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Dota 2 Reborn. Source 2 is here!


Moz
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So, my next ranked game. Magnus goes 0 - 15. My entire team, I do not exaggerate AT ALL, refuse to cross the river for 50 mins. 50 mins. They all just stand around the secret shop autoattacking creep. Running in little circles for some reason. I don't know.

We lose.

I have the highest hero damage, highest tower damage, most last hits, highest GPM (double anyone else), highest XPM, highest tower damage, and get this... THE HIGHEST FUCKING HEALING. A WHOLE 40! SOMEHOW. I DIDN'T EVEN BUY ANY HEALING ITEMS AND WE HAD TWO FUCKING SUPPORTS ON OUR TEAM. (Where did that 40 come from?!)

Guess I need to practice more?

i agree, although it's more Moz's attitude than his experience that puts me off. i reinstalled DOTA2 a few days ago, planning to give it a go over the weekend, but all this moaning about noobs is making me consider claiming back the HD space again. someone's never played this game before, so they deserve to be compared to a chimp? it's a complicated game, filled with counter-intuitive strategies. of course new players are going to have no idea what to do and die.

It's the least noob-friendly game I've ever come across, mostly because it throws people who have never played before in with people with 1000+ matches. Not my fault Valve have the worst matchmaking I've ever seen in a multiplayer game in 30 years. The tutorial also teaches you how to play the game wrong and then forces you to do botmatches against bots which teach you how to play the game wrong.

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Moz's experience is... not exactly standard, I'd say.

Literally everyone I know IRL who plays Dota flat-out refuses to play with even a single random on their team because the matchmaking is so utterly UTTERLY fucked beyond all comprehension. Unfortunately they're mostly a bunch of unemployed stoners or in different timezones so I rarely get to play with them for very long. When I do play with them we win every single game without fail, it's pretty boring.

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Yeah, apologies for the Tusk in Game 2. That was pretty abominable (pun... is it even a pun? I dunno). Anyway, at least he's consigned to A-Z history now.

You did fine, pretty much all I needed was someone else acting as a punching bag! Halberd is a great choice against those heroes too, I learned the other day that Rage is the only type of magic immunity that doesn't remove the Halberd's Disarm, which is an interesting exception.

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Please don't let Moz put you off, it's a great game and like Rudi says, you'd be unlucky to find yourself having that kind of experience. Games get significantly better and more enjoyable as your MMR improves.

I've gone from almost 3000mmr to 1800mmr whilst being the MVP in almost every single game, so no. My winrate is actually going down the lower my MMR goes. The matchmaking is fucked. And yet I can sit in games with/against 4.5kmmr guys and be the MVP with no problem at all and compete without any issues. Funny that.

Gonna try playing on a Chinese server or something.

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I've gone from almost 3000mmr to 1800mmr whilst being the MVP in almost every single game, so no. My winrate is actually going down the lower my MMR goes. The matchmaking is fucked. And yet I can sit in games with/against 4.5kmmr guys and be the MVP with no problem at all and compete without any issues. Funny that.

Gonna try playing on a Chinese server or something.

Wasnt 3k tho was it? You said earlier in this thread that you started at 2700, then lost 1000 mmr due to a 15% win rate which has put you firmly in the trench. Personally I think you may have fucked up your account, I'd scrap it and start again, see what your MMR is after going thru the config games again, at the moment the games are pissing you off and the more annoyed you get the more you lose.

I am hovering around 2500 + or - a 100 MMR and games have mostly been great, get the odd idiot but that's Dota and they are few and far between thank god.

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And Moz, honestly, you portray stuff pretty differently from how it actually is a lot of the time. I've dropped in to watch some of these games that you complain about and often you're making very questionable decisions (even in games you win). You like to portray yourself as the only sane man in a madhouse but sometimes I see you actively taking part in the bedlam.

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Well, I would love your feedback. Please. Tell me at the time. Going purely by every stat available to me I'm often massively outperforming everyone on my team (win or lose), so please throw your advice my way on how I can push that further and get to the point where I can single handedly win games. I would love it. Come play a game with me and witness the abject horror.

I started a new account the other day, my first game had a guy with 700 wins in it. He went 17 - 0 in about 10 mins and I gave up.

I abandoned my last game, my whole team picked carries as usual while a smurf meepo wiped the whole team.

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Well I might chime in from now on then - the only example that springs to mind is a game from a few weeks ago where you were playing as Lina. Your team won but you made some really questionable item choices - you were hurting a lot for mana but built phase boots instead of arcane boots, then later decided to build bloodstone for mana regen even though you absolutely weren't going to snowball or get good use out of it.

As for your first game matching you up with someone with 700 wins - well, yeah. It's the calibration period and the system is explicitly trying to catch people making smurf accounts. The game will toss you into a bunch of different ranking matches and try to figure out where your MMR should be.

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Every single person on my team had never played Dota before, though.

Do you mean this Lina game?

http://dotabuff.com/matches/759363560

The whole team bought phase boots and damage items for fun IIRC. We were all just trying to keep up with ember (literally!) I bought Bloodstone because Ember was snowballing on 26 - 2 by the end of the game, so I stood next to him and leeched charges for mana regen. Nobody else was having mana issues and I thought the ability to suicide would come in handy if I got pudged. In that game I could have stood in the fountain for the entire game and we'd have still won, such was the skill gap between ember spirit and everyone else in the game. Might have been the wrong choices but that was my thinking... Not sure if this was just terrible matchmaking as usual or if he was a smurf, he has 1000+ games played so guessing the former. Look at the enemy team stats, they never stood a chance. Their storm spirit got 16 last hits in 30 minutes.Their Pudge got 11 (wtf?).Their probably-jungling Alchemist got 28. Stupid.

Come play with me sometime, I really appreciate the advice and it'll be funny. If you're watching my games (even if you drop in for a second and take a quick look) PM me some advice. I love it.

Edit: In the interest of balance, I just had a niceish game. Their Nyx Assassin abandoned so it was an unfair fight, but the people on my team weren't too bad.

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For what it's worth, I've been solo queuing for about a month now and it seems fine to me. Sure there are times when my teammates have made questionable decisions and sometimes have even thrown the game, but then again I haven't played perfect and sometimes I'm the weakest link. I do think though, that the mmr can't be so broken that you're a thousand off where you should be

If you reckon you're 3k and you're playing at 1.5k you should be absolutely crushing every game and winning a large portion of them single handedly. A difference that large should be so noticeable that you shouldn't have to rely on anyone but yourself.

My one complaint of the solo queue is that it can be an unfriendly place. I rarely play more than 2 games on the bounce because of the general shittery of most people.

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Don't let a couple of Meepo games fool you, I'm pretty terrible most of the time!

I just spent some time staring into the Moz abyss, in my fourth solo calibration game. I picked Windranger and ended up as the only support, then had to try to protect a Spectre from their Necrophos/Phoenix offlane, which just wasn't happening. I'd pooled our Queen of Pain two tangoes at the start, so I didn't even have the regen to deal with Heartstopper Aura while attempting to harass. :(

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For what it's worth, I've been solo queuing for about a month now and it seems fine to me. Sure there are times when my teammates have made questionable decisions and sometimes have even thrown the game, but then again I haven't played perfect and sometimes I'm the weakest link. I do think though, that the mmr can't be so broken that you're a thousand off where you should be

If you reckon you're 3k and you're playing at 1.5k you should be absolutely crushing every game and winning a large portion of them single handedly. A difference that large should be so noticeable that you shouldn't have to rely on anyone but yourself.

My one complaint of the solo queue is that it can be an unfriendly place. I rarely play more than 2 games on the bounce because of the general shittery of most people.

There is no solo queue :(

I really need to crunch some numbers (I enjoy it, I'm a sick man) and see which type of heroes I do best with in ranked, which I do worst with, and try to spot some patterns.

If you look through the matches of the famed "elo hell" experiment (which is a really interesting thing to behold) the teammates are mostly holding their own:

http://dotabuff.com/players/110289963/matches?page=8

There's not a single match in there (that I can find) where the teammates of the smurf guy rack up 20-30 deaths between them in the first 20 mins, which often happens to me (sometimes I'm the one dying repeatedly!). Is this because he's doing so well and being so mobile that the enemy can't pick off his far less experienced teammates, or vice versa? I'm going to check out some of his replays and try to learn something from them.

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Don't let a couple of Meepo games fool you, I'm pretty terrible most of the time!

I just spent some time staring into the Moz abyss, in my fourth solo calibration game. I picked Windranger and ended up as the only support, then had to try to protect a Spectre from their Necrophos/Phoenix offlane, which just wasn't happening. I'd pooled our Queen of Pain two tangoes at the start, so I didn't even have the regen to deal with Heartstopper Aura while attempting to harass. :(

Ha, you must have missed the game I played with Trigg recently where I picked windranger and went 0-14, haha. Though a bunch of those were at the end of the match when all hope was lost. I died a bunch trying to get off double-shackles for our centaur to blink into, which he would fuck up without fail. I really should have picked Earthshaker. Nobody to blame but myself.

Anyway, looking at the stats of your last game.... 16 last hits on Viper (thats an average of one every two minutes, wat), Puck going 1 - 10 somehow (press E damnit) and a whopping 96 tower damage between all five of you. Yep, welcome to my world facepalm.gif

You know what's weird? Necrophos has the highest winrate of all heroes for the latest patch. I like Nec, might just "main" nec for ages and try to replicate his 60% winrate to boost my own winrate/mmr a bit.

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The thing that stands out to me is the fact he's not playing support. I still stand by the thought that you should be playing a carry of some sort and ignoring your team when they're so bad. It sounds harsh, but if they're morons, you being there isn't going to turn the tide in your favour as a support. It's just another kill for the enemy.

You should play jungle Lycan or something. Start with a Stout Shield, Tangos and a Quelling Blade. Farm the medium and hard camps only and build a quick morbid mask. Then build it into Vlad's. As soon as you get Vlad's, buy a Clarity and a Smoke of Deceit. Pop your Clarity and smoke into the pit. For this, you need to be Level 7 (4-0-2-1), have Vlad's and preferably it needs to be before 8 minutes (definitely before 12). Taking Rosh out solo will net you about 2 levels and from then on you want to literally only farm the Ancients and any empty lanes to try and take towers. If there are no empty lanes, farm the jungle in between Ancients spawning.

Your job is to avoid team fights. Just look at pushing each lane when it's empty. Even if your team 4 man pushes a tower, push another lane. You'll either take the tower solo, or force one or two of the enemy team to try and stop you (if they do come, pop your ult and back off), which allows your 4 man to push their tower without wiping (hopefully).

For items after Vlad's, you want to build for Necro 3. Howl and Feral Impulse affects all controlled units which makes your Necro minions even better.

The only thing to look out for is a ganker of some sort. A Bounty Hunter, Bloodseeker, Riki or anyone like that will no doubt be looking for you in the jungle. So that's something to keep in mind.

(For the record, I'm yet to play Lycan. But I've read a fair bit about him :P)

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The thing that stands out to me is the fact he's not playing support. I still stand by the thought that you should be playing a carry of some sort and ignoring your team when they're so bad. It sounds harsh, but if they're morons, you being there isn't going to turn the tide in your favour as a support. It's just another kill for the enemy.

This is so often the issue, if you pick support you get useless carries, if you pick a carry you get zero supports. If you try to jungle, you get ganked due to nobody calling missing, lack of wards etc. Often you can't even buy your own wards because other people buy them and don't use them. Last time I tried to play Lycan things started off well enough, but our Tidehunter ended up dying 17 times in quick succession and feeding the enemy to the point they could lock me down with ease.

I do like playing Lycan or DP for the push and easy farm, but you still have issues. For example in the DP game I played last night, my entire team refused to cross the river after the ten minute mark. For 40 minutes they ran around our jungle while I used BOT to chip away at the T2s, T3s and racks, usually suiciding with moments to spare. Of course this elicited "U SUKC" comments from the rest of my team, who were busily autoattacking creep and going 0 - 15.

I think picking a semicarry or carry who isn't too reliant on farm/lategame and ignoring your teammates might be the way to go. Picking forgiving pubstomp heroes is probably the best bet too. You need to be able to initiate, secure a kill AND escape ideally, I can't think of many heroes who can do that.

As an aside I would recommend dotabuff pro to anyone, you can really dig into the stats for each game and see where you went wrong, it's excellent. Lord knows why Valve don't seem to take any of these stats into account when determining who you should be playing with and against. Their trueskill stuff is wonderful to click through:

Dd8Po00.jpgsbetDal.jpgdu1P7qU.jpg

Xi1CF7K.jpg

PIwsC1t.jpg

I love the "gold lost, gold fed" bit especially :lol:

I'm not sure how 2+2+2 =7 in the "objectives" bit though :hmm:

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I agree with Loki, when I generally solo queue I pick a strong solo hero. When we play together as a 2 man or 3 man with JLR we generally pick heroes that work well together just so we know if the other two aren't up to much we can try make plays between the 3 of us. It doesn't always work but I don't think we do too bad.

Playing support solo queued can work, but I find it much more hit and miss generally speaking.


I right wanna play with Ingy because he's good. Ingy, teach me some skills pls thx. :)

Me too!

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You need to be able to initiate, secure a kill AND escape ideally, I can't think of many heroes who can do that.

Slark maybe? He's ultra dependant on a good start. But you can always go mid for the quick levels and easy access to top and bot. If the enemy is shit enough, they won't even have the river warded, never mind the gank routes.

Just set up "Ganking top" and "Ganking bottom" on your chat wheel and ping the lane before you initiate. If the gank fails, Pounce over the terrain / Shadow Dance away.

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It's probably worth a go. Be better than a Death Prophet no doubt, as she falls off and can be easily taken out by the enemy if you're doing things solo (at least Lycan has his ult to pre-emptively run away).

Gankers also let your team gain control in their lane regardless of how shit they are if you're ganking for them. Played much Riki? He's not so dependant on the early game as Slark at least, and noobs never buy dust, so you should be good to go :P

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The thing that stands out to me is the fact he's not playing support. I still stand by the thought that you should be playing a carry of some sort and ignoring your team when they're so bad. It sounds harsh, but if they're morons, you being there isn't going to turn the tide in your favour as a support. It's just another kill for the enemy.

You should play jungle Lycan or something. Start with a Stout Shield, Tangos and a Quelling Blade. Farm the medium and hard camps only and build a quick morbid mask. Then build it into Vlad's. As soon as you get Vlad's, buy a Clarity and a Smoke of Deceit. Pop your Clarity and smoke into the pit. For this, you need to be Level 7 (4-0-2-1), have Vlad's and preferably it needs to be before 8 minutes (definitely before 12). Taking Rosh out solo will net you about 2 levels and from then on you want to literally only farm the Ancients and any empty lanes to try and take towers. If there are no empty lanes, farm the jungle in between Ancients spawning.

Your job is to avoid team fights. Just look at pushing each lane when it's empty. Even if your team 4 man pushes a tower, push another lane. You'll either take the tower solo, or force one or two of the enemy team to try and stop you (if they do come, pop your ult and back off), which allows your 4 man to push their tower without wiping (hopefully).

For items after Vlad's, you want to build for Necro 3. Howl and Feral Impulse affects all controlled units which makes your Necro minions even better.

The only thing to look out for is a ganker of some sort. A Bounty Hunter, Bloodseeker, Riki or anyone like that will no doubt be looking for you in the jungle. So that's something to keep in mind.

(For the record, I'm yet to play Lycan. But I've read a fair bit about him :P)

Easy on paper, not so easy in practice, or with brain dead team mates, the jungle phase can leave you very low on HP, better to lane him until around 3 then go jungle.

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Slark maybe? He's ultra dependant on a good start. But you can always go mid for the quick levels and easy access to top and bot. If the enemy is shit enough, they won't even have the river warded, never mind the gank routes.

Just set up "Ganking top" and "Ganking bottom" on your chat wheel and ping the lane before you initiate. If the gank fails, Pounce over the terrain / Shadow Dance away.

Slark is a bit skill shot, you'll miss a lot of the pounces at first and look like an idiot and I still do not fully understand his ulti.

Played a few bot matches with Tinker and he seems like he could be very dangerous in the right hands, hi octane stuff with next to no downtime and a lot of warping around the map.

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Jungle Lycan requires zero effort from team mates (except warding so you don't get ganked) though?

And if you're laning, you're sharing Exp which is not what you want if you're after a pre 8 minute Roshan before he gets buffed as you'll soon see you then need a Medallion or some shit.

Literally the only problem you'll have is if you get extremely unlucky with Hellbear / Wildling camp spawns or you're ganked.

I mean, yeah. It's easier on paper, but isn't everything.

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Slark is a bit skill shot, you'll miss a lot of the pounces at first and look like an idiot and I still do not fully understand his ulti.

Played a few bot matches with Tinker and he seems like he could be very dangerous in the right hands, hi octane stuff with next to no downtime and a lot of warping around the map.

Wait for night. He has higher night vision than most so you shouldn't be missing Pounce. It's hardly the most difficult of skillshots either. If he can play at 4.5, I'm sure he can land a Pounce :P

Tinker is good. But you're relying on your team mates more so I reckon. He can struggle if you lose your towers quickly. Whereas with a good start, Slark doesn't give a shit and takes nowhere near a long to get online.

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Also not sure about the play carries thing, I am almost at 2700 MMR now and I mainly play Dark Seer and supports, I do like a hero who can have a big impact on the game but not the main carry, having some success with Shadow Shaman with 2 loses in the my last 7 games with him, I am applying the Siractionslacks school of thought, find the person on your team who is half decent and follow them around helping them become a big fat carry and ignore the idiots.

Also downing towers wins games not kills, had a game last night where we were totally ahead, the other team had no supports but my team got greedy and went hunting for kills, a few lost team fights and we lost when all we needed to do was get me near a tower and Shadow Shamans wards would of downed it.

Regarding Necro, he is great, but cant really do much at the start, so not really a snowball hero would is going to win you games, he is better in a half decent team healing everyone up in team fights and picking off stragglers with his ulti.

You could just pick Void like every other fucker at the moment, even if you are shit at least the enemy do not have him. Silencer as well he was wrecking us in lane yesterday.

We need to organise a five man night, even if it's one night a week at first and see what we can do with some communication.

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Jungle Lycan requires zero effort from team mates (except warding so you don't get ganked) though?

And if you're laning, you're sharing Exp which is not what you want if you're after a pre 8 minute Roshan before he gets buffed as you'll soon see you then need a Medallion or some shit.

Literally the only problem you'll have is if you get extremely unlucky with Hellbear / Wildling camp spawns or you're ganked.

I mean, yeah. It's easier on paper, but isn't everything.

You can solo lane him if you want, seen that done quite a bit, tho you do then need to disappear into the jungle eventually. Once he is up and running tho he's unstoppable at taking down towers. Get Lycan, DP, Shadow Shaman and Prophet if you can fit him in and watch the towers go bye bye.

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Easy on paper, not so easy in practice, or with brain dead team mates, the jungle phase can leave you very low on HP, better to lane him until around 3 then go jungle.

I don't know, Lycan is a fairly easy junglier. One of the easier ones I'd say. If you've not done it before, might take a couple of bot games to practice but its easy enough I'd say. You're only worry is the team ganking you or getting really unlucky jungle spawns.

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I'm at 3k and I play whatever the team needs. But I'm not the one complaining my whole team is a bunch of useless morons. They were suggestions specific to Moz to get him out of the lower bracket. Not suggestions based on my successes.

I'm quite aware that towers wins games too, hence the Lycan pick. His jungle seems like one of the easiest ever. Yeah, the first 2-3 levels may be tough and you might get low on HP. But if you have wards and are aware of the situation you're fine. It's hardly like they're going to be smoke ganking you when they're all so terrible.

I never mentioned Necrophos either. I was talking about getting Necronomicon on Lycan, not the hero.

As for laning a Lycan, it's easily doable, you can even go mid against some heroes, but there's no need if you can jungle. Why take up a lane when you can take the jungle and leave a solo lane for someone else who can't jungle?

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At first he can get really low on HP, some people let him die after the second or third camp cuz it's quicker than walking back to base to heal up. After 3 tho he is a monster. I think it's just against bots you are normally calmer, whereas in a proper game, me at least can get a bit flustered sometimes and mess up.

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Slark is a bit skill shot, you'll miss a lot of the pounces at first and look like an idiot and I still do not fully understand his ulti.

Played a few bot matches with Tinker and he seems like he could be very dangerous in the right hands, hi octane stuff with next to no downtime and a lot of warping around the map.

All you need to know is its incredible.

Although I'm not sure what you don't understand? :huh:

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