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SeanR

Another ZX Spectrum device indiegogo fundraiser

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£1.5million of debt

 

 

57462727_10219481419407948_4607627042404

 

Paul Andrews adds:

 

Quote

Obviously I know more detail on this, but for various reasons won't currently go into that detail, but for clarity whatever the debt turns out to be don't forget around £1m in cash went into and then out of the company since the point myself and Chris Smith left of course, on top of any debts as well.

it seems the £1.5m debt does not include the other £0.5m debt owed to backers, and the £1m in cash already gone out of the company.

For clarity we also have copies of the bank statements over and above the prior ones, to now also cover July 2017 to jan 2019

 

 

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa!

Edited by SeanR

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But will anyone be held to account? I doubt it.

At best someone will be struck off from being a director for a few years, but there's ways around it so they'll pop up again and do the same thing to some other poor unsuspecting customers "backers".

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14 hours ago, SeanR said:

£1.5million of debt

 

 

57462727_10219481419407948_4607627042404

 

Paul Andrews adds:

 

 

 

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa!

 

The final amount of debt is very surprising, makes you wonder who they owed money to.

 

The final statement from the receivers summary on the status of the backers is the most damning piece to me. It really shows how little the crowdfunding companies like Indiegogo provide to the backers. Even when a company goes into liquidation, the £500k paid by the backers is not considered a debt due to the terms of the campaign, even though the backers basically funded the whole fucking thing and this money enabled the directors to build up even more debt, and yet the backers are entitled to fuck all. 

 

I’m absolutely astonished that he crowdfunding companies can get away with this - offering zero insurance or even following up on their “threats” of “sending the bailiffs” in when in actual fact all they’re doing is taking a 10% cut to essentially provide a web and email marketing platform with no legal consequences when it goes wrong.

 

 

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Sounds like it's pretty much all over.  The only chance for backers to get any money back is to sue the directors.   But the problem there is that it seems the solicitors would have priority on getting money in that regard.  If anyone sues first, it's probably them. So I think backers are screwed completely

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16 hours ago, gone fishin' said:

 

 

The final amount of debt is very surprising, makes you wonder who they owed money to.

 

 

Themselves maybe? So if there was any money recovered it would go straight back to them?

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On 18/04/2019 at 13:06, gone fishin' said:

It really shows how little the crowdfunding companies like Indiegogo provide to the backers

 

If baffles me why people give money to crowd funders in the first place, where you're essentially giving money to the platform and campaign creator with no guarantee you'll get anything back.

 

On the flip side, I'm surprised more scammers don't do crowd funding campaigns. 

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8 minutes ago, Ste_S said:

 

If baffles me why people give money to crowd funders in the first place, where you're essentially giving money to the platform and campaign creator with no guarantee you'll get anything back.

 

 

That's all part of it though surely? You aren't backing a guaranteed thing and there will always be a risk something will go wrong.  Over the years I've backed 33 different crowd funders and 27 have been successful. Like all things there's a risk but its worth it when they do pay off.

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5 minutes ago, Lorfarius said:

 

That's all part of it though surely? You aren't backing a guaranteed thing and there will always be a risk something will go wrong.  Over the years I've backed 33 different crowd funders and 27 have been successful. Like all things there's a risk but its worth it when they do pay off.

I’ve backed two things - the Spectrum Next, which is now nearly 18 months behind schedule and that Mastertronic Archive book where the guy looks like he just pissed off with the money.

 

Im not too upset about the book, as it was only £20 or so, but I’m annoyed about the Next which was nearly £200 (yes, I’m sure it will arrive, but it was a lot of money).

 

I guess it depends on how much you’re willing to risk, a few quid for a book or a game is worth the punt. Hundreds for a piece of hardware with what it turns out is absolutely no guarantee or any actual force coming from the crowdfunding companies to ensure delivery? I’m not sure crowdfunding is the best option and to be blunt there’s no way I’d back any similarly priced project as the Next now. 

 

Lets face it, the likes of Indiegogo and Kickstarter offer what is a basic marketing platform (web page, email) and a payment system, which is all good if you are a campaign creator. What they should be offering is more insurance and management for the backers - only allowing funds to be released when agreed milestones are reached, holding campaign owners accountable. 

 

But I guess that costs too much money.

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25 minutes ago, gone fishin' said:



Lets face it, the likes of Indiegogo and Kickstarter offer what is a basic marketing platform (web page, email) and a payment system, which is all good if you are a campaign creator. What they should be offering is more insurance and management for the backers - only allowing funds to be released when agreed milestones are reached, holding campaign owners accountable. 

 

But I guess that costs too much money.

 

The problem with that is a lot of these are doing fund raising so they can get the product developed/produced. Locking away the funding most of the time means they won't be able to build what's required.

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On 26/04/2019 at 14:25, gone fishin' said:

I’ve backed two things - the Spectrum Next, which is now nearly 18 months behind schedule and that Mastertronic Archive book where the guy looks like he just pissed off with the money.

 

Im not too upset about the book, as it was only £20 or so, but I’m annoyed about the Next which was nearly £200 (yes, I’m sure it will arrive, but it was a lot of money).

 

I guess it depends on how much you’re willing to risk, a few quid for a book or a game is worth the punt. Hundreds for a piece of hardware with what it turns out is absolutely no guarantee or any actual force coming from the crowdfunding companies to ensure delivery? I’m not sure crowdfunding is the best option and to be blunt there’s no way I’d back any similarly priced project as the Next now. 

 

Lets face it, the likes of Indiegogo and Kickstarter offer what is a basic marketing platform (web page, email) and a payment system, which is all good if you are a campaign creator. What they should be offering is more insurance and management for the backers - only allowing funds to be released when agreed milestones are reached, holding campaign owners accountable. 

 

But I guess that costs too much money.

 

You could easily sell your Next pledge for what you paid for it. Problem solved, there is no financial risk with it.

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On 26/04/2019 at 14:02, Ste_S said:

 

If baffles me why people give money to crowd funders in the first place, where you're essentially giving money to the platform and campaign creator with no guarantee you'll get anything back.

The majority of the time, you're paying money upfront to a team of people with a genuine passion and work ethic who are committed to producing a product but need to the cash to fund tooling, studio costs, production costs etc.

 

Things go wrong - Manufacturing doesn't scale well, prototypes don't prove to be durable enough and need significant redesign, costs rise, unforeseen things happen. The majority succeed as planned or with delays but projects fail for all sorts of reasons, many of which are unexpected or unpredictable. You're absolutely right though, it is a gamble.

 

If you see every penny spent on reaching the goal but for some reason they don't quite make it, it's a pisser, but that's life.

 

In this instance, it appears that there was very little effort made to actually produce a product, just lies, legal battles, internet tittle tattle and mud slinging. That's not a pisser, it's tantamount to theft.

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1 minute ago, InUpDown said:

you don't pay postage + packing for an 'idea' though...

That's a good point. At the very least, the crowdfunding companies could hold the P&P costs back till the product is proven to be ready to ship.

For some items (vinyl singles or LPs are a good example), the P&P cost (depending on country) can be as much as the item itself.

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12 hours ago, cubik said:

That's a good point. At the very least, the crowdfunding companies could hold the P&P costs back till the product is proven to be ready to ship.

For some items (vinyl singles or LPs are a good example), the P&P cost (depending on country) can be as much as the item itself.

 

The problem with that is a lot of these crowdfunders pay for the stuff to be built and shipped at the same time. They aren't a business and don't have warehouses to stock piles and piles of these things so what are they supposed to do if its thousands of them? Can't really account for how many will need to be stored either as they might get loads of orders from the KS. And even if they did hold it back, what's to stop said crook claiming the stuff is ready to send from a factory in China.

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21 hours ago, Dudley said:

Yeah remember they had plenty of supposed shots of production ready Vega.

 

and the boxes...

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1 hour ago, jackfrost71 said:

Being £1.5 Million in debt makes the lie about backers funds being ring fenced,  just that much worse.

 

 

lie after lie after lie after lie.

 

 

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On 28/04/2019 at 22:29, cubik said:

That's a good point. At the very least, the crowdfunding companies could hold the P&P costs back till the product is proven to be ready to ship.

could do, or just make it something that's automatically included in the initial pledge/donation *if* the product comes to fruition... would be a risk still, obviously.  these things could never not be.

 

 

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10 hours ago, InUpDown said:

could do, or just make it something that's automatically included in the initial pledge/donation *if* the product comes to fruition... would be a risk still, obviously.  these things could never not be.

 

 

 

But that's not how shipping works. When you have large volumes of items to ship it needs to be paid for upfront and the company won't be able to do that on the fly. Will add more time to it and turn the crowdfunding into more of a banking service having to keep the money, which they won't want, and then they'd be more liable to legal cases. I'm not defending these toe rags who rip off people but it's just a bad idea in general.

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5 hours ago, Lorfarius said:

 

But that's not how shipping works. When you have large volumes of items to ship it needs to be paid for upfront and the company won't be able to do that on the fly. Will add more time to it and turn the crowdfunding into more of a banking service having to keep the money, which they won't want, and then they'd be more liable to legal cases. I'm not defending these toe rags who rip off people but it's just a bad idea in general.

 

But that’s not how product design, manufacturing and logistics works in the business world! ;-)

 

You organise, and pay, as you hit each milestone in the project. You don’t raise £500k in funding and then organise, and pay, for your shipping straight away. You do that when the product is designed and you have visibility of a manufactured date (essentially you’d be ring-fencing funds for that project component, like how RCL claimed to have ring fenced the money for the production of the Vega+, right?? That’s the problem when you leave that decision to the campaign owners, who says they have?)

 

Thats how it would be more than possible to release funding as milestones are reached. How many of these campaigns are run by people who have no idea of the whole process? That literally run out of money because they’ve misspent it, not realising they had to keep money at the end for shipping, or even manufacturing?

 

As far as I can tell, Kickstarter and Indiegogo don’t even ask for any credentials in successfully running a project or for even a business plan with milestones. I think I’ve said this before, but you simply would not get any funding like investment or a loan without that level of planning (and cost management). The crowdfunding companies don’t seem to interested in making that part of their service, which would at least give extra assurance to backers (that the money genuinely isn’t just being taken and pissed away). That’s fine if we’re talking about a few thousand pounds, but we’re talking about campaigns raising hundreds of thousands, if not millions, with zero input from the crowdfunding companies apart from taking their 10% cut for providing a web page and email marketing.

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1 hour ago, gone fishin' said:

  

But that’s not how product design, manufacturing and logistics works in the business world! ;-)

 

But this is Kickstarter, not the business world and you don't have to be running one to do crowdfunding, nor should you. You raise a fund to cover the cost of something and plan it out around that. If the money raised goes beyond what's expected they can increase production to match, there's no certainties in what can be raised.

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1 hour ago, Bluejam said:

Old tweet but this is Mr Halsey, confirmed Gemini PDA fan and someone who appears to think Dr Janko can do no wrong 

E2F4F5E9-10CB-40AF-8111-ABD52CF1B4B1.jpeg

 

Stuff like this makes me wonder why Indiegogo etc aren't inundated with more scammers. There's no come back from the platform, and legally the backers don't appear to have a leg to stand on. In fact, like the above, some backers don't seem to care that they've lost their money.

I can only assume most scammers aren't aware of easy it is.

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A lot of the so called shills were quite vocal on the ‘it’s not a lot of money to lose’ argument. 

 

Talking of shills, saw this on twitter today. I think it’s been posted before but I still think it’s shocking although this Chris bloke said he asked them to donate his ‘prize’ to a charity 

CBD6D4DC-00E9-415B-AE08-9DD036391A7E.jpeg

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3020FDAB-79DD-4D16-B71F-F0D558804B90.jpeg

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