Jump to content

Street Fighter V Champion Edition


joffocakes
 Share

Recommended Posts

Oh bison was it? Yes ggs! I thought you had me in the last game!

 

I was actually just coming here to ask if anyone would kindly educate me on where the gaps are in bison's pressure. Any and all advice much welcomed :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think EX legs is -2 or something, by the way, so I'm safe against your super on block but I pushed a button. In that situation I guess a better Chun might have thought about the risk and given up their turn by blocking after the EX legs didn't hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, alistarr said:

Oh bison was it? Yes ggs! I thought you had me in the last game!

 

I was actually just coming here to ask if anyone would kindly educate me on where the gaps are in bison's pressure. Any and all advice much welcomed :-)

 

I saw a video the other day, basically all of his normals are plus on block.  About the only safe time to retaliate is after non-ex scissors.  I hate it. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All jabs are + 3, all shorts are +2. 

 

Standing roundhouse is +3, standing MP is +2. 

 

Down-towards fierce (the big long range overhand swipe move) is +1 

 

Ex scissor kick is +1 on block. This move was extremely punishable in sf4 so it's a big change to keep in mind. 

 

So yeah, lots of plus frames. 

 

The fraudulent stuff is:

 

Crouching MP - This is 0 on block but you'll see Bisons sneaking it in there as part of their pressure. He doesn't have any 3f normals, so if you do he might as well be negative after this move. Keep an eye out for it. 

 

Standing HP: This is -6 but is easily missed and can be confused for down-towards fierce. Make sure you can distinguish between the two and punish this if you see it without a cancel. 

 

LK scissors is -4. The spacing means it's situational punish-wise but it is most definitely the end of his pressure. 

 

The he main gaps though, are the points at which he has to do something slightly fraudulent or risky to keep his pressure going. His walk speed is appalling, so if you've blocked some buttons and been pushed back, he'll usually close the gap with scissors (negative without meter) a dash (you can challenge this) or chase you down with down towards fierce. The latter has 16f(!!) start up, so if it's not meaty there is no amount of frame advantage he can apply that makes this cover the gap. It's a scary move to challenge and you shouldn't if he's got it set up, but I've seen bisons to standing Hk (blocked) then down towards percent to get back in. The roundhouse is really plus and you can feel the block stun on it, but following up with a 16f button is still massively taking the piss and should not be tolerated. 

 

Keep  an eye out for that sort of piss-takery generally. Down towards fierce is +1, respect it a bit but not *too* much when you've got 3f normals as good as Chun's. 

 

Also strings ending in psycho inferno are punishable at worst and the end of his pressure at best. He has specific dirty set ups to make it positive, but normal xx inferno is typically negative and again further buttons should not be allowed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's exposed most of my play! It's unintentionally bad though.

 

Apologies for that then alistarr. I've definitely found my level at the top of silver. Straying into super several times gets me found out quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something that led to me having success against bison (admittedly at my terrible level) was remembering that he doesn't have an overhead so letting him abuse his frame advantage on block while pushing himself out of range and reacting to throw attempts helped me out a lot. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah, patience is important against Bison. He *could* throw you six times in a row, but he'd be much happier if you panicked and got hit by a couple of frame traps so he could kill you in two reads instead. As well as sparing yourself the frame traps, having a willingness to sit and wait for (or even take) the throws also helps you practise the valuable skill of paying attention to what it is you're blocking, which buttons this particular Bison uses and any patterns he falls into whilst applying his pressure.

 

The problem I've had with Bisons is that deer in the headlights thing that happens as soon as you block a standing heavy kick. What you ideally want to do is have a gameplan for when he gets in. Don't assume you can keep him out and then descend into panic when he gets on top of you. It is literally the only thing the characters does, so expect that it will happen during the fight. Sometimes as an exercise it might be worth saying "I'm not going to tech for this entire sequence and just see what he does."  The last couple of times I've fought good Bisons, there have been times where I've seen a crouching MP on block, for instance, and just hit tech in a panic instead of taking control with a 3f jab because I was in "ohmygodI'mgonnagetgrabbedwhenisthegrabwhenisthegrab" mode instead of paying attention to what he's actually doing.

 

"Easier said than done" is an understatement for the above as I get the Bison fear like everyone else, but something to think about.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, D.C. said:

Apologies for that then alistarr. 

 

Never apologise! Especially if it worked. You don't see me apologising for waking up with EX SBK. And for good reason!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally back home, guess I should write about hypespotting things some.

 

First of all hyoooooge thanks to Joffo for putting me up and being a generally splendid man, and Jellum for being great company. We completely forgot to play Alexcellent adventures!

 

I went 2-2 this year, which is a vast improvement from last years 0-2 shambles.

 

Once again I got lined up against a player who one of my friends from Ulster knows, once again I lost in a close match. Picking Vega into a mirror match was definitely an error, but I super wasn't ready for having all the shenangins I know used against me. A complete failure to punish many, many neutral jumps is something I seriously need to work on.

 

First losers match was against a not great Ryu, over my nerves and ran every single Laura trick I could think of for an easy 2-0.

 

Second losers match against a much better Ryu, luckily I didn't do anything too silly, and even playing nervously, realised they literally never attempted a throw. Managed to bait a couple of DPs out and for once remembered the character specific max damage punishes, phew!

 

Last match I got to play was against Brick, who I found out later is a very high platinum rank. I'd seen him narrowly lose to Bigfool earlier, and din't fancy my chances. Its a grim matchup for Laura at best, managed to win a round and came close in another, but mostly got mauled. Running bear grab gimmicks aren't gimmicks if you Never remember to jump in reaction, ahem.

 

Once again it was an awesome event, and since everyone I knew got knocked out before top 8, we had a nice, relaxing, drunken time heckling the big screen on the Sunday. I'd seriously recommend anyone interested in a big tournament to come next year if you can, it's super welcoming and fun.

Finally back home, guess I should write about hypespotting things some.

 

First of all hyoooooge thanks to Joffo for putting me up and being a generally splendid man, and Jellum for being great company. We completely forgot to play Alexcellent adventures!

 

I went 2-2 this year, which is a vast improvement from last years 0-2 shambles.

 

Once again I got lined up against a player who one of my friends from Ulster knows, once again I lost in a close match. Picking Vega into a mirror match was definitely an error, but I super wasn't ready for having all the shenangins I know used against me. A complete failure to punish many, many neutral jumps is something I seriously need to work on.

 

First losers match was against a not great Ryu, over my nerves and ran every single Laura trick I could think of for an easy 2-0.

 

Second losers match against a much better Ryu, luckily I didn't do anything too silly, and even playing nervously, realised they literally never attempted a throw. Managed to bait a couple of DPs out and for once remembered the character specific max damage punishes, phew!

 

Last match I got to play was against Brick, who I found out later is a very high platinum rank. I'd seen him narrowly lose to Bigfool earlier, and din't fancy my chances. Its a grim matchup for Laura at best, managed to win a round and came close in another, but mostly got mauled. Running bear grab gimmicks aren't gimmicks if you Never remember to jump in reaction, ahem.

 

Once again it was an awesome event, and since everyone I knew got knocked out before top 8, we had a nice, relaxing, drunken time heckling the big screen on the Sunday. I'd seriously recommend anyone interested in a big tournament to come next year if you can, it's super welcoming and fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, D.C. said:

Do you feel he is one of the stronger characters, JLM? I know it's early to call.

 

I think its hard to say. He's very vulnerable if you can get inside his huge scary buttons, his jab is 4 frames and no reversal outside super is a liability.

1 hour ago, D.C. said:

Do you feel he is one of the stronger characters, JLM? I know it's early to call.

 

I think its hard to say. He's very vulnerable if you can get inside his huge scary buttons, his jab is 4 frames and no reversal outside super is a liability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, D.C. said:

I don't know what is fraudulent and what's not though.

 

I am fraudulent.

 

Dood I am considering reconsidering my advice to use st.MP as your preferred meaty attack because from my matches today it would appear to be impossible to time it correctly online. To borrow the immortal refrain, I can do it in training mode just fine! But online I eat all the grabs.

 

Had a great time EX snake striking (air to air j.MP xx EX legs) imp's day one Karin today, who was looking distinctly day two by the end of the session. Also got murdered in ranked. I need to get on those replays and figure out what the tings are so I can try and figure out what to do about the tings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh man, those were some fine sets we ran today! I feel like I was doing really well for a while, but then I read a bunch of stuff about karin over lunch, and when we fought again I was so mentally consumed by trying to confirm into her launcher on hit, or her shoulder on block as a safe pressure ender that I was dropping so many more combos, and failing so many more anti-airs, despite having a safer ground game. I'm absolutely loving Karin though (sorry choo) I think she's almost certainly my new main pocket chicken.

Dood, fraudulence is getting away with a situation or setup that mathematically you shouldn't be allowed to, but the opponent is unaware or unable to stop you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fraudulent is me getting away with blocked Vega rolls online. Such a bad habit that I need to shake.

 

Any advice on Necalli (especially specific advice for Vega's options) would be most appreciated. Attended some locals on the weekend and had real trouble dealing with Bison (which has been addressed by JLM's excellent post) and Necalli. He hits so very hard. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, "fraudulent" refers to anything a player or character does that they shouldn't be getting away with. 

 

"Pressure" that is actually negative, moves that are punishable but difficult to punish so people mistakenly think they're safe, characters who seem better than they are because people don't know their weird properties/frames. 

 

It's used to describe players as well but that's often out of sheer saltiness. "He's a fraud, he only wins because his character is cheap/he had an easy match up/easy bracket" etc. You'll see grumpy Eventhubs commenters saying this about Luffy a lot. Their tears are delicious. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On that note, when peeps say 'shenanigans' and 'nonsense', what on earth are they talking about? I thought it was just 'Oh you!' rllmuk talk, but this kind of slang is appearing all over the internet and it's starting to annoy me for some reason I don't understand.

 

On the positive side, I picked up a Hori Fight Commander, the new one! Should up my game by about 0.02%.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luffy is a fraud, though - he only won Evo because he picked a character he thinks is really strong and put in a bunch of work to understand how the game works and get really really good at using his character. It's not like he is actually good because that's something different, for example Daigo is good because, for his Evo win, he picked a character he thought was really strong and put in a bunch of work to understand how the game works and get really really good at using his character.

 

PS Europe sucks and the US is almost as good as Asia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Shenanigans is just used as the word is intended. Used to describe tricks, gimmicks, dirty mix ups, hitting someone with a surprising tricky thing they might not have seen before or have to guess how to defend against as opposed to solid, textbook stuff. Stuff like that can be especially potent in short 2/3 sets as there is limited time to adapt and figure out what's going on. 

 

Luffy's bracket was a joke though.  He lost to Xian because he's a SCRUB and then only had to beat Tokido, Misse, Mago, Eita, Pugera, Momochi, Gackt, Snake Eyez, Fuudo and Bonchan to steal the tournament. He can't even get out of pools in SFV though because there's no invincible backdash. Oh he got second at Hypespotting? That's because he's using Mika and her invincible back dash scrubby mix ups.

 

Oh, and re: Bipson, i ended up writing a load of tings about the cast:

 

Bipson. As Spuck says he's a tough one to judge. He's good at what he does and is very potent when he gets to do it, but he definitely has exploitable weaknesses in his game as well. Poor anti-airs, no wake up without super and quite an obvious game plan that is hard to deal with but also not very versatile. On the plus side his throw/counter hit game is terriifying, he has big comeback potential with V-trigger (having that is a big departure from SFIV Bison, much like everything else about this BIson) and he has some decent tricks and gimmicks that you might not expect from him. I'd put him somewhere in the middle so far but I think I have most of the cast there as well! Problem X thinks Bison is very strong indeed and people are sleeping on the character. He just won a major with him, so I certainly wouldn't discount his opinion!

 

FANG I have low because he's like SFIV Dhalsim in that he has to do so much work to win a round and can lose it off one mistake. Amazing normals, good zoning and surprisingly good rushdown/mix ups/damage/stun when he gets going, but I always feel like it can all collapse in spectacular fashion at any moment and that is a big problem.

 

Rashid's damage and health are low and his mix ups, mobility and pressure aren't compensating for it enough right now, so I'd put him low down as well. The tricky thing about fixing that is I feel like it has to be that way to stop him completely shutting out Zangief, for instance, but against characters who don't have a problem getting in on him he gets out-muscled against pretty much the entire cast. Compare him to Cammy, who has the same health but better mid-range, a better throw/counter hit game, infinitely superior damage/stun and old Rashid seems a bit redundant. He has more options than her as he can zone, has more tricks and better mobility but it doesn't do enough at this stage. I think with both FANG and Rashid  it will take time and the efforts of dedicated character loyalists to show what they're really about, but in the early going they're a bit of a liability.

 

Zangief is suspect as well. Snake Eyez is the only player in the world making it work with Gief at high level. Tiers/match ups are said to be based on the idea of both characters being played at the highest level, so you can argue that Snake Eyez is proving that it can be done, but if you have to be as good as Snake Eyez for him to be tournament viable (and not even winning/making top 8, just competitive) then the character is clearly struggling at least a little.

 

Chun is high up because she is very complete. Great walk speed, 3f normals into solid confirms, strong ground game, better anti-airs than she's ever had before, an invincible reversal, a long-lasting and potent v-trigger, full screen zoning, strong up close pressure, a dive kick for some reason, a passable high/low game, a really good super. She is certainly not unbeatable (and indeed has not won a major yet) but she doesn't have many missing pieces.

 

Nash is looking strong but I think people saying he's comfortably the best in the game are not taking into account just how good Infiltration is. That said, the character again has quite a fleshed out range of options. Amazing long range game, strong mid-range, decent up close, good anti-airs, amazing mobility, a super that might be the best in the game, good confirms off lights, a versatile V-trigger that adds to the aforementioned mobility as well as allowing for tricks. He lacks wake up and 3f buttons but it's his ability to dominate at his preferred ranges and adjust the spacing to suit himself at will that makes him so good. Again though, I think Infiltration deserves much of the credit for being a spectacularly talented player as I don't see any other Nash looking even half as good as his.

 

Everyone else I struggle to place.

 

Karin's really good. She has the biggest array of fraudulent rubbish in the game but none of that is what makes her good so it doesn't matter, that stuff is just extra stuff you can sneak past people if used sparingly or abuse against people who don't know. What's actually good about her is her outstanding mid-range, very solid throw/counter hit game, 3f normals, her ability to land super all of the god damn time, a very solid V-trigger that only needs two bars and makes people spend V-reversal and surprisingly terrifying damage/stun output if you do the optimised stuff. She's also got a very handy V-skill in that it's easy to work into her gameplay and makes building V-trigger pretty easy for her.  She also has an invincible reversal for a bar, which is handy. She also has good comeback factor because if you have either V-trigger or Super you can make big tings happen off any crouching medium kick. It doesn't matter if you've spent one or the other as they both do the job. If you have both stocked she is deadly. Her main obvious weaknesses are suspect anti-air, no wake up without meter

 

Ryu's really good. Disgusting damage, most of the usual well-rounded shoto game you'd expect (though notably lacking his all-conquering crouching MK), he also has super pretty much every round and can land it off anything. Oh, and jumping LK is ridiculously good.

 

Necalli is good and becomes a huuuuge threat when in V-Trigger. Once he's transformed he's as good as any character in the game. The mobility in particular is insane and I defy anyone not to get hit by *something* once he's popped it. He has a DP, a command grab, massive damage and stun output, a super he lands very frequently, standing jab is one of the best light normals in the game, he's good at building V-gauge. His dive kick isn't amazing but it's still nice to have as an option against normal anti-airs and is effective if used sparingly. His main weakness is that he's slow and has stubby range, so he struggles with the ground game when he's not transformed. Standing roundhouse is a monstrous button and lands crush counters all day, but outside of that (which is quite a big commitment to throw out all the time) he isn't too great on the ground until he activates V-trigger, at which point the mobility he gets makes up for it.

 

Birdie's really good and can play effectively at all ranges. I don't think he does too well if he's being mauled by a strong throw/counter hit game but aside from that he doesn't lack much. Phenomenal anti-air in crouching MP,  frankly appalling damage when he's in V-trigger, excellent mid-range, decent mix-ups gimmicks, surprisingly good zoning for a big body character, decent answers against fireballs. Massive comeback factor, the ability to throw out mental stuff and make it safe thanks to V-trigger cancel, great corner carry on a lot of his stuff. Very strong character all round, and again the lack of ability to deal with up close pressure due to lack of 3f normals or mashable "get off me" moves is the only hole I see in his game. I think Cammy is the only character I've seen who might beat him convincingly so far. Aside from that I like his chances against the cast.

 

Ken is pretty good and has had strong results early on. Solid pressure, decent high/low game, some of the best confirms/juggles/cancel options in the game, good mobility on the ground, a dive kick, an invincible DP, 3f buttons, one of the most useful V-trigger cancels in the game. His fireballs suck but they're still a nice thing to have. He has surprisingly good full screen/zoning options as well. His main weakness as I see it is that he has to take risks and force the issue to get in in the mid-range as he is not great there at all. He either wants to be full screen waiting for you to do something stupid or right in your face. Anything in between he's not comfortable at all.

 

Dhalsim is strong but I think there is a whole lot of "people don't know" factor with him. People don't know how plus instant air gale is, people aren't used to him having Rufus divekick pressure like he had in Super Turbo, people aren't dealing with raw teleports, not realising that the ground in front of him is temporarily wide open when he throws a fireball now. The Dhalsim match up has always been a big gap in a lot of players' games, partly not knowing how to attack him (NEVER jump when he's cornered as he gets out for free, don't always go rabid when you get in on him, just keep him locked down and be ready to chase/punish the escape, accept when you've messed up and he's escaped because rushing like a madman to get your offense back once he's out of there is EXACTLY what he wants you to do). With SFV it's all of that plus you now have to know about his newly buffed offense and how to deal with that as well. He is much much stronger than he was in SFIV but his zoning/defensive game isn't as good as it used to be and his offense is *good* but for these first few months he is getting away with absolute murder. Where he actually falls in the rankings will become clearer over time.

 

Mika is a huge problem early on but this may balance out a bit over time when people get better at exposing her weak neutral game, Her up close and corner game is incredibly strong, and all of the changes Capcom made in beta to try and make getting in a massive problem for her seem entirely justified right now. It'll just take time for players to get used to shutting her out. I was really happy to see Brian consistently low profiling the dropkick  against Luffy at Hypespotting and hitting her with a full punish. It's things like that that will eventually make life a lot more difficult for her. I think her mix ups, damage and stun are potent enough that she will always be viable and dangerous but I think she might be over-achieving a little in these early tournaments.

 

Laura has better mid-range than you'd expect for a character of this type (Abel and Makoto didn't have crouching medium kicks, for instance) but does get out-footsied by the characters who really excel at that. Chun absolutely murders her on the ground and I think Nash and Karin are tough for her there as well. She's a good counter poker though, standing MK is amazing and standing roundhouse is really good (though also quite a commitment that people aren't dealing with very well just yet). V-skill also helps massively as you can adjust your mid-range spacing at speed. It creates the same mid-range situation as Makoto where buttons will shut her down but she can make you think twice about pressing them or bypass your mid-range by "whiff punishing" your pokes with dashes and getting in your face. She has good anti-airs at the right ranges but is suspect at others. Her wake up is not great and is actually a fair bit worse than Abel's but quite similar to Makoto's in that everything loses to grab and the move that beats hits can be blown up as well if the opponent sets things up properly.

 

Her pressure is outstanding and her mix ups are very strong. She also has reliable oki/meaty set ups because all of her knockdowns aside from sweep cannot be back-teched, so you only have to deal with quick rise/not quick rise. Damage and stun is really good (even better in V-trigger) She is much like Abel in that it's about being right, riding momentum and conditioning/reading people at speed. A lot of her pressure is not real at all and is reliant on good conditioning and steamrolling the opponent into being scared enough to take it. Her super is good as it's the second fastest in the game, punishes lots of things and can be landed in combos as well. That said, she is quite a meter-hungry character as she needs EX fireballs for most of her best offense and she needs EX shoulder in a lot of match ups too. I think she'll end up falling into a similar bracket as Abel, as she's a one-dimensional character who is very explosive and can beat anyone at any time, seems unstoppable when you lose to her but will struggle to win tournaments as it's hard to consistently be right and have everything go your way for a whole tournament when your character simply has to make big reads to win.

 

Cammy has excellent mid-range, great mobility, good anti air, an invincible DP, 3f buttons that lead to confirms, very potent throw/counter hit/"shimmy" game, a dive kick, great damage/stun and a fast and very versatile super. Her main weakness is that she has the joint lowest health in the game and can lose pretty fast if things don't go her way and her uppercut is a huuuuuuge risk, even moreso than the rest of the cast I'd say.

 

Vega is tough to call. I think form what I've seen so far he's best at playing the long game and irritating the opponent over a long round, then sitting on his resources and letting them hang themselves. He has some really good normals (made extra scary when he has V-trigger/super stocked), he has a better up close/pressure game than he's had previously, decent damage/stun and the command grab is a nice option, he is still just as much of a liability on defense as he ever was and his anti-airs are as patchy as you'd expect from the character. His V-reversal is amazing in that it allows for punishes other characters don't get but also utterly shit because it doesn't get him out of the corner. I dunno. I feel like he's a bit under-represented at high level and I need to see more from Reiketsu or something.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to Kayin Amoh for the invites this evening - sorry the connection was so unpredictable :( it seemed to be really good at times and then suddenly go to pieces later, and then improve again, and so on. Still, his Alex is great - that character can be really scary in the right hands. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's so frustrating getting constantly crossed up by Ryu and Kens, the hitbox is digustingly big, you just cant fucking dash in time or get an anti air out quick enough. 

 

Not to mention shit like this:

 

 

That connection was perfect. Shoryuken out of a ex grab get out. If you pause exactly on 0:03 you can clearly see the first frame of the grab has connected. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I need to stop playing ranked for a bit and just drill some execution stuff. Finding it exceedingly difficult to cancel into bullhead from lights in actual matches. Lk lp blocked bullhead is not a game winner. 

 

Hoping to get on for some games Thursday or Friday evening if I can pull myself away from souls. Would love to get battered by some of my rllmuk brethren. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.