Liverpool Football Club Thread

[dogsout]

Also, regarding your point about him being stubborn, I think that absolutely is the case. I was moaning about Gomez starting that game because it was completely obvious what would happen. There's literally no point in us having Moreno if he's not going to pick him for a game like that. I mean, he has to know that but still he picks Gomez. He has to know he's going to just lose the ball repeatedly and slow the play down allowing them to get organised. Still, he picks him. He tries to address it at halftime but by then we're 2-0 down and desperate. So why pick him? Why handicap us, and just stubbornly think it won't matter that we're asking a CB to spend most of the game trying to be the sole provider of width on one side of the pitch? In a game when we're going to need width to get around their shape, to break their lines and beat the block. Why? It's so frustrating, and more than a little bit alarming that he's still making stupid, amateurish mistakes like this in season 4.

Unlike many of the rest of you, I didn't feel like we were lucky against Stoke. I saw that as a good win and a decent performance because we were controlling the space and pretty much looked content to take a point until one of our match-winners pops up with a bit of quality to make the difference. To me, the way we approached that game was smart and showed that Rodgers had maybe learned his lesson. Bournemouth was frustrating and lucky but we at least looked solid and hard to play against. But yesterday was just the same old dumb decisions costing us dearly.

Nobody seems to have mentioned it yet but what the fuck is everyone up to for their first goal? Skrtel should put that ball almost anywhere apart from where he did. And then Gomez is asleep and it's 1-0. I can't even begin to explain why or even how Lovren gave them the second goal.

I feel like we've never had an answer that wasn't called Suarez for teams that set up like that against us. I was really hoping Benteke would help address this but then we go back to pissing about, playing very narrow and trying to play endless triangles in midfield. Get high and wide, make diagonal, overlapping runs and get some crosses in for the big man. In theory, we have the players to beat that style now. He just needs to utilise them properly.

[Gabe]

And, once again, Mignolet kicked everything long to Benteke. No variation at all.

It was pretty alarming to see us cycle through three formations once he'd accepted it wasn't working yesterday. It was almost like last season never ended.

Well it hasn't really, has it? Arsenal game aside, you wouldn't say we'd played particularly well at all. Created few good chances, Rodgers doesn't trust Moreno anymore to start games, so he plays Gomez out of position which, as in the first goal yesterday, meant he was trying to block/clear with his wrong foot and got it all wrong. I have no idea where he wants to play Firmino - and I'm not sure Rodgers does either - but he hasn't really got into any games so far and isn't playing those little defence-unlocking passes that a creative player behind the striker needs to be doing.

We also had Milner running all over the place yesterday, meaning he wasn't holding any particular position and that gave West Ham far too space to play and move into. And as for up front, well I said after the Bournemouth game that I don't think Rodgers knows how to treat strikers; you can't persist as long he has with one up front if you have a clue, because it hasn't worked, well, ever. Benteke is a good player and of the scant chances he's had, he's had to work hard to create from nothing mainly, because Coutinho has been the only runner trying to support play. You could look at loads of our games over the last year or so and see attacking moves where we have no numbers in support of the attack. It's incredibly frustrating.

I guess the upshot is that, at the moment, we don't really look any better than last season.

[Gabe]

Unlike many of the rest of you, I didn't feel like we were lucky against Stoke. I saw that as a good win and a decent performance because we were controlling the space and pretty much looked content to take a point until one of our match-winners pops up with a bit of quality to make the difference. To me, the way we approached that game was smart and showed that Rodgers had maybe learned his lesson. Bournemouth was frustrating and lucky but we at least looked solid and hard to play against. But yesterday was just the same old dumb decisions costing us dearly.

The reason I don't think we played particularly well against Stoke is the simple fact that the team that was sent out and set-up was not one that was aimed at getting a point. It was a positive line-up, and to not have our first effort on goal for an hour is frankly poor.

[glb]

I feel like we've never had an answer that wasn't called Suarez for teams that set up like that against us. I was really hoping Benteke would help address this but then we go back to pissing about, playing very narrow and trying to play endless triangles in midfield. Get high and wide, make diagonal, overlapping runs and get some crosses in for the big man. In theory, we have the players to beat that style now. He just needs to utilise them properly.

Therein lies the rub. Read plenty about Benteke being much more than a target man, and clearly he has skill, decent movement and can hold the ball up well, but he currently appears to be deployed just as a target man and often looks completely isolated.

To try and avoid sounding overly negative, the side did at least attempt to play the ball into wider areas at times yesterday in an effort to stretch West Ham, albeit the players doing so didn't look remotely on each other's wavelength, so passes were overhit or misread. That at least can be ironed out and attributed to early-season rustiness. Maybe that's being too soft, but in truth I'm clutching at straws to find anything else positive from yesterday that might bode well for the impending trip to Old Trafford.

[glb]

Just saw this on Twitter:

5 years ago, Liverpool were ranked 11th in Europe. Today, after spending £350m, they are ranked 42nd.

Well, that's one in the eye to anyone who says money buys you success!

[dogsout]

That's some misleading gross spend figure, though, isn't it? And probably only transfer fees at that.

[Oh Danny Boy]

My worry is that we have been hammered well too many times under Rodgers. There's no excuse for it. We have some very talented attacking players that are not being utilised so far. A worry for sure. When Sturridge comes back surely we'll be playing with two? I gave Rodgers the benefit of the doubt last season but we have to improve this year or I'm sure he'll be out.

[Gabe]

Who would he leave out though? And what other problems would that create? We don't have any genuine wide-men now (Ibe at best, but he's been very disappointing so far this season), so going to a flat 4-4-2 wouldn't work and if you have a diamond with Firmino at the top and Phil on the left you have to have one of Henderson or Milner sitting, with the other on the right - more players playing out of position. It's also very hard to see how Lallana is going to get games other than the second-string now, too.

It's odd as well that, if you look at the current first team on the Wiki page, our squad seems to have fallen back to not having much depth again. We don't have enough depth to have a team for Europe that sees lots of changes from the preferred league starting 11 (not if we actually take the competition seriously, that is). How did that happen?

[glb]

That's some misleading gross spend figure, though, isn't it? And probably only transfer fees at that.

Yeah, should have some caveats attached. It's sensationalist, so took it with a pinch of salt but still sad to see how we've fallen down the European rankings since that golden period in the mid-2000s.

[Istanbul]

Yeah, should have some caveats attached. It's sensationalist, so took it with a pinch of salt but still sad to see how we've fallen down the European rankings since that golden period in the mid-2000s.

Hicks and Gillet. They're to blame.

[Rev]

I think a lot of it is due to the moneyball philosophy that we seem to have adopted. In some ways I quite like, and agree, with it. I used to do the same sort of thing when I played Football Manager long before it became a common term. It has to be done for the benefit of the team first though and Liverpool don't seem to be doing that. We have so many attacking midfielders as they're the sort that go for the largest/most inflated prices. Markovic has been loaned out in the hope of increasing his presence in the shop window and many others, who might not make the cash in bonanza that was hoped for will just be moved on, Sterling worked out in that regard, even Suarez could be considered part of it.

Buying players young, when they're cheaper, and then building them up is a good idea and in many ways I prefer it to buying established 28 year olds but you need to keep those decent players and make them work for you rather than become a sort of processing factory for other teams who can afford to let us bed the players in for them. That's what's going on at the moment and I'm not sure who's really responsible but I hear it's probably the owners who see the players as a kind of stock that they can buy low and sell high once their age, experience and therefore price have increased somewhat.

We're essentially becoming a Premier League academy for the top four teams and rather than buying what we need we buy what we think they might want in a year or two.

As much as I can sort of see what you're saying, I'm not sure there is that much evidence to back that up. Firmino and Benteke are unlikely to be particularly profitable, the majority of the population of Southampton that moved en masse to Liverpool have almost no profit potential in them either. Sure, there are ones like Gomez and Ibe who look potentially profitable but if Liverpool are trying to make a net profit on transfers they're doing an appalling job of it.

Personally I think Liverpool are now barely a couple of signings off a top 4 spot and they're going to struggle to finish in the top half whilst Brendan is there. He's got every single negative aspect of Wenger with almost every negative aspect of Mourinho on top. And very few of the positives of either.

[JamesTW]

Struggle for top half? Is that top half of the top half? If not, steady on! were not that bad....I hope

[ryodi]

It feels like the second place finish was because Rodgers was lucky to have Suarez, Stirling and a fit Sturridge to outscore the awful defense.

A 6th of 7th placed finish is more likely this season and I fear for Ings progress if Rodgers is so committed to three up front which has only ever works when Suarez, Stirling and Sturridge were then and is completely unsuited to Benteke who is not much different a player to Balotelli and Rickie Lambert especially when he's isolated up front.

I expect we'll get a few more hidings this season and I just Sahko doesn't get too frustrated at being benched in favour of Lovren that he tries to force a move.

But I take back what I said earlier. United haven't look amazing so far this season so we might get a result, the team does seem to play better away from home when they are set up to counter attack.

[Rev]

Struggle for top half? Is that top half of the top half? If not, steady on! were not that bad....I hope

The actual top half.

One run of defeats like West Ham inflicted, or a fluke result like the one against Stoke last season happens at a more crucial time and you're right into that next tier and the order they finish in is as unpredictable as the Championship. Looking at that tier, there's some improved teams in there, playing some good football.

With the players Liverpool now have, the risk of getting into that sort of fight should be vanishingly small but I just don't see Rodgers being able to make the right decisions to fix things if they do go wrong. That's basically relying on luck, which is never a good idea.

[dizogg]

We finished 6th last year after a shit season and no striker. There is no chance we won't finish top half, no chance. But I agree we need to do better this season after the signings we've made or Rodgers is probably due to get the boot. He should have the entire season though.

[angel]

i dunno dizzog, there are a fair few teams who could stake a claim to be better than you. top 8 might be lucky

[rjpageuk]

i dunno dizzog, there are a fair few teams who could stake a claim to be better than you. top 8 might be lucky

Liverpool are currently 1/7 on at the bookmakers to finish in the top 6 and 20/1 to finish in the bottom half so if you actually believe this I would suggest you put some money on it as you can get very good odds.

[Oh Danny Boy]

Angel in football threads is always good for a laugh.

Even shit 'Pool last season with a make shift defense and no striker got 6th (and only because they left for their summer hols in April). Definitely got a squad that should be top four. Lets see if Rodgers can achieve that.

[angel]

dont patronise me. liverpool are currently not in the top 8 best teams in the league form wise, and they arent looking good. the squad is decent but the motivation and tactics are sub par, and i blame rodgers. assuming a top position based on a squad is pure arrogance.

[Istanbul]

Borini finally off it seems, and for actual money too.

Sunderland again.

[angel]

oh god, no. we're down anyway so fine.

[angel]

that and the fact that (as a lot of pundits and post-match interview players are mentioning) the smaller teams seem to have all reached a point where they've had enough of turning up at anfield and surrendering to a 1-0 or 2-0 defensive loss, usually with the referees favouring the more established team and ignoring often blatant away fouls/penalties.

like palace at chelsea this weekend and actually for a few years now, or bournemouth and leicester, these teams are basically saying fuck it, lets get into these teams away from home. its paying off too. teams like man U and so on are all so busy looking to pay 50m for the likes of di maria or whoever, big stars who seem to impress briefly then quickly fade, while swansea build up a tight knit squad and do damage home and away, leicester are still top 3 or so of the form league, bournemouth play an aggressive passing game through people (and should have beaten liverpool), even west ham just went yolo on saturday and absolutely tonked liverpool with basic composure, organisation and a lack of fear. its definitely a trend thats happening and i dont see it slowing down.

[Oh Danny Boy]

dont patronise me. liverpool are currently not in the top 8 best teams in the league form wise, and they arent looking good. the squad is decent but the motivation and tactics are sub par, and i blame rodgers. assuming a top position based on a squad is pure arrogance.

Well currently Liverpool are top 6 form wise if you care to take a look at the table. Tell me eight teams that will definitely finish above Liverpool?

In other news Borini could be off for £10m, good old Sunderland.

[Gabe]

This was kind of my point about Swansea. We'd expect to finish above them and yet, if we were playing them anytime soon I'd expect to lose so why would I expect to finish above them? There's a certain amount of football inevitability about it where you just assume we'll be around there because we always are. I agree that we probably should be based on squad strength but these beatings are becoming more commonplace and I can think of at least seven teams who I'd expect to lose to right now. That might not translate to them all finishing above us in the past as those sides tend not be very consistent but any consistency we had has pretty much disappeared too.

As I said above, I'm not sure our squad is all that strong. We don't have adequate central midfield cover for when one of Henderson or Milner gets injured; we have no right back, we don't play our actual left-back (and Enrique is currently frozen out too), we have Ibe as our only wide-man and neither of our goalkeepers are top-tier. We have cover, of varying ability, for the number 10 position, CB and striker slots. Outside of that, our bench is not full of players who you think are pushing the starting 11 for a place in the team.

Outside of that, I don't think that there are any easy games anymore, certainly over the last 2-3 years, for any team. Whether that's because the overall quality in the league has improved or there's some regression to the mean is open to debate. But results like Leicester v United last year, or the Swansea v United or West Brom v City, Palace v Chelsea etc are becoming less real shocks and more expected every once in a while.

[angel]

Well currently Liverpool are top 6 form wise if you care to take a look at the table. Tell me eight teams that will definitely finish above Liverpool?

In other news Borini could be off for £10m, good old Sunderland.

'definitely'. no ones talking in these terms, so please dont try to go all definitive, this is all speculation based on opinion. for someone declaring himself a great pundit who 'always has a laugh' when someone like myself discusses something, you come across as a bit of a condescending armchair non-expert.

8 teams who i think have a reasonable shout at finishing above liverpool are:

man city

man united

chelsea

arsenal

swansea

spurs

everton

crystal palace

2x bonus ones, southampton and stoke

im not saying that is in any way definitive, but your attitude of expectance reminds me of your team.

[ryodi]

Borini has gone. Good luck to him I hope his Sunderland contract has a relegation release clause.

[Oh Danny Boy]

Enrique apparently on his way to West Brom too. Teams get desperate on the last day of the window.

Shame we aren't looking for a winger now we sent Markovic on loan, its not like we haven't got the money to spend after selling £60m+ worth of players.

'definitely'. no ones talking in these terms, so please dont try to go all definitive, this is all speculation based on opinion. for someone declaring himself a great pundit who 'always has a laugh' when someone like myself discusses something, you come across as a bit of a condescending armchair non-expert.

8 teams who i think have a reasonable shout at finishing above liverpool are:

man city

man united

chelsea

arsenal

swansea

spurs

everton

crystal palace

2x bonus ones, southampton and stoke

im not saying that is in any way definitive, but your attitude of expectance reminds me of your team.

The only teams from that list which have looked solid so far this season are Man City and Swansea.

[Gabe]

Crystal Palace have looked very useful ever since Pardew went back there, too.

Anyway, glad Borini has gone, never worked out. I suppose that's good business for us, to recoup what we paid (more or less).

[angel]

Enrique apparently on his way to West Brom too. Teams get desperate on the last day of the window.

Shame we aren't looking for a winger now we sent Markovic on loan, its not like we haven't got the money to spend after selling £60m+ worth of players.

The only teams from that list which have looked solid so far this season are Man City and Swansea.

you really think so? man U have been solid if unspectacular and i think will finish 5th, palace have looked pretty neat so im not sure why youd not think theyre capable. im a big fan of pardew, as much of a womanising pillock he is, he gets results. everton have looked decent, and you could bet your mortgage on the arse finishing top 4. chelsea will pull themselves together and probably grab 2nd behind city, spurs are slow starters and should easily be top 8 material.

my prediction for liverpool (if they keep going like this )would be probably around 6th or 7th but thats certainly not guaranteed.

re: borini, sunderland are absolute idiots, we havent got a clue in the market - borini doesnt want to play for us as hes demonstrated repeatedly. i dont blame the guy, but fucking hell, dont sign him.

[Gabe]

Well it's a bit late for that, given that's he's now signed. I'm surprised he didn't dig his heels in though, both Inter and Fiorentina had bids turned-down. I guess any game time - even a likely hard season with Sunderland - is better than the sum of nothing he would have got with us this season.