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The Greatest Games of This Generation: The Results - 20/10/13 - the top ten


Wiper
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Surely Arkhams character design is true to the source material?

With regards to ME3, I always thought bioware were lucky that the rabid reaction to the ending detracted from criticism of the main game, there weren't even any proper side quests, just narrative based planet scanning.

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Surely Arkhams character design is true to the source material?

Obviously there are a fair few variations within the comic, depending who's drawing it, and of course the comics are hardly known for brilliant depictions of female characters in particular, but the Arkham series plumbs some impressive depths. Generally, for example, Gordon is depicted as a fairly typical, middle-aged/old police officer, reasonably well built. In Arkham Asylum, he's apparently been turned into a neckless, stocky ex-bodybuilder. And as for the female characters:

Traditional Harley Quinn:

HarleyQuinn_03.jpg

Arkham Harley Quinn:

Harley_Quinn_Arkham_Asylum.jpg

I mean, I'm not even sure that the harlequin pun she's based around even makes any sense here any more.

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Portal 2 ending that high up surprises me. I was a bit disappointed with it, I much prefer the original game in its focused simplicity.

I too think Portal does some things better, but on the other hand 2 introduced great new characters with an incredibly witty script in general, more variety and an utterly superb co-op mode that might be the best thing about it.

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Not to mention that her waist is the same width as her head. Ridiculous proportion.

To be fair, that particular aspect is no worse than her cartoon design, it's just more obvious because they're keeping those proportions while moving to a more 'realistic' aesthetic, and then made infinitely more creepy by having switched her outfit from an all-in-one not-quite-harlequin outfit to a slutty nurse/two-tone bodice and thong ensemble.

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I'm looking forward to the top ten, mostly because I know Wiper will be having a proper self abuse crank as he hammers away alternatively between himself and his keyboard, spluttering wracking sobs of confused joypain.

Also there's surely something I haven't played in that top 10 so I'm looking forward to picking it up :)

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Just a quick post to say great work on this Wiper.

Been a good read even if several of your comments on games has made me angry...

Unfortunately I never got to vote in this, but to be honest even if I was around at the time I would have probably not bothered due to how little I've actually played this gen. If I had voted I reckon my list would have been something like;

1. GTA V
2. Halo 3
3. Portal 2
4. Mirror's Edge
5. Super Meat Boy
6. Marble Blast Ultra
7. Hidden in Plain SIght
8. Minecraft
9. Animal Crossing New Leaf

10. FIFA something or other

Gives you an indication of how little I've played this gen.

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It'll be up tomorrow - and I've only three games left to make comments on (one of which I've never played, so that should be pretty short), so it'll be nice and easy for me to finish off then.

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I don't mind, in fact welcome views away from the norm/masses. But as the poll maker and writer for the countdown, the descriptions for the games should be impartial, in fact even better if you took one that praised it/voted it game of the generation, whilst another who didn't get all the fuss. In the style of most positive/most critical reviews put head to head on Amazon.

Many people will be reading the results and looking to pick up and play gems they have missed, so being negative about games that YOU think were bad (but were voted by some) would put off the people who agree with the latter and not your opinion.

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Super Street Fighter 4 not being in the top 10 is really disappointing. Wiper just calling it "alright" and saying 3rd Strike is a better game is just plain ludicrous.

I need to find JLM's post describing why SF4 is the better game as sums my thoughts exactly.

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Super Street Fighter 4 not being in the top 10 is really disappointing. Wiper just calling it "alright" and saying 3rd Strike is a better game is just plain ludicrous.

I need to find JLM's post describing why SF4 is the better game as sums my thoughts exactly.

Here was JLM's wonderful explanation of exactly why he feels Street Fighter IV is the better game. And I agree with him:

I love Third Strike but SSFIV is comfortably the better game for me. Parries are exciting but also massively limiting in terms of the number of effective strategies

Necro is a Dhalsim style character who would be great in SF2 or SF4 but in Third Strike what's the point in his array of rangey normals when you can't control space with them thanks to parries? Remy is like a deluxe version of Guile who would be great in SF2 or SF4 but is largely redundant in the game he was created for because of parries. The absolute classic, Streetfighter 101 fundamental strategy of "Throw fireball - > opponent jumps over fireball - > opponent eats dragon punch" doesn't exist because of parries. The fireball doesn't force an action from the opponent because they don't take any chip damage, and if they jump in at a bad range they can parry your anti-air regardless.

The post knockdown game is also massively diluted because everyone has the universal option to wake up parry and not have to take chip or deal with a mix up. Or, to be more accurate, guessing/predicting whether the opponent will parry or not essentially is the mix up. I'm fully aware that there are strategies to combat this, but I don't think it should even be a thing. The smaller and more character specific the opponent's pool of options on wake up the better, because it then becomes more about conditioning the opponent and reading their tendencies. One of the reasons purists still love SSF2 Turbo so much is that on wake up you can block, do a reversal or attempt to tech the grab. Simple. Also, if you're down to a pixel of health and the opponent does a chip set up and kills you then that's it. You shouldn't have put yourself in a position where you were on one pixel of health and the opponent gets their reward for taking such a commanding position. In Third Strike even if you have the opponent on zero life and have knocked them down, you're *still* subject to this guessing game.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade the countless thrilling moments that parries have created in 3S and I wouldn't really change anything about the game. However, I do think SFIV is deeper, more balanced and has a much stronger sense of Streetfighter fundamentals. It always amuses me when "old school" players criticise "09ers" and act like 3S is the choice for hardcore players when SF4 is infinitely closer to ST than Third Strike. Third Strike is beautiful, has a great cast of characters, is tonnes of fun to play and is incredibly exciting to watch when played at the highest level. Watching Kuroda and the rest play it is awe-inspiring, but as far as I'm concerned it's barely Streetfighter at all and is, as a result, not the strongest game in the series.

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Yeah, but he's still wrong ;)

Naw, I can totally see where JLM's coming from with that.* It's just that, for me, I never grew up loving fighting games - I liked them, but they never really clicked with me. The first game to really win me over was The Last Blade, which I fell in love with, but was a bit too niche for me to ever really get much competition with. Street Fighter III was the only other 2D fighter I've ever truly loved, as it took the same sort of extreme reaction/prediction-based style of The Last Blade, but made it more accessible, meaning I could actually find people to play with. Also, it was beautiful. But yeah - with the Street Fighters of the world (particularly from Alpha and on) I've always been put off by the rush-down - I just get overwhelmed by it, and that's that, and I've just never been able to get past that. With TLB and SFIII I know I can always turn things around, that I just need to learn enough of my opponent's patterns and I can completely reverse their attacks, which for me makes it much more enjoyable on a moment-to-moment basis. But then, I'm a turtler by nature - in strategy games, shooters and fighting games - so of course I'll always prefer a series which encourages that particular style of play [well, aggressive turtling in SFIII's case].

I should probably have put a smiley after the "Yeah, it’s alright I guess" comment, though - that was meant as tongue in cheek, rather than a flat dismissal. I appreciate that's probably hard to tell, considering my bluntness with other games.

Incidentally, had I considered both versions of Street Fighter IV together, it would have gone up one rank (going from short of Mass Effect by 2 points, to ahead of it by 6). Meanwhile, had I considered Rock Band as a whole, the series collectively would have made 7th. Just for anyone wondering about the effect of not grouping those two.

PS - on the 'impartial reviews' comment elsewhere: ignoring the bit where the very idea of an 'impartial' (or 'unbiased' or 'objective') review of something so subjective as a game is completely absurd, the idea of balancing my own opinions by seeking out equal and opposite ones would, aside from being a complete pain in the arse to do, be a bit of an odd one. I mean, that logically would mean that not only would I have to balance out my comments on games I don't like with positive commentary, but I'd have to balance out my comments on games I do like with critical commentary. So I'd have to what, go trawling around for people who don't like the games I like? And then have the most bland, non-committal list at the end of it. I think I'll stick with this approach.

*I actually intended to link to that post in mine, but completely forgot :facepalm:

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I don't mind, in fact welcome views away from the norm/masses. But as the poll maker and writer for the countdown, the descriptions for the games should be impartial, in fact even better if you took one that praised it/voted it game of the generation, whilst another who didn't get all the fuss. In the style of most positive/most critical reviews put head to head on Amazon.

Many people will be reading the results and looking to pick up and play gems they have missed, so being negative about games that YOU think were bad (but were voted by some) would put off the people who agree with the latter and not your opinion.

They could look at the threads for those games on this forum, or read the voting thread which was a glorious love-in for this passing generation with the majority of people sharing their thoughts about the games they picked.

Do you really think someone is going to think: "Uncharted 2, I've been meaning to play that and rllmuk voted it the 5th best game of the generation... wait Wiper says he thinks it's shit and destroyed games. Well, fuck playing that!"? I think the place on the list counts for more than Wiper's commentary.

Personally, I don't agree with everything Wiper has written about these games but I do enjoy reading it. I just wish he'd commented on all 341, the lazy bastard.

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Mm, the threads are definitely the place to go for the best opinions. The SF4 thread's still going strong after two and a half years, and my P4G thread is full of praise, criticism, questions, answers, but mostly a genuine shared interest in the game. I agree that Wiper's comments are occasionally a bit biased (both towards and against particular games) but there are usually other threads to visit for more varied opinions. :)

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Mm, the threads are definitely the place to go for the best opinions. The SF4 thread's still going strong after two and a half years, and my P4G thread is full of praise, criticism, questions, answers, but mostly a genuine shared interest in the game. I agree that Wiper's comments are occasionally a bit biased (both towards and against particular games) but there are usually other threads to visit for more varied opinions. :)

If by varied you mean positive, at least early in a game's lifespan if that game has either particularly wide or particularly fervent support. That's not bitterness talking by the way, but rather resignation - I'm thinking as much of threads for games I love in this as any others - too many times I've seen people shouted down for not liking Persona 4, or Binary Domain, which has helped make both those threads a bit too much of a love-in - I mean, I will happily recommend both games to most people, but I recognise that some people may not enjoy Persona 4 Golden because of its setting/the fact it still has a lot of JRPG gameplay/the fact it's moved away from some JRPG traditions they may like, and Binary Domain is still very much a typical cover shooter with clunky presentation, so it's understandable that not everyone is impressed by it, but go into those threads and those perspectives will largely be absent.

Personally, I think this thread is generally doing better for that - obviously any games that are widely/fervently liked I tend to get nice contradictory comments shortly after my list (and if I don't it's a bit of a shame, but that's on the fans of the game), and at least occasionally get criticism of the games I've praised (most recently a mix of both, with the Mass Effect 3 praise/Mass Effect 2 criticism, though that was a bit odd as I'd actually praised ME1 not 2).

But yeah, the main thing people should be taking away is that I may be hating on a game, but eight (or however many) people clearly liked the game enough that they put it in their top ten games of the entire generation, and surely that's likely to count for more than my opinion. Unless, of course, that person is one of the rare people who largely shares my tastes, in which case they'd have good reason to consider my opinion relevant, which is as it should be - I don't know about you, but for me the most important thing when considering how much weight I place on a review is how much I usually agree with the reviewer - if our tastes frequently diverge I'll take their recommendations with a pinch of salt, if they usually match then I'll take them into serious consideration. And if there's one thing my approach guarantees, it's that people can easily judge from the games they've played whether my tastes roughly align with theirs or not.

(I'm not really sure what you mean by bias, though. I mean, I either like games or I don't. Unless you're referring to games where I've commented on their developers in derogatory fashion, which would make some sense, but doesn't generally affect whether I like the game or not, just adds flavour to my criticism. For example, I actually really like Valve as a company, I think they're very much amongst the 'good guys' in development, but that doesn't stop me disliking the majority of their output)

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I'm talking more about the fact that dedicated threads have had more time to develop plenty of impressions from different people; people who are new to a series, people who might not be diehard fans of a genre, people who missed out on SF Alpha/SF EX/SF3 but want to get into SF4. I don't mind that you're adding your own personal views on the games - the results will speak for themselves, after all - but there have been plenty of opinions posted before this thread, and plenty posted after an initial love-in, so no-one needs to get worked up about one individual's negative impressions in here.


As for bias, I'm suggesting that collecting 1691 votes from 172 voters is always going to result in praise for games that you might not like or haven't played, but consequently the summaries end up reading like your personal impressions of the forum's favourite games. Again, nothing wrong with that - there are plenty of places to go for other opinions, and I think a little bias can make things more interesting - but at the same time I can see why comments like Bacon's up there have been made. :)

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I'm not quite sure what the guy is supposed to do other than write about the games from his point of view. Make shit up?

Well, no. The thing is, there are plenty of people who offered opinions on why they chose the games they did, he could easily draw from them rather than just say how terrible he thinks they are. I've been meaning to post something for a while, as there are several points I disagree with which seem to be born more from biases he has with certain types of games, or saying things about them for a sound bite because it sounds good ("look forward to the day when Rockstar North decide to allocate a little of the money that normally goes on big-name actors to hiring an actually decent writer"? - There are no big name actors in GTA IV or V) but I'll have to save that for when I've got enough time free after work.

Thing is, I know I'll be in the minority here, but sometimes his list comes off as disrespectful to the people who have voted. People often took the time to write out why they were voting for what they were, but if it's a game he doesnt like (which it seems is quite a lot) he doesnt draw from any of that, and just gives it a bad write up. And this isnt a complaint because he's said bad things about some of the games in my list (some utterly wrong things as well), but if you're doing a list like this, the writeup should reflect the people who voted as well, instead of just being a soapbox for the author to slag off games he doesnt like. Like I said, sometimes it feels like he's disrespecting the people who took the time to vote and give their opinions on those games, especially with the tone of how he writes about the games he doesnt like.

I appreciate the time you're taking to do this, I do. It even prompted me to start a similar list for horror movies in the Film/TV folder. But some of your write ups are off putting.

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But as the poll maker and writer for the countdown, the descriptions for the games should be impartial

Man puts this much work into this, gratis, he gets to say what the hell he likes. It's an entertaining enough read, which is the most we can ask for.

You're still free to disagree with him. You can run a poll next year and write up the results if you want it to be under BBC Charter rules.

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Man puts this much work into this, gratis, he gets to say what the hell he likes. It's an entertaining enough read, which is the most we can ask for.

You're still free to disagree with him. You can run a poll next year and write up the results if you want it to be under BBC Charter rules.

Wiper has done a lot of work on this, and I'm enjoying his comments. He's not pretending to be unbiased, these are his own opinions. The game specific threads are there if you want to go into deeper discussions, but I'm loving the job he's done here. Led me to pick up an old copy of Mirror's Edge for a couple of quid as I had it ages ago but never really got through it. Loved playing it last night.

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Yeah I'm liking his take on some of the titles as well.. Finding it actually much more interesting than a balanced Meta-critic style roundup of general opinion.

Besides let's face it, most of us will have atleast heard of the majority of titles in the top 100, and the fact people have seen fit to nominate them in a "best of generation" category should be enough of an incentive for people to give any of them a try, regardless of Wipers personal opinion on them.

I'm also going to make a point of playing the highest rating game that I haven't tried yet.

Looking forward to the top 10! :)

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I'm also going to make a point of playing the highest rating game that I haven't tried yet.

Looking forward to the top 10! :)

I had initially agreed to do this, but I've got a horrible feeling it's going to be Skyrim which is about as far removed from my kind of thing as it's possible to be, so perhaps I'll give it a miss!

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