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glb

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Gabe

Gabe

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My take is more than one player like Suarez or Bale does not on their own make a team great but the effect they have covers cracks, i thought last season that Liverpool have a pretty terrible back four and very average keeper and much like the Spurs defence last season without Bale ahead they have been exposed and punished.

Well this is all known stuff, we've been rather vulnerable at the back since Rafa left really.

I think most rational fans would have hoped that this season would be about consolidating a top-4 position and making a decent stab at our first foray back into the Champions League and whilst that's still possible, we are certainly making life difficult for ourselves. We aren't playing consistently nice football at the moment, we aren't more solid defensively, we aren't outscoring the opposition and we aren't, in the main, creating a lot of good chances. Sterling has been the star so far, Lallana has shown touches but that's about it.

And then you look at the teams we'd like to be competing with and you'd say they all have better attacks than us; Sterling is probably the only player that would get into Man U/Man C/Chelsea/Arsenal's teams at the moment. City carved us open pretty easily in the end and I worry about how we will deal with the others. And Real Madrid. It's going to be an eventful season, I guess.

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larrydavidsanger

larrydavidsanger

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It's not the loss of one player.

It's Sakho, Skrtel, Lovren, Mignolet in the main, they all have a knack of losing concentration at key points in games.

It's the general team performance at set pieces, they just don't seem to be able to organise to begin with and now a loss of confidence is making everything worse, Henderson should have really got to the ball at the back post or at least made it difficult for the West Ham guy that headed it on.

It's Gerrard not looking up to the pace of it any more, he and Rodgers both need to think about whether playing him every week is hurting the team. I'd love to see Can get a chance in that position when he gets his fitness back.

It's the lack of pace and urgency in our play, far too often we're happy to play it round the back to maintain possession without really ever progressing up the pitch. This also goes for the times we've refused to just hoof it clear and instead pass it to someone else five yards away while we're in our box surrounded by opposition. Our defense needs to get back to basic defending and doing that right before trying to do the fancier stuff. That should be our desired outcome but as Gerrard said midweek we need to learn to crawl before we can walk.

It's our injuries to Sturridge, Allen, Can, Flanaghan

It's the fact that more and more teams are realising you can nullify us by scraping into a lead and then just sitting back soaking up the pressure. This is where the loss of Suarez is felt the most in my eyes, not so much his goals but the fact that he pulled defenses all over the place leaving gaps for the rest of our attackers to target. Balotelli's not that kind of player so without Sturridge making his runs once we get into the final third we're a bit clueless.

There are a whole host of things wrong but there's time enough still to fix them all, we weren't convincing at the start of last season either. We really do need a fix but I'm really not sure how it can be achieved.

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dogsout

dogsout

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@tbb: we were robbed in those games, just for the record.

Anyway, I don't feel quite as dejected as most of you seem. Obviously we're missing Suarez. Who wouldn't? Obviously we're still shaky at the back. 3 of them have just got here. I was fully expecting us to stutter at the start of this season; there's too many new players for us not to. My main concerns are:

1. Deadwood we were trying to shift in the summer getting in the team over some of the new players today. To me, this either means Brendan has lost confidence in the plan of switching back to 4-3-3 (can't blame him if so as we've looked at our ropiest when not playing the diamond), or some of the new guys are settling in worse than expected. Either of those reasons would be worrying.

2. Balotelli seems to be a poor fit stylistically for the system. He seems like he needs players running off him and wants the ball played infront of the defence. This probably bodes well for when Sturridge is back because it would likely compliment his style. Unfortunately for us, a large part of what made sense about bringing him in has suddenly gone out of the window. If the thinking was "we need someone that can play with Sturridge and cover for him when he's injured" we may have cocked up. He looks like he's going to need a partner, or we're going to have to play much more direct and possibly flip the 1-2 midfield to a 2-1. Which brings me to...
3. Gerrard. There's just too much space between the back line and the front line. Poor old Stevie is being asked to plug gaps that his legs won't let him. I understand the virtues of playing the 1-2. And when he's got Joe Allen and Jordan Henderson in the '2' it's not such a problem. Lucas isn't up to it and Phil was beyond shit there in the last game. I think Rodgers is very aware of this problem, hence the failed switch to 4-2-3-1 at the very start of the season. I believe the 4-2-3-1 would suit us fine if you took Stevie out of the team. This is a really tough situation for Rodgers to manage, really. You look at the space we concede with him there, and it's not difficult to understand that we need a mobile, ball-winner type playing there.

There's also slight concerns over just why we bought Lovren if he is to play at Sakho's expense. Mignolet's patchy form seems to be getting worse. And the use of the diamond in the absence of Sturridge (I'd rather any of the new guys play than see Borini, and Lambert doesn't seem to be trusted to partner Mario).

Hmm. Maybe I am quite concerned after all.

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Gabe

Gabe

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@tbb: we were robbed in those games, just for the record.

Anyway, I don't feel quite as dejected as most of you seem. Obviously we're missing Suarez. Who wouldn't? Obviously we're still shaky at the back. 3 of them have just got here. I was fully expecting us to stutter at the start of this season; there's too many new players for us not to.

There's a difference between a stutter and the abject performances we've seen, though. I fully expected that it would take a little time for a new defence to settle but I still wouldn't have expected us to lose to Villa or West Ham, nor create so little in those games. I equally didn't expect us to blast the opposition away like last season, either.

Deadwood we were trying to shift in the summer getting in the team over some of the new players today. To me, this either means Brendan has lost confidence in the plan of switching back to 4-3-3 (can't blame him if so as we've looked at our ropiest when not playing the diamond), or some of the new guys are settling in worse than expected. Either of those reasons would be worrying.

This is a good point. I'm not really sure what to read into Borini getting minutes on the pitch as a starter, even though I said after Sturridge got injured that it might mean he'd get some games. Why not play an extra midfielder? Why not trust Lambert? Likewise, I was very surprised to see Lucas get a start, though with Allen and Can both out I suppose we didn't really have options there. Then again, why was Sakho dropped? Does Rodgers believe that Skrtel is a better defender or adds better balance? As you say, if that is so, then what was the point of getting Lovren in (though in the glum mood I'm in that's a good question in itself...)

With regards to last season, it's true that we started slowly but we still won games and kept some clean sheets; the one thing we didn't do was just play plain badly. That's the difference. (The Swansea game was a bit of a throwaway of the win but it was only really the Southampton fixture we were properly poor in those first few games.)

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dogsout

dogsout

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There's a difference between a stutter and the abject performances we've seen, though. I fully expected that it would take a little time for a new defence to settle but I still wouldn't have expected us to lose to Villa or West Ham, nor create so little in those games. I equally didn't expect us to blast the opposition away like last season, either.

I was fully expecting us to drop points in both games. I thought we'd be lucky to win against Villa due to the international break and what I'd seen in the previous games. I was sure we'd lose today, though. I just don't think that it's reasonable to expect anything approaching what we saw last season at this stage. Think back to how shit we were when Rodgers first came in. Think about just how much some of the team that played brilliantly last season struggled with what he was asking of them in the season before that. I'm sure once he's had time with these players some of them are going to turn out to be brilliant for us, but they need time.

This is a good point. I'm not really sure what to read into Borini getting minutes on the pitch as a starter, even though I said after Sturridge got injured that it might mean he'd get some games. Why not play an extra midfielder? Why not trust Lambert? Likewise, I was very surprised to see Lucas get a start, though with Allen and Can both out I suppose we didn't really have options there. Then again, why was Sakho dropped? Does Rodgers believe that Skrtel is a better defender or adds better balance? As you say, if that is so, then what was the point of getting Lovren in (though in the glum mood I'm in that's a good question in itself...)

I think the answers for the above questions are purely tactical. I think Brendan doesn't fancy Lambert with Balotelli because as a pair they'd be too static. I agree with that, too. We need someone making runs in behind to make the most of our passing play, and then there's also a need for the strikers to work the channels so that we can get an overload through the middle. From what Lambert has shown so far I'm not surprised Brendan is reluctant to try it. Please note, I'm not slagging the player off here. I just think he's too similar to Balotelli, essentially.

I think Lucas only got the start as the two you mentioned are injured, as you say, and Phil is in shocking form. It's still a pretty dire situation that he's here and starting games, though. He was great for us for a while there but the team has moved on, and there's certainly no point to him playing a box-to-box role anymore. I'd have rather seen Lallana get a go there, personally. But I guess the manager was worried that West Ham would be on us (as they were!).

As for Sakho, I believe there are quotes from Brendan floating about which essentially state Lovren has a problem playing on the right. The way it read to me at the time was that Lovren would be replacing Sakho. And that's pretty much what it looks like so far. :(

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Guest

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Also what is going on with Lambert? Borini, apparently not wanted, now starts.

His early chance where he shot - squaring it would have resulted in a tap in.

Why did we even buy Lambert?

And is Toure worse than Sakho? Surely not??

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Gabe

Gabe

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I just don't think that it's reasonable to expect anything approaching what we saw last season at this stage. Think back to how shit we were when Rodgers first came in. Think about just how much some of the team that played brilliantly last season struggled with what he was asking of them in the season before that.

As I said in an earlier post, I think this is very similar to the start of the 2012/13 season.

Incidentally, I don't think we will get to the heights of last season, nor is it what I am expecting. Last season everything clicked and a number of players had the season of their lives.

I think the answers for the above questions are purely tactical. I think Brendan doesn't fancy Lambert with Balotelli because as a pair they'd be too static. I agree with that, too. We need someone making runs in behind to make the most of our passing play, and then there's also a need for the strikers to work the channels so that we can get an overload through the middle. From what Lambert has shown so far I'm not surprised Brendan is reluctant to try it. Please note, I'm not slagging the player off here. I just think he's too similar to Balotelli, essentially.

Yep, that's all fair enough. I appreciate Balotelli was a last-minute buy, so Lambert was bought early with a different purpose in mind. I wonder, if Origi wasn't on loan, if he would be getting minutes on the pitch instead of Borini? You'd like to think so.

As for Sakho, I believe there are quotes from Brendan floating about which essentially state Lovren has a problem playing on the right. The way it read to me at the time was that Lovren would be replacing Sakho. And that's pretty much what it looks like so far. :(

That's pretty baffling if true. As much as Sakho does make me nervous when I watch him, he's stronger, faster, cleaner in the tackle (if sometimes a little reckless), better on the ball and more versatile than Skrtel, but possibly will only play regularly as part of a back-3. Disappointing.

I agree that time is the key factor here to work with the players but as I've said before, the danger is that by the time things do start to click, we could be well off the pace.

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Chewylegs

Chewylegs

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My biggest concern is our defending hasn't got any better from last season, which is making me think that its our tactics that are the problem and not the personnel involved. Yes of course there are too many new players in but the same mistakes are happening whether we have Lovren,Skrtel,Sakho,Johnson,Moreno or Manquillo playing. Mignolet's confidence is shot away and I think getting rid of Reina with no replacement hasn't helped.

As for Lovren instead of Sakho, if that is the case then what a waste of money, if not, then the scouts have severely let Rodgers down as its inconceivable that they should buy two players for the same position.

I just want us to play more compact, not so open to any old team to cut us open with ease, but some serious practice in training is needed before that happens. At this point I'd be worried about any team scoring a hat full against us.

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Azrael

Azrael

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It's not the loss of one player.

It's Sakho, Skrtel, Lovren, Mignolet in the main, they all have a knack of losing concentration at key points in games.

Third goal conceded summed it up, wayward header from Sakho right to West Ham, Lovren not putting pressure on Downing when he got the ball, Skrtel not fast enough to cut out the pass or stop Fitano-guy and Mignolet static and clueless in goal.
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Gabe

Gabe

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My biggest concern is our defending hasn't got any better from last season, which is making me think that its our tactics that are the problem and not the personnel involved. Yes of course there are too many new players in but the same mistakes are happening whether we have Lovren,Skrtel,Sakho,Johnson,Moreno or Manquillo playing. Mignolet's confidence is shot away and I think getting rid of Reina with no replacement hasn't helped.

As for Lovren instead of Sakho, if that is the case then what a waste of money, if not, then the scouts have severely let Rodgers down as its inconceivable that they should buy two players for the same position.

Tactics certainly play their part, the team try to play a high pressing line which leaves gaps in midfield as the defence doesn't tend to push up that much, fullbacks aside (we don't really have too many offsides against us). Last season the midfield did better at plugging those gaps but due to form/change in players/lack of pressing from the front those gaps are being exploited more by teams.

With Balotelli being so static, is that likely to change anytime soon? I'm not so sure, and I hope Sturridge doesn't have to do the running of 2 men to compensate.

I don't know what to make of the Lovren stuff, it seems a bit odd/sad if true.

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Adrock

Adrock

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The doom and gloom is a bit strange, the season is stop start right now due to the international break and the fact that most new signings have been injured during the pre-season.

Markovic should give some impetus from out wide but didn't get a full pre-season so needs time, Can is the same and hasn't even returned yet, Allen is injured, two right backs injured which means the club are playing a youngster who was clearly loaned as a prospect for the future.

The team are missing their main striker and are trying to bed another one in to the way the club plays. Balotelli, for me, looked much better in Europe and worked a lot harder and I wouldn't discount fatigue for a decent portion of the players who played Tuesday.

Gerrard especially can not be expected to play a full League and Champions League campaign at his age but has to because of the current injury situation.

The Spurs performance is the big reason I'm not as worried as some of you lot, Everton could come a little bit early with all the injuries there are but it could also be the perfect game to get the players to focus in on what they need to do.

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