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Wiper

The Greatest PC Games of All Time: The Results - Top 5 now up.

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I never meant to present any pretence, from 100 through to 1, that any of the commentary offered was anything other than my own opinion of the games described. Just ask the fans of Dark Souls, or DOTA2.

Still, the only part of your post that genuinely bothers me is your final sentence. I would point out that, had I really wanted to alter the method of counting to suit my own preferences - or even to make up the results - there was nothing to stop me from doing so. I knew the results before I drafted my first post, and it would have been child's play to alter things to better match my preferences. I didn't, because I was interested in demonstrating what people actually thought, not reinforcing my own preferences. I'd assumed, therefore, that a joke about changing the way the votes was counted in order to back up my own votes would be treated as just that, not as something undermining everything I'd written.

I love Dota 2, but your write up didn't bother me because it was obviously in jest and you didn't write much about it. You did, however, write several paragraphs about WoW though and made a lot of incorrect assumptions about a game you've not played for long. There is a lot of skill in the combat and how you build your character; you can spot the difference between a good player and a bad player in seconds. I disliked the dig that it was aimed at the "inexperienced", that it was superficial (it is, in the sense that every computer game is, but Blizzard's "easy to learn, hard to master" mantra holds true here), and the bizarre notion that the social element is a negative thing (and somehow unique to WoW). Every online game, be it CoD or WoW, has a social aspect that helps draws players in. There's nothing wrong with that. It's true that the game has changed a lot over the years (and not for the better) but the first few years were phenomenal.

I wasn't being entirely serious with my second point either, it's why I added a cheeky wink at the end. I know the results aren't fixed.

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pff, no need to defend yourself. The overall placings are reflective of the forum's tastes, everything else is your opinion, what's so hard to understand? I enjoyed your mini reviews, fwiw.

You're right, of course - drinking apparently makes me somewhat defensive.

Glad to hear other people's opinions on games, too - all perspectives are welcome, even when they are wrong ;)

Here's where my choices ended up.

Quake - #12

Deus Ex - #2

Morrowind - #32

Half Life - #1

Minecraft - #17

Civ IV - #27

SimCity 4 - #126

Portal - #4

A nice range you picked there, to be sure, running the gamut of genres and positions within the vote.

My own list was somewhat less eclectic - a lot of RPGs/expansive games, one adventure and one puzzle game, 4 in the top 10, none outside of the top 100:

1. Deus Ex - came 2nd

2. Dragon Age: Origins - came 62nd

3. Fallout 2 - came 87th

4. Alpha Protocol - came 69th

5. Planescape: Torment - came 11th

6. Little Big Adventure 2 - came 69th

7. System Shock 2 - came 10th

8. Hitman: Blood Money - came 78th

9. Day of the Tentacle - came 6th

10. Portal - came 7th

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and the bizarre notion that the social element is a negative thing (and somehow unique to WoW). Every online game, be it CoD or WoW, has a social aspect that helps draws players in. There's nothing wrong with that.

Ah, but there is if you're me - I hate all online elements in games. All of them. Can't stand playing with random people off the internet, don't even really enjoy playing solely with people I do know if it's over an internet connection. Multiplayer needs to be local, or non-existent, as far as I'm concerned. You can probably guess why I'm not a huge fan of MMORPGs, or Blizzard's games in general.

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Nice ending list if a little misanthropic! Would be good to see write ups on the top5 from other members as well.

I was surprised Doom made it in, a watershed moment for sure, but a formula which I think has been bettered many times since. Doom 2 for instance, imo, was a much superior game.Was equally gutted WoW made it in, having had a 6 month sub for it, I just could not find the appeal and after 100 hours I packed it in. Awful game to me.

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You're right, of course - drinking apparently makes me somewhat defensive.

Glad to hear other people's opinions on games, too - all perspectives are welcome, even when they are wrong ;)A nice range you picked there, to be sure, running the gamut of genres and positions within the vote.

My own list was somewhat less eclectic - a lot of RPGs/expansive games, one adventure and one puzzle game, 4 in the top 10, none outside of the top 100:

1. Deus Ex - came 2nd

2. Dragon Age: Origins - came 62nd

3. Fallout 2 - came 87th

4. Alpha Protocol - came 69th

5. Planescape: Torment - came 11th

6. Little Big Adventure 2 - came 69th

7. System Shock 2 - came 10th

8. Hitman: Blood Money - came 78th

9. Day of the Tentacle - came 6th

10. Portal - came 7th

I don't get how you can love RPGs but dislike Dark Souls. It's the best RPG ever hands down and makes everything else that came before look thrown together in 5 minutes. It's actually ruined RPGs for me by being TOO good. I tried to go back to Skyrim lately and it just feels so flimsy and 'rubbing things against other things' combat-wise.

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Does Planescape Torment have similar combat to Baldur's Gate? I hated that in those games you effectively had to keep saving because every battle could hit you with a critical + 50 instadeath at any moment meaning a reload.

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I don't get how you can love RPGs but dislike Dark Souls. It's the best RPG ever hands down and makes everything else that came before look thrown together in 5 minutes. It's actually ruined RPGs for me by being TOO good. I tried to go back to Skyrim lately and it just feels so flimsy and 'rubbing things against other things' combat-wise.

Yeah, but Skyrim was always awful :P

Also, more importantly, there's an important distinction to be made between the elements that RPGs can focus on:

Linear narratives with defined characters (e.g. Final Fantasy). Don't like these.

Narratives where the player defines their own character and impacts upon other characters and the world (e.g. The Witcher, Alpha Protocol). Love these.

Strategic, group-based combat systems (e.g. Dragon Age, Fire Emblem). Like these.

Real-time, single-character combat systems (e.g. Dark Souls). Indifferent to these.

Vast expanses to explore (e.g. Morrowind, Ultima). A welcome element in a game.

Dungeon crawling (e.g. Diablo, Rogue). Completely uninterested in this.

By my standards, Demons Souls is a rubbish RPG. It doesn't allow me to express myself through anything other than combat. Its combat system is a kind I have no real interest in. Its focus on getting better equipment and levelling does nothing for me. And I had no interest in exploring its environments, all of which just felt like dungeon crawls.

It might be the best at what it does, but it does nothing I look for in an RPG.

Does Planescape Torment have similar combat to Baldur's Gate? I hated that in those games you effectively had to keep saving because every battle could hit you with a critical + 50 instadeath at any moment meaning a reload.

Reasonably similar, and it does still suffer from D&D's dice roll system. Nothing stopping you sticking it on easy, though, and at least your lead character is immortal.
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Your party isn't quite as immortal as you are, and everyone in your party "dying" does lead to you being knocked unconscious, and generally waking up in a morgue or somewhere else you'd rather not be. Not as final as a game over screen (and sometimes actually quite useful), but still irritating.

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Ah, but there is if you're me - I hate all online elements in games. All of them. Can't stand playing with random people off the internet, don't even really enjoy playing solely with people I do know if it's over an internet connection. Multiplayer needs to be local, or non-existent, as far as I'm concerned. You can probably guess why I'm not a huge fan of MMORPGs, or Blizzard's games in general.

I was about to say we're polar opposites, but not so much. I hate playing online games with random people too, but that's one of the strengths of WoW (and MMOs) to me: I joined a guild and played with the same people for a long time, and even now still play a lot of games with the same half a dozen people (5 years later). It's why I don't like SC2 that much (I'm not interested in 1v1 games anymore), and it's why I never play Dota 2 by myself. But for me the social aspect was a big part of it.

1. Counter Strike (14)

2. World of Warcraft (3)

3. Rollercoaster Tycoon (36)

4. Dota 2 (69)

5. Knights of the Old Republic (48)

6. Baldur's Gate 2 (22)

7. Quake 3 Arena (32)

8. Warcraft 3 (180)

9. Left 4 Dead (199)

10. Starcraft (146)

Apparently very few people agreed with my 8-10 :D

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Yes, top work on this and I enjoyed your write-ups also! That's despite your feeble attempt to rubbish the greatest game of all time ever, Amen.

I was glad to see Doom rated so highly because it was such an important game. I've also been playing the original Doom series in ZDoom over the past few weeks and they still feel and play great, and they also still have the capacity to make me jump with their cheap scares which is more than I can say for most modern games.

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Doom and Quake are still incredible games today, plus they have a lot of their creators personality in them (even though all the metalhead stuff is something I was never into) that ids modern stuff lacks. I guess it's a lot harder for any one person to influence development when you're on 30 to 50 man teams.

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Thanks for all your work on this, Wiper. Enjoyed your write-ups. It's much more interesting to read criticism that doesn't tip-toe around other people's tastes and redundantly preface everything with "IMO".


I don't get how you can love RPGs but dislike Dark Souls. It's the best RPG ever hands down and makes everything else that came before look thrown together in 5 minutes. It's actually ruined RPGs for me by being TOO good. I tried to go back to Skyrim lately and it just feels so flimsy and 'rubbing things against other things' combat-wise.

The Souls games are dungeon crawlers at heart, though. RJ made a good post about it that is lost in a mega-thread somewhere. People only call it an RPG because they wrongly associate stat-based combat/character progression with role-playing.

And I couldn't imagine playing Skyrim after anything. Tedious game. ;)

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It IS an RPG though. You are role playing a character. There is tonnes of lore, it's just that you have to seek it out. It's not handed to you on a plate like other games.

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It IS an RPG though. You are role playing a character. There is tonnes of lore, it's just that you have to seek it out. It's not handed to you on a plate like other games.

By that logic, any game where you play a role is an RPG. Wipeout is a future racing RPG. Doom is a grumpy space marine on Mars RPG. Ico and Shadow of the Colossus fit all of your description - you fill a role, in a world filled with lore that you have to eke out yourself - but they certainly aren't RPGs.

In fairness, I do think dungeon crawls can be folded into the broad genre of RPGs (they are, after all, basically single player computerisation of the traditional D&D approach to RPGs), but it's important to realise that it's a very broad genre indeed, and a such it's very possible to be a fan of certain subgenres, and completely uninterested in others.

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Hey that's the problem with genres! Not everything fits, to me an RPGs core elements are having a character or characters who have stats/skill points that you upgrade. Other people expand this to include narrative structure and choices.

If a game were to come out that was, let's say, the Witcher but without at of the combat/levelling, but still tons of dialogue and choices, would it still be an RPG?

Id say not, because that would mean Waking Dead is an RPG. Which it clearly isn't.

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Wiper I hate you and I wish your top 100 list had died in that crash

Next time I'll write my top 100 in a combination of Welsh and French and refuse to translate it, see how you like that ;)

Hey that's the problem with genres! Not everything fits, to me an RPGs core elements are having a character or characters who have stats/skill points that you upgrade. Other people expand this to include narrative structure and choices.

If a game were to come out that was, let's say, the Witcher but without at of the combat/levelling, but still tons of dialogue and choices, would it still be an RPG?

Id say not, because that would mean Waking Dead is an RPG. Which it clearly isn't.

Ayup, which is why it's very difficult to play an RPG and then confidently state that "all fans of RPGs will/should like this".

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