ever face. 

 

I'm as bad as anyone for weighing up the pros and cons of spending that £17 which I occasionally have to put into perspective myself when I wander into Pret and spend £7 on a coffee and a sandwich. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, spanky debrest said:

But you're right. I'm only speaking for myself. *I* can't abide added input lag because it obliterates enjoyment of video games that I tend to prefer.

 

Is there a particular game from the launch batch you've found the input lag to be particularly bad in? I've heard that it varies game-to-game.

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17 minutes ago, McCoy said:

On the general conversation regarding the ports and the price, I think we can feel that we wish more effort had been put into the releases but also keeping in perspective that the expansion pack, including N64, Mega Drive and Animal Crossing content is only £17 more (per year) than the standalone online service. 

 

So, I definitely wish it was better but if you already had Switch online it is not the biggest gaming outlay you'll ever face. 

 

I'm as bad as anyone for weighing up the pros and cons of spending that £17 which I occasionally have to put into perspective myself when I wander into Pret and spend £7 on a coffee and a sandwich. 

 

 

I don't think its necessarily the price TBH. Its the fact they are doing their legacy games a dis-service by having sub-par experiences. 

 

If I was going to be playing some old games I'd hope Nintendo cared about them enough to actually enhance the games visually to bring them more to todays standards (or a least better than they were on the original hardware perhaps?). Shame its a missed opportunity really and Nintendo not really caring too much about showing off their legacy games running at their best. It's their heritage dammit! :) At a time when old games are running enhanced on new hardware and the community are making better efforts at enhancing the old games for newer hardware just a bit poor on Nintendo's part IMHO. I mean they did great jobs porting the old NES Mario games onto the SNES back in the day (Mario All Stars) - granted the hardware was less complicated etc but they still did a great job. 

 

However saying all that. At least they have ported them to a newer Nintendo platform and they are easily accessible. So there is that. 

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12 minutes ago, MattyP said:

I don't think its necessarily the price TBH. Its the fact they are doing their legacy games a dis-service by having sub-par experiences. 

 

If I was going to be playing some old games I'd hope Nintendo cared about them enough to actually enhance the games visually to bring them more to todays standards (or a least better than they were on the original hardware perhaps?). Shame its a missed opportunity really and Nintendo not really caring too much about showing off their legacy games running at their best. It's their heritage dammit! :) At a time when old games are running enhanced on new hardware and the community are making better efforts at enhancing the old games for newer hardware just a bit poor on Nintendo's part IMHO.

 

Yeah.  I agree with that. 

 

Nintendo drives me up the wall most of the time. The remastered OOT and Star Fox no where to be seen. Simple border options and control customisations non-existent. A drip feed of N64 games, a decade after they were drip fed onto the Wii VC service. No sign of Gamecube games, GBA games or similar. No sign and quite possibly little prospect of the quirkier N64 games ever making an appearance. A developed track editor mode for F-Zero X which they have still never bothered into incorporate into any western re-release. 

 

It is a shit show. But equally, it is a shit show costing me only £17 per year. Last month I spent £50 on Deathloop and still haven't started it yet. On that basis, the hour I spent on Star Fox last night is still proving better value for money. 

 

Being a Nintendo fan is basically the gamer version of Stockholm Syndrome really. 

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7 minutes ago, McCoy said:

Last month I spent £50 on Deathloop and still haven't started it yet.

You are my brother! I played about 3 hours, which I did enjoy, but then moved on to whatever-the-hell-else-I-decided-to-play-instead. 

 

Take comfort in the fact you're not alone, and it's probably more than just Nintendo doing it to you.

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12 minutes ago, McCoy said:

It is a shit show. But equally, it is a shit show costing me £17. Last month I spent £50 on Deathloop and still haven't started it yet. On that basis, the hour I spent on Star Fox last night is still proving better value for money. 

Indeed guess this is the point. People probably wouldn't be prepared to pay for complete remasters. Or perhaps Nintendo don't have the resources/inclination to completely remaster their old games. Who knows. But yeah £17 can't really grumble at that and if you have no basis of comparison to the original games you wont really care.

 

Think this is the thing with Nintendo they rely a bit on new blood into the systems all the time - so for a lot of gamers a Nintendo Switch might be the first console ever so everything is effectively new. Whereas the older gamers :blah: have seen it all before (and more than likely bought the content a few times before!).

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