Liverpool Football Club Thread

[angel]

13/14 was rodgers going all out with swashbuckling attack but he didnt have the nouse to close it out. 0-3 up at palace with a couple of games to go, anyone with experience would have shut up shop. once that happened he was on a hiding to nothing. so yes he deserves credit for it, but it also ruined him.

[Oh Danny Boy]

That makes no sense at all, Rodgers team was never set up to take leads and then defend them, they weren't a Mourinho team. That wasn't a strength of the team. Its easy to say that they should have shut up shop as an arm chair fan, but if Rodgers had set his team up to take leads and then defend them then Liverpool wouldn't have been in the position to challenge for the title in their first place.

Also you are forgetting that after the Chelsea game Liverpool needed to thump Palace to regain the initiative in the title race with only one game to go, would you shut up shop at 3-0 up and hope for City to slip up in their last game? Or would you try and push for more goals? I'd do the latter especially in a team that had Sturridge and Suarez up front.

I like how Rodgers get criticised for Liverpool losing out on the title (which was really boiled down to an individual error against Chelsea) but not given credit for getting the team there in the first place.

[angel]

its not a case of team setup, its a case of adapting. 0-3 up away, you shut up shop. youve got a point about going for more goals but at 1-3 you really start to consider shutting up shop, and 2-3 you drive the team bus on yourself.

i dont think anyones saying hes worthless, but he definitely took them as far as his abilities could

[DeNeo]

He will. Achterberg has gone too I think.

It was odd he didn't go in the summer. The papers are saying the rest of the staff are staying for now - I can see Pep sticking around, but I'd be surprised if the other 2 do.

[Oh Danny Boy]

its not a case of team setup, its a case of adapting. 0-3 up away, you shut up shop. youve got a point about going for more goals but at 1-3 you really start to consider shutting up shop, and 2-3 you drive the team bus on yourself.

i dont think anyones saying hes worthless, but he definitely took them as far as his abilities could

Why should the team set up shop? They needed 5 goals to be in the driving seat with one game left. Win 3-0 and still its unlikely that Man City would slip up on their final game. You're in the ascendancy, 3-0 is no good, of course you wouldn't shut up shop.

If they hadn't lost the Chelsea game they would have taken their foot off the gas. That wasn't the case so I'm not sure how you got the idea that if Liverpool had won 3-0 it would have been rosey.

And yes it is a case of how the team is set up, that team defended by attacking, football isn't as simple as clicking your fingers and all of a sudden the team adapt to a new set of tactics.

[SMD]

Everyone bangs on about that fucking slip but you know what, City were on fire and there were other shitty results that season. We lost to Hull thanks to two Skrtel own goals and drew with WBA thanks to Toure's dead shitty back pass. Win those two and that's the league.

Also when Gerrard slipped it was 1-0 for over 50 minutes and our experienced captain lost his head and was pelting it at Cech whenever he got sight of the goal. So yeah there was naivety but fuck me, Rodgers in his third full season in the top flight challenged for the title with a squad that had Victor Moses and Iago Aspas.

Not liking the manager because he's not Rafa is daft. Blaming a young, inexperienced man for being young and inexperienced is insanity. You want to point fingers, try above him.

Rodgers didn't work out but he almost did. And it's pure revisionism that he just let Suarez turn up. I didn't want him when we joined but he won me over. Binning him was just a waste of four years.

I have fuck all faith that those running the club know what they're doing.

[angel]

Why should the team set up shop? They needed 5 goals to be in the driving seat with one game left. Win 3-0 and still its unlikely that Man City would slip up on their final game. You're in the ascendancy, 3-0 is no good, of course you wouldn't shut up shop.

If they hadn't lost the Chelsea game they would have taken their foot off the gas. That wasn't the case so I'm not sure how you got the idea that if Liverpool had won 3-0 it would have been rosey.

And yes it is a case of how the team is set up, that team defended by attacking, football isn't as simple as clicking your fingers and all of a sudden the team adapt to a new set of tactics.

you needed 5 goals and a WIN. at 1-3 you should be pragmatic and take it to the last game with as many points, not throw 2 of them away

and yes, for a team of 11 experienced pros and a manager, it really is as simple as clicking your fingers and saying right lads, make sure we keep the lead.

[Gabe]

Why should the team set up shop? They needed 5 goals to be in the driving seat with one game left. Win 3-0 and still its unlikely that Man City would slip up on their final game. You're in the ascendancy, 3-0 is no good, of course you wouldn't shut up shop.

If they hadn't lost the Chelsea game they would have taken their foot off the gas. That wasn't the case so I'm not sure how you got the idea that if Liverpool had won 3-0 it would have been rosey.

And yes it is a case of how the team is set up, that team defended by attacking, football isn't as simple as clicking your fingers and all of a sudden the team adapt to a new set of tactics.

Where are you getting the 5 goals from? If I recall, to win it on goal difference needed City to win their remaining 2 games only 1-0, which would have given them +61. We would therefore needed to gain 12 goals over our last 2 games - it was never going to happen. Our only chance was to win the Palace game and hope that put the pressure back on City and cause them to slip.

Everyone bangs on about that fucking slip but you know what, City were on fire and there were other shitty results that season. We lost to Hull thanks to two Skrtel own goals and drew with WBA thanks to Toure's dead shitty back pass. Win those two and that's the league.

The reason people bang on about the slip is because it really was the reason we lost it. What happened before that game was irrelevant - you might as well pick City's draw with Sunderland and say had they won that it would've ended our chances. Besides, our record over the last 15 games or so was better than City's, so we were more on fire than them.

We only needed a point from the Chelsea game to stay in the driving seat and, whilst we were never a defensive team under Rodgers, there was a naivety present from the top down which didn't help in that game. I remember being annoyed at the time that, a minute before half-time, Gerrard was the deepest player - our centre-backs were both well ahead of him. That was poor game-management, something that we suffered from last season too, when we couldn't close out games.

[Chewylegs]

I like how Rodgers get criticised for Liverpool losing out on the title (which was really boiled down to an individual error against Chelsea) but not given credit for getting the team there in the first place.

That wasn't down to an individual mistake that was down to naivety from the manager. We didn't need to win that game, a draw would have been fine, but when they scored Gerrard was basically the furthest player back!! You think that's good management? He thought he could blow Chelsea away and he was shown up by Mourinho. It was stupid fantasy football.

Edit: What Gabe said!

[Oh Danny Boy]

That wasn't down to an individual mistake that was down to naivety from the manager. We didn't need to win that game, a draw would have been fine, but when they scored Gerrard was basically the furthest player back!! You think that's good management? He thought he could blow Chelsea away and he was shown up by Mourinho. It was stupid fantasy football.

Edit: What Gabe said!

it was stupid fantasy football which got the team in the position of almost winning the league in the first place. I don't understand why we should use that as a stick to beat him with.

Neither was he showed up, unless Mourinho was such a genius that he planned Gerrard's slip? Chelsea provided little danger, 99 times out if a 100 that ball was cleared.

[Chewylegs]

We are in a position to win the league, and yes we played some incredible football to get there, but then you are playing Chelsea who were (3rd) in the league at the time, knowing that a point would be perfect. They came for a draw, that would have been perfect for us. Instead though, we leave our midfielder as the furthest player back and yes he slips, but that slip wouldnt have been so costly if our defenders weren't so far up the pitch!

Don't get me wrong, I wanted Rodgers to succeed, I hate changing managers and at one point I thought he was going to be with us for 10-20years, but since March (?) we have looked awful, absolutely nothing like a side that can win things. His way just stopped working, they players don't seem to want to play for him and his ability to shoehorn players in any position was getting tired and ridiculous.

Finally, we should never ever ever lose 6-1 to Stoke!

[Adrock]

Rodgers' problem was the fact he changed his outlook after Suarez left and he lost Sturridge to long term injury. The club wrote off last season and gave him the renewed backing in the summer with the hope he could get back to that style of play. It never came.

Nobody this season was expecting a title challenge but given the backing of the club you'd expect the team to have the personnel to revert back to the style that allowed the team to play attacking exciting football.

The media has been on Rodgers back for long enough but it is simply unacceptable that Rodgers can repeatedly, at such an early stage in the season, state the job at the club is to rebuild.

The club spent plenty of money in the summer only to be told the club needs to rebuild. That happened two seasons in a row.

After that, as the owner, I would consider the managers position to be untenable. For that reason Rodgers was sacked.

[Chewylegs]

Yeah rebuild, rebuild, rebuild, just shut up and get on with the job! Alas, he was not capable of that!

[angel]

i dont get why oh danny is so unhappy, surely these events are best for the club

[Gabe]

@Adrock - even during the title charge year he was going on about it being a team in transition until about February/March.

I mean, he's probably right in a way - even now - bit only because the club keeps buying so poorly that none of them are good enough to stick around.

[JohnnyNolan]

I mean, he's probably right in a way - even now - bit only because the club keeps buying so poorly that none of them are good enough to stick around.

This is the real issue at the club. Recruitment of new players has been mostly woeful and that goes back much further than Rodgers tenure.

While it'll be interesting to see see who gets brought in as manager I think bigger changes are required behind the scenes. I think if this transfer committee idea is still their anyone taking over is going to struggle in the long term.The way the club is run needs to be looked at, not just the manager.

[glb]

As we do have a convoluted set-up when it comes to transfers, which out of Ancelotti and Klopp, the current frontrunners for the job, is going to be better equipped to work within such a system? I like the appeal of Klopp, and he did wonders with Dortmund once his systems clicked, but Ancelotti has the greater experience, which counts in his favour.

Either way think we're a club that is still 4-5 years off winning the title (at least), but even to achieve a significant title challenge we'd need several top 4 finishes in the coming seasons just to acquire the squad required for a league title. Think the current squad is capable of 5th-6th, maybe 4th if Chelsea's woes continue or one of Arsenal or Manchester United suddenly forget how to play football for a few months. Anything beyond that would take a hell of a blip not just from us, but at least two clubs traditionally above us in recent years.

In the short-term, would just like to see whoever comes in do so with a clear plan in place. If this is anything other than a transitional season we'll be fortunate, but a few clean sheets and cohesive performances would be welcome progress at the moment. What's everyone else expecting / hoping for?

[DeNeo]

While the committee maybe isn't the best set-up, Rodgers was at the heart of it, and had final say on who we bought. He also had mostly his own choices brought in over the past two seasons - most of this summer's buys, plus Lallana, Lambert and Lovren.

He made a rod for his own back by pushing for average players, then having to get rid of them the following season when they didn't perform.

I think the 'committee' signings have actually had a higher hit rate than the Rodgers ones - at least when he actually chose to use them (poor Sahin).

I'm looking forward to having a manager who will suggest more than flavour-of-the-month Premier League players.

[angel]

they need rid of this transfer comittee, ian ayre should be accountable for the useless buys.

[Naysonymous]

they need rid of this transfer comittee, ian ayre should be accountable for the useless buys.

But.. but.. but.. Moneyball! You've seen the movie, right? It worked in Baseball so it's guaranteed to work in football!

[JohnnyNolan]

As we do have a convoluted set-up when it comes to transfers, which out of Ancelotti and Klopp, the current frontrunners for the job, is going to be better equipped to work within such a system? I like the appeal of Klopp, and he did wonders with Dortmund once his systems clicked, but Ancelotti has the greater experience, which counts in his favour.

I think who ever comes in needs to be strong enough to be the one who has the final say on bringing players in. We all know Rodgers was on the committee, but nobody seems to know if he had the final say on who was bought or not.

We also need to address the huge issue of "transitional" seasons. That being keeping hold of your better players to build a team around. The chances are you finish 5/6th and a decent offer from another side and a Coutinho is off. You keep losing your best players and you'll never be anything but transitional.

Also the club needs to stop being run like an amateur outfit. Even before the game yesterday many media sources were saying it was Rodgers last game. Hell, even Sky said it as the players walked out onto the pitch. Like Istanbul's mate, leaking team sheets. He should be sacked and not let near the club again. Completely unprofessional behaviour.

[glb]

Guess sacking a manager in October now makes it a transitional season, barring a new manager coming in and securing a top 4 spot.

Agree that leaks are unprofessional but not sure how they would be better policed? Every club has those just by virtue of the size of the organisation, and the interest levels in their activities. Imagine various clubs also leak info deliberately when it makes sense strategically. Others in here are better informed to speculate on the other backroom shenanigans and how they might be improved, if at all.

[redbloodcell]

But.. but.. but.. Moneyball! You've seen the movie, right? It worked in Baseball so it's guaranteed to work in football!

They're not really doing Moneyball though, and if they're trying to they're doing it really badly.

[Timmo]

Weren't Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing bought precisely from a Moneyball-esque move? Downing would cross onto Carroll's head creating 13.6 goals a season.

[dizogg]

And Charlie Adam! Tbf they are all decent players who had success before and since. Carroll unlucky with injuries. And that was about 4 years ago before Rodgers time. That Damien Camolli and all that shite.

Pretty sure we went from "moneyball" to just trying to get young players with sell on value. Value in talent that has fallen by the wayside. Worked beautifully with Sturridge and Coutinho. Not so well with Balotelli.

[Timmo]

Or Lallana, Markovic, Borini, Allen, Assaidi, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas, Tiago Illori, and possibly Firmino.

[Adrock]

Illori looked good on his loan spells and was never given a chance.

Lallana was never bought as a youngster with potential, he was bought for right now.

Markovic was given 1 season to impress in a new league in a new country and in my opinion he showed flashes of what he could be in the future.

Adding Firmino to your list is stupid but the rest I agree with as being poor. Most were cheap gambles though.

[Timmo]

Hence the word 'possibly'. I think he's looked awful so far. Obviously it could go either way.

[Steely]

C. Benteke	Aston Villa	£32,500,000	22-Jul-15Roberto Firmino	Hoffenheim	£29,000,000*	06-Jul-15Adam Lallana	Southampton	£25,000,000*	01-Jul-14Dejan Lovren	Southampton	£20,000,000*	27-Jul-14Lazar Markovic	Benfica		£19,800,000	15-Jul-14Mario Balotelli	AC Milan	£16,000,000	25-Aug-14Joe Allen	Swansea City	£15,000,000	10-Aug-12Mamadou Sakho	Psg		£15,000,000	02-Sep-13Nathaniel Clyne	Southampton	£12,500,000	01-Jul-15Alberto Moreno	Sevilla		£12,000,000*	16-Aug-14D. Sturridge	Chelsea		£12,000,000	02-Jan-13Fabio Borini	Roma		£10,400,000	13-Jul-12Divock Origi	Lille		£9,800,000*	29-Jul-14Emre Can	B Leverkusen	£9,750,000	03-Jul-14Simon Mignolet	Sunderland	£9,000,000	25-Jun-13P. Coutinho	Inter Milan	£8,500,000	30-Jan-13Iago Aspas	Celta Vigo	£7,000,000	23-Jun-13Tiago Ilori	Sporting Lisbon	£7,000,000	02-Sep-13Luis Alberto	Sevilla		£6,800,000	22-Jun-13Joe Gomez	Charlton 	£6,000,000*	20-Jun-15Rickie Lambert	Southampton	£4,500,000	02-Jun-14Oussama Assaidi	Heerenveen	£3,000,000	17-Aug-12Samed Yesil	B Leverkusen	£1,000,000	30-Aug-12Danny Ings	Free Transfer	Unknown *	01-Jul-15Aly Cissokho	Valencia	On Loan *	20-Aug-13Victor Moses	Chelsea		On Loan *	02-Sep-13Nuri Sahin	Real Madrid	On Loan		25-Aug-12J. Manquillo	Atletico Madrid	On Loan		06-Aug-14Kolo Touré	Free Transfer	Free		02-Jul-13Adam Bogdan	Free Transfer	Free		01-Jul-15James Milner	Free Transfer	Free		01-Jul-15Brendan Rodgers bought 31 players for £291,550,000

http://www.lfchistory.net/Transfers/ByManager/25-1

15M for Joe Allen!? I did not realise that. Its Lallana to Allen on that list that hurt it the most.

Still though Coutinho and Sturridge are a snip!

[redbloodcell]

And Charlie Adam! Tbf they are all decent players who had success before and since. Carroll unlucky with injuries. And that was about 4 years ago before Rodgers time. That Damien Camolli and all that shite.

Henderson too (bought off the back of a season where he got a load of assists). Yeah it was Commoli, and he wasn't doing it particularly well either. Spending lots of money on players using traditional statistical measurements is pretty much the opposite, even.