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lordcookie

"What a time to be alive"

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Your problem is expecting to be inspired by tentpole cinema.

I live in a city, with several great arts cinemas. Film is thriving, and I don't really give a toss about Hollywood.

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Your problem is expecting to be inspired by tentpole cinema.

I think that is a bit of a cop out. Whilst it has always been true that the most exciting cinema has been outside of the blockbuster there are plenty of examples of excellent tentpole movies. I don't really see why you can't enjoy and find inspiration in both types of film.

Yeah sorry cookie but that's nonsense. You could say exactly the same thing about television over the last five years "Oh God look at it, it's all just Made in Chelsea, The Only Way is Essex and Mrs Browns Boys." When Breaking Bad, Mad Men and a whole host of other shows have been making TV one of the more important and exciting media platforms out there.

The analogy doesn't really work when the likes of Made in Chelsea have always been bad. As I state in my opening post I do generally enjoy a good blockbuster. I know better than most that I can find films that interest me elsewhere but I used to enjoy splitting my time between independent cinema and the studio-driven tentpole pictures. I look at the scheduling slate for the next 18-months and I see very few big movies of interest (for me).

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"Tentpole" cinema is tentpole for a reason. It props up the tent and allows all the other films to live below it.

I tend to skip all the tentpole films now, like yourself they are just rehashes of what's worked before. You can't blame them for not taking a chance, because these films cost a shit load of money. No-one wants another Jon Carter. However everyone wants another Batman. Studios I mean.

I very rarely see a film in the cinema now, and if I do I tend to leave it until it's a few weeks in, and go during a weekday when it's quiet as I hate watching films with a big audience on their phones or chatting, etc.

There's plenty of good small stuff coming out though, I'm going to see White God at Cameo's Discover Tuesdays tomorrow night. As long as films like this still get made I'm quite happy.

Star Wars has long been dead for me though - they were fun when I was a child, and I get a buzz of nostalgia rewatching the original series. Now Disney are going to kick a film out every year until people get bored and stop watching them. The prequels ruined anything "special" about Star Wars for me, now they are just big budget sci-fi kids films to me... however I'm still sure I'll watch the new one, but CGI must fucking die. Just no way as cool looking as models.


I'm tired of the tidal wave of superhero movies, that bubble is surely getting ready to burst.

The only way that will happen is if people stop going to see them in vast numbers. I just can't see that happening for the next 5 years or so.

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I think one of the major problems with disappointing tentpole movies is not the films themselves, but the marketing, the publicity, and the sheer amount of information available for moviegoers to gorge on before they set foot in a cinema. The big films send the hype-train out on the tracks years in advance, and there are large numbers of people waiting to jump aboard - watching every trailer, and reading all the scraps of information (both official, and those derived from leaks and "analysis" of whatever hits the internet) - and I think it's a perfect recipe for disappointment as it builds hype to unsustainable levels and reveals so much about the films in question that any surprise is lost. It's the cinematic equivalent of peeking under the wrapping paper of all your surprise presents and then finding that Christmas day wasn't as much fun as before.

I have a feeling that a lot of over-eager Star Wars fans will enjoy The Force Awakens to a lesser extent by gobbling up all the speculation and publicity than they will if they just avoid the hype and go in cold.

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I kind of agree you with LC. My big problem is the superhero part of it. They've dominated comics for decades. Now they've successfully moved to films in a way that they'd never managed before, thanks to Marvel (and it's genuinely smart policy of hiring interesting directors and writers to handle their products)- but we're seeing that huge slate of superhero films coming up.

And it's moving to TV as well- The Flash, Arrow, Gotham, Daredevil, Defenders, Agents of Shield, Luke Cage, Supergirl, Iron Fist and that's just off the top of my head- and I guess on a personal level I worry about how much budget and screen time the genre is going to eat up. Short term it's quite good fun, but long term it worries me that it'll lead to an increased blockbuster mentality, where studios and networks will be less inclined to gamble on the weird stuff.

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I look at the scheduling slate for the next 18-months and I see very few big movies of interest (for me).

and that's the crux of it really. You're not interested in them, doesn't mean they're not good films. It seems like you don't like the Marvel franchise but those are consistently excellent films and despite all taking place in the same universe we have had very different films. I mean we got an excellent Shane Black helmed Iron Man film that had a wildly different tone to Branagh's Thor or Gunn's Guardians of the Galaxy. So despite your apparent apathy towards them I feel it is unfair to lump them all together, especially considering that they are consistently performing.

Also Fast & Furious says high in terms of fun, well directed blockbusters.

Cinema is pretty great at the moment and is covering a wider spectrum than ever before. The future looks pretty damn bright as far as I'm concerned. Although I would like a few more Marvel movies, two a year is not enough for me.

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I've long stopped watching trailer and reading reviews. Same for games. Give far too much away. I watch enough and play enough to know the kind of things I like and dislike, and normally go by directors or word of mouth or podcasts for unknown stuff.

IMO Marvel are totally diluting their brand with too many films and TV shows, and I feel they should space out things more to avoid audience fatigue, but it really doesn't look like that's kicking in yet. I feel like Disney are going to rinse SW and create fatigue with that brand too.

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I kind of agree you with LC. My big problem is the superhero part of it. They've dominated comics for decades. Now they've successfully moved to films in a way that they'd never managed before, thanks to Marvel (and it's genuinely smart policy of hiring interesting directors and writers to handle their products)- but we're seeing that huge slate of superhero films coming up.

And it's moving to TV as well- The Flash, Arrow, Gotham, Daredevil, Defenders, Agents of Shield, Luke Cage, Supergirl, Iron Fist and that's just off the top of my head- and I guess on a personal level I worry about how much budget and screen time the genre is going to eat up. Short term it's quite good fun, but long term it worries me that it'll lead to an increased blockbuster mentality, where studios and networks will be less inclined to gamble on the weird stuff.

People will get bored of superhero stuff though. Once the overabundance kicks in, audience apathy and declining revenues will take hold sooner or later and some new flavour of the month will arise. In the same way that all the studios wanted a piece of Warners' Harry Potter cake and launched their own young-adult fantasy adapations - most of which did little to ape the success of Potter.

It reminds me of something Mark Gatiss said in an interview (it was one of Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre podcasts). To paraphrase, he said that, during the 80s and 90s there was such a dearth of fantasy / sci-fi / horror TV that he would grasp it wherever he could find it. Nowadays however, it's everywhere, and rather than being happy about the fact, he now finds that he simply can't be bothered with much of it.

EDIT: It's here:

https://youtu.be/aa6qp7QqvcE?t=28m39s

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People will get bored of superhero stuff though. Once the overabundance kicks in, audience apathy and declining revenues will take hold sooner or later and some new flavour of the month will arise. In the same way that all the studios wanted a piece of Warners' Harry Potter cake and launched their own young-adult fantasy adapations - most of which did little to ape the success of Potter.

Speaking of Harry Potter, I think that of the big tentpole franchise sequels coming out over the next few years (Marvel, Avatar, Star Wars, etc) Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is one of the most likely to underperform. I doubt it'll bomb, but I don't think it'll be anywhere near as successful as any of the main Harry Potter films.

I think that as much as people appreciated the side-characters and details and world-building of the Harry Potter books and films, most people were primarily interested in finding out how the stories of the main characters would turn out, and in the novelty of having such a long series of films with the same cast.

Even with JK Rowling co-writing the screenplay, I wonder how a new story that shares the same setting as Hogwarts and Quidditch, but lacks the overarching Harry vs Voldemort storyline, will be received. Of course the really dedicated fans will always be interested in it - but they're only a subset of those who read the books and watched the films.

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No one sane could dispute there really is way too much comic book stuff out there at the present, it's everywhere seemingly for years to come. That said, I can't help but feel there's an element of some of you being Miserable Old Men in rose tinted specs moaning at those darn kids to get off their lawn. The great/okay/garbage and original production v series/'franchises' ratio really hasn't changed much at all over the years, y'all are just some jaded motherfuckers.

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I thought there was way too much comic book stuff out a decade ago, personally. I remember Vems having a pop at me for saying so on this very forum.

But I agree in part with what Red says - it's also partly your age and experience starting to overwhelm your optimism, LC - allied to what I'd say is an almost inevitable decline in the creativity of the art form. I do think the great forms of popular artistic expression - and I include 'entertainment' in that - tend to have developing phases, experimental phases, golden periods, and stagnation. I think we've been well into the self-referential/stagnant period for a good number of years now. And I include 'art house' / indie films in that as well as popular blockbuster types - I've been massively unimpressed by many of the critics' (and this forum's) recent darlings. There are always some films that buck the trend (remember Schenectady? Wow), but that trend's been evident for many years. So there's that, plus by the time you get to my age (or your age, LC, when you watch the volume of stuff you do), you can't help but feel 'seen the film this is cribbing from, and the original was better, as well as being exhilaratingly fresh' when you see almost anything - even the good stuff.

Mind, you can safely ignore me as I feel essentially the same way about popular music and the novel. They're past it; their vitality is largely gone. But it's not all lost. Video games, LC - get back into them. Maybe when they finally break out of trying to ape other forms so closely they'll hit their own golden age. I still think there'll be a lot of room there for improvement when they finally find their feet (and there are signs that some have already started to). Whereas I'm staring to feel that just about all of the great, groundbreaking, new and profound films/popular music's basically been created, and all people do now is decide which past influences to mix-and-match from, at best, and totally rip off/slavishly copy at worst.

So yeah, ignore me. I'm an increasingly irrelevant curmudgeon - part of the problem. Oh for the days when my curmudgeonliness used to be new, relevant and exciting.

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Did anyone listen to that three-part radio series "The Business of Film" that Mark Kermode did a couple of months ago? Still on iPlayer, and it's worth a listen on this subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0536932

Perhaps the studio most guilty of promoting this dearth in creativity is Disney. Having spent a small fortune on buying the likes of Marvel and Lucasfilms they are now obsessed in wringing every last cent from their investments. Their biggest franchises are now receiving biannual updates whilst they also reimagine their classic animated films into bland live-action commodities. Disney has always been a movie-making machine but the rate they churn them out now is quite mind-boggling - no wonder most fit such a rigid and obvious template.

Disney were extremely canny in buying Marvel and Lucasfllm. It's given them a stream of blockbuster and merchandise income that, at the moment, seems every bit as reliable as what they get from princesses, animated classics, theme parks and TV networks. They now have fingers in pies for every stage of childhood and adolescence (plus childish adults who refuse to put away childish things ;)).

Superhero film and TV fatigue has got to be an issue before long. I love the genre, but even I didn't see either of Marc Webb's Amazing Spider-Man films at the cinema. (And I still haven't watched the second one.) To a fan's eye there are plenty of distinctive differences in style and quality between the comics adaptations that have been made by Nolan/Snyder/Whedon/Raimi/del Toro/Black, but there's still plenty more that could be done to differentiate them. I loved The Winter Soldier, but it's not really that much of the subversive political thriller that it's made out to be. And even I feel myself zoning out when it comes to another climactic action sequence involving big ships hovering over a big city, with lots of smaller cannon fodder ship particles zipping round them. Such special effects showcases begin to feel a bit samey, even when the character interactions and comedy within that framework are as pitch-perfect as they are in Avengers.

The superhero film boom will end at some point. When it will happen, I don't know: back in 2010 I wondered if The Avengers would mark the end! But I don't think it'll be an abrupt, catastrophic crash. I occasionally see people online pointing out that relatively few films flop unexpectedly these days, compared to previous decades. The greenlighting of films is done so safely, the production and marketing are managed so efficiently, that every blockbuster is probably going to make money. Even when something like John Carter or Mars Needs Moms comes along, we hear plenty of negative buzz well in advance of its release - to the extent that it almost seems like the studio wants it to fail. Something going over-budget and then flopping on the scale of Heaven's Gate is not very likely today.

So sudden surprise flops are a rare thing these days. To have an entire genre of them have disappointing box office in quick succession, so that the studios all lose confidence in them, seems really unlikely to me.

I think it's more likely that the studios will gradually transition into using another genre for their tentpole special effects demonstrations. Whatever that happens to be, it'll probably still be based around brands that people will recognise from childhood nostalgia. (Video game adaptations maybe?)

... which is why Marvel and Kevin Feige have been playing up how Marvel Studios have properties that cover many genres that aren't necessarily what we usually think of as superheroes. They have SHIELD if they want to shift the emphasis to spy stories, Doctor Strange if magical fantasy becomes the next big thing. Loads of alien races that could turn up in GOTG or another space opera. If there's a western revival... well I admit that the Rawhide Kid is the only Western character I've heard of from Marvel. And I think we're all looking forward to Hawkeye! The Musical (2022), aren't we? (And if they want to do a satirical fish-out-of-water buddy comedy there's always Howard the Duck...)

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Deciding whether a certain period of time is "good for movies" is a bit of a fool's errand when none of the movies have actually come out yet. Did anyone watch the trailers for The Lego Movie, Edge of Tomorrow, Paddington, or Guardians of the Galaxy and think "yep, 2014's looking good"?

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Deciding whether a certain period of time is "good for movies" is a bit of a fool's errand when none of the movies have actually come out yet. Did anyone watch the trailers for The Lego Movie, Edge of Tomorrow, Paddington, or Guardians of the Galaxy and think "yep, 2014's looking good"?

Yes, it's pretty much said every year, by fans of specific genre movies. That's pretty much part of the problem. The early hype.

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I'm tired of the tidal wave of superhero movies, that bubble is surely getting ready to burst.

It is pretty amazing that not only has the bubble burst not burst but that it grows year on year. Now with TV getting in on the act you do have to wonder if fatigue will set in quicker.

I tend to skip all the tentpole films now, like yourself they are just rehashes of what's worked before. You can't blame them for not taking a chance, because these films cost a shit load of money. No-one wants another Jon Carter. However everyone wants another Batman. Studios I mean.

Studio conservatism is certainly nothing new but we've not quite experienced a period of saturation as this with the likes of Marvel, DC and Star Wars universes receiving two instalments a year.

I have a feeling that a lot of over-eager Star Wars fans will enjoy The Force Awakens to a lesser extent by gobbling up all the speculation and publicity than they will if they just avoid the hype and go in cold.

I'm sure that will be the case, and I do agree with your wider point about marketing fatigue.

...long term it worries me that it'll lead to an increased blockbuster mentality, where studios and networks will be less inclined to gamble on the weird stuff.

It's not so much that they won't gamble on the weird stuff it is the fact it appears they will only be gambling on the same stuff. It is as if all the studios have their eggs in the same basket - what happens if and when the audience gets bored?

and that's the crux of it really. You're not interested in them, doesn't mean they're not good films. It seems like you don't like the Marvel franchise but those are consistently excellent films and despite all taking place in the same universe we have had very different films. I mean we got an excellent Shane Black helmed Iron Man film that had a wildly different tone to Branagh's Thor or Gunn's Guardians of the Galaxy. So despite your apparent apathy towards them I feel it is unfair to lump them all together, especially considering that they are consistently performing.

Although it may discredit my OP I have actually enjoyed a third of Marvel's output. I grew up with their comic books so to see something like The Avengers on screen was fun and a novelty. But that enjoyment and excitement diminishes by the time we get to Thor 4 or yet another reboot of Spider-Man. Even if the quality remains consistent the sheer abundance of similar films must surely dilute the appeal, even for fans (I'm sure we are getting close to the point during the summer months that we will see a new superhero film a week).

Similarly, I understand the appeal of more Star Wars movies. If it was just the final trilogy in the saga I would be much more positive about it but we're going to be fed Star Wars until the audience is as sick of it as they were with Lucas' prequels. I hope I'm proven wrong but the spin-off movies are going to continue to shrink the SW universe until every character has bumped into C3PO or got into a fight with Han Solo. It is a bit like Prometheus demystifying/ruining the Space Jockeys - every last mystery and 'what if' is going to be milked. Remember how exciting the Clone Wars sounded in A New Hope? The reality was quite different.

No one sane could dispute there really is way too much comic book stuff out there at the present, it's everywhere seemingly for years to come. That said, I can't help but feel there's an element of some of you being Miserable Old Men in rose tinted specs moaning at those darn kids to get off their lawn. The great/okay/garbage and original production v series/'franchises' ratio really hasn't changed much at all over the years, y'all are just some jaded motherfuckers.

You're right the good-bad ratio hasn't changed. If anything the studios are probably more consistent at producing passable movies but the homogenisation of the types of blockbusters has increased.

So yeah, ignore me. I'm an increasingly irrelevant curmudgeon - part of the problem. Oh for the days when my curmudgeonliness used to be new, relevant and exciting.

I'm sure age and experience certainly play their part in being underwhelmed by the future crop of movies available (even if they are directly appealing to my age group). I still don't think a little bit of diversity is too much to ask for though. Take Edge of Tomorrow as an example - its influences are obvious but it was a great action blockbuster that felt like a real breath of fresh air last summer even if it did fail to find an audience. Surely a summer that doesn't rely just on superheroes and nostalgia is better for everyone, even for those that enjoy the former.

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Your problem is expecting to be inspired by tentpole cinema.

I live in a city, with several great arts cinemas. Film is thriving, and I don't really give a toss about Hollywood.

out of interest which ones? Bristol has the "watershed" and that hole "the cube" as far as I am aware - I'm obviously missing several great ones.

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... which is why Marvel and Kevin Feige have been playing up how Marvel Studios have properties that cover many genres that aren't necessarily what we usually think of as superheroes. They have SHIELD if they want to shift the emphasis to spy stories, Doctor Strange if magical fantasy becomes the next big thing. Loads of alien races that could turn up in GOTG or another space opera. If there's a western revival... well I admit that the Rawhide Kid is the only Western character I've heard of from Marvel. And I think we're all looking forward to Hawkeye! The Musical (2022), aren't we? (And if they want to do a satirical fish-out-of-water buddy comedy there's always Howard the Duck...)

Even with the differences of the Marvel properties there is still the demand for them to fit within the same story universe meaning that whilst the genres are ever so slightly different the actual templates remain quite similar. Hopefully when these franchises began to stand on their own two feet we might see more differentiation between them.

Deciding whether a certain period of time is "good for movies" is a bit of a fool's errand when none of the movies have actually come out yet. Did anyone watch the trailers for The Lego Movie, Edge of Tomorrow, Paddington, or Guardians of the Galaxy and think "yep, 2014's looking good"?

In my opening post I say that I'm sure some will still be good, even maybe the ones I am directly criticising. I am really trying to discuss the ongoing direction of the blockbuster and its general 'sameyness'. We are in a strange position where we know the major releases from the big studios for nearly the next 4-5 years so we can at least see the current trend is only set to increase.

Part of my problem with the upcoming slate of blockbusters is that any interesting genre-ish film made by an upcoming filmmaker is now seen as an audition for directing one of the existing big franchises. Rather than being an interesting piece of work in its own right and a way for the filmmaker to develop their voice and style in making their own films, these films are more like job interviews – a way of demonstrating that you can take on the house style, and effectively oversee a $200m project.

It is an interesting point and I wonder if one of the overriding factors in it is in the demise of the mid-budget Hollywood movie. If these filmmakers are wanting to grow and tackle bigger projects the only way is for them to jump straight into the blockbuster chair.

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I think I hit this point last year when Marvel unveiled their entire line-up up to 2019. A lot of films on the slate sound good and interesting, but at the same time I feel quite a bit of fatigue when looking at most of the stuff they unveiled. I'll watch it, but i'm not as actively interested as I once was.

With superhero movies I can more or less live with the situation as is though. Most of those are going to be produced by either Marvel of Warner Bros and at least one of those has a stellar track record of keeping me entertained. For me the fact that now everything needs to have a 'Cinematic Universe' is what's so maddening. I could do without seeing Star Wars so milked to death.

Still, with the way things are going it's going to be hard to make it all last. Which is why i'm looking forward to when the whole thing comes crashing down.

I do think the great forms of popular artistic expression - and I include 'entertainment' in that - tend to have developing phases, experimental phases, golden periods, and stagnation. I think we've been well into the self-referential/stagnant period for a good number of years now.

Considering how art has a tendency to change with its times, wouldn't that mean that there's also the possibility for a rebound in film, music and novels though? Perhaps the dearth of creativity on the arts has more to do with some of the rot that's settled into western culture in general.

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out of interest which ones? Bristol has the "watershed" and that hole "the cube" as far as I am aware - I'm obviously missing several great ones.

The Watershed is excellent. The Cube is not a 'hole', it's also excellent. Then there is the Arnolfini, which is excellent.

That's three, but even if you only used the Watershed that's more arts cinema than anyone is going to watch, unless you are going all day every day.

There's also The Arts House on Stokes Croft which I've never been to personally, but has a good rep.

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Similarly, I understand the appeal of more Star Wars movies. If it was just the final trilogy in the saga I would be much more positive about it but we're going to be fed Star Wars until the audience is as sick of it as they were with Lucas' prequels. I hope I'm proven wrong but the spin-off movies are going to continue to shrink the SW universe until every character has bumped into C3PO or got into a fight with Han Solo. It is a bit like Prometheus demystifying/ruining the Space Jockeys - every last mystery and 'what if' is going to be milked. Remember how exciting the Clone Wars sounded in A New Hope? The reality was quite different.

I've been a bit surprised at how positively the announcement of Rogue One's plot synopsis has been received, given that one of the many common complaints about the prequels was the way that they shrunk the universe by returning to old concepts, and filled in the blanks of things that were best left to the imagination.

I realise that just because the subject matter is familiar, that doesn't mean that there's no room for the movie to differentiate itself from any of the previous Star Wars movies. (Perhaps it could be the series' first heist/caper story?) But I'm a bit surprised to see so few people jumping on it for - from the little we've heard about it so far - doing what the prequels did and going back to tell a story that there's no real need to tell.

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I have a passion and a huge knowledge of film, I will watch small independent movies and I adore the big Hollywood blockbusters. I get excited for the new Fast and Furious and Marvel movies because I know what to expect and I will enjoy them on certain levels.

I am also on the side that there are too many remakes and in a few years the market will be saturated with comic book movies. I may enjoy some of these movies, we don't get original blockbuster films anymore.

You can bash Christopher Nolan but he is the only director right now given the money and creative licence to make these type of films. When I see Inception and Interstellar, while those films may have faults and the latter does divide people, I rejoice in the ambition. I wish for more original blockbusters being made.

Sadly now the blockbuster films will be comic book movies, remakes or sequels to old franchises. While some of these films might be amazing, a lot will be forgettable.

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You're right the good-bad ratio hasn't changed. If anything the studios are probably more consistent at producing passable movies but the homogenisation of the types of blockbusters has increased.

I think this is what bothers me the most about it all, especially with Marvel. I'm still of the opinion that Blade almost single-handedly revived the whole mesh of superheroes in film, and yet it's a film we may never see the likes of ever again, though Ghost Rider 2 was fairly wild all things considered. It seems like X-men 2 has retroactively become the archetype for everything that came much later; a clean style, lots of space for the biggest stars (Hugh Jackman), and continual teases and hints of future characters through cameos and sly references littered throughout.

The first couple of Marvel films were interesting in their diversity of styles, even if people get unreasonably mad at things like the first Captain America movie; It was often dismissed as an advert for Marvel's first Avengers film, but in some sort of ironic twist, the next Avengers film is taking its place as an advert for the next Captain America film.

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